Are you a ZCer?

[Hannibal]

What is WD?

Warrior Diet

[klowcarb]

Guys,
Sorry I don't want to be mean (really) but I think these types of discussions (what is ZC, with or without organs etc) are kind of tiresome. I eat only animal foods (meat, fat, eggs, organs) and have never felt better in my life. Also I think it would be rather nice not to judge or (for Katelyn) to look at ZIOH with a sense of anger. I found their behavior on ZIOH towards katelyn REALLY BAD and CHILDISH!!!!! I am not taking part in discussions on ZIOH because they seem rather childish and superficial (like fighting over who has a harder job raising kids, woman or men....) also because I hate the anti-exercise atmosphere overe there and I love to exercise....(oh sorry didn't intend to write all this)
What I wanted to say is: I am glad that I was part of ZIOH, b/c that's were I met katelyn and she was one of the main drivers for me to have my meal at night - and both ZC and WD is, what is working best for my body and mind!
So why the talk how you define ZC? Is it really important?
Nicole

Thanks Nicole, I always enjoyed talking to you! I am glad that I have such a strong personality that I never let them bully me into stopping weightlifting. Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise. If you are on Facebook, PM me!

[PaleoPhil]

Guys,
Sorry I don't want to be mean (really) but I think these types of discussions (what is ZC, with or without organs etc) are kind of tiresome.

Exactly--the frequent debates caused by the combination of all that confusion and dissension over ZC plus the fact that no one is truly zero carb makes the term worthy of burying so that there will be less discussion about it. I think the reason the term survives is that it's convenient to write just two letters, but if we could get alternative acronyms going, like RC (raw carnivore), RPC (raw pure carnivore), and RM (raw meat) I think there's a chance that would eventually improve both understanding and harmony.

I eat only animal foods (meat, fat, eggs, organs) and have never felt better in my life.

Liar! (joke)

What I wanted to say is: I am glad that I was part of ZIOH, b/c that's were I met katelyn and she was one of the main drivers for me to have my meal at night - and both ZC and WD is, what is working best for my body and mind!

Great attitude! You reminded me of another potential reason why the term "ZC" may cause irritation to some members here. ZIOH has given ZC bad associations. Some, like you, had bad experiences at ZIOH and may not enjoy being reminded of the place with the favorite term of it's members. Is this the case for anyone? I know I found some of the extreme dogmatism there offputting.

So why the talk how you define ZC? Is it really important?
Nicole

Not really on its own, but the frequent discussions you complained about that "ZC" causes is a real issue here. Time to kill it and end the problem for good, I say. Let's leave "ZC" to ZIOH and come up with better terms here. My guess is that most of the people here who call themselves ZCers actually eat some foods that contain more than 1% carbs, such as beef liver and eggs, so that the term does not describe their WOE well anyway.

Thanks for the input, Nicole.

[rawcarni]

Thanks Nicole, I always enjoyed talking to you! Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise.

Thanks!
Well I don't know what the % of people is on ZIOH that are sucessful or not but I think you are saying basically the right things: eating too often, not exercising, poor qualitity food-that's probably not a good approach to eating carnivore ;-)
Nicole

[rawcarni]

Exactly--the frequent debates caused by the combination of all that confusion and dissension over ZC plus the fact that no one is truly zero carb makes the term worthy of burying so that there will be less discussion about it. I think the reason the term survives is that it's convenient to write just two letters, but if we could get alternative acronyms going, like RC (raw carnivore), RPC (raw pure carnivore), and RM (raw meat) I think there's a chance that would eventually improve both understanding and harmony.

I know I found some of the extreme dogmatism there offputting.
Thanks for the input, Nicole.

You are welcome,
well for me it's realy only a term...a name...I learned about being a carnivore with the term ZC and I actually never thought that would include only muscle meat and fat...
I found the dogatisme very offputting-so I went away, especially after all my favorite members left anyway 

[klowcarb]

Thanks again, Nicole; I appreciate your support.

Phil, I DON'T want to cede the term "ZC" to ZIOH. I don't consider their muscle meat only supermarket brand no organs no strength training philosophy to be at all ZC. I'm fighting for the term. 

[King Salmon]

Most people on ZIOH are not successful because they eat too often, eat poor quality meat and don't exercise.

Isn't Charles a distance runner? So,it's just Charles and DelFuego that seem healthy on that forum? I wonder if dairy has something to do with it as well?

[Nation]

I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?

My definition of ZC includes organs and excludes dairy. I don't like the term 'ZC' at all but i'm so used to it and it's only 2 letters compared to typing 'carnivore' or 'animal-only'. Maybe this forum should find an entirely new acronym for our diet.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?

You can find posts by people who had problems with zero carb diets both in this forum and at http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/.

My definition of ZC includes organs and excludes dairy. I don't like the term 'ZC' at all but i'm so used to it and it's only 2 letters compared to typing 'carnivore' or 'animal-only'. Maybe this forum should find an entirely new acronym for our diet.

See http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/zero-carb-what-does-it-mean-and-are-there-alternative-terms/msg50150/#msg50150 for other possible terms.

[TylerDurden]

This whole business of labelling is so artificial and odiously politically correct. Raw ZC is fine as everyone understands it to really mean an only raw animal foods diet usually including raw dairy, and nothing to do with carbs or no carbs, animal- or plant-based. "Raw carnivore"  may be fine as a term for those RZCers who cannot tolerate dairy.

[Ioanna]

I don't recall anyone on ZIOH saying they were not successful, but i haven't been on that forum in about a year. What health problems did they run into?

That's because those people are kicked off the forum!

[Nation]

Raw ZC is fine as everyone understands it to really mean an only raw animal foods diet usually including raw dairy

In that case, then I am Paleo ZC, which means no dairy.

[King Salmon]

In that case, then I am Paleo ZC, which means no dairy.

Right! That's the distinction I've been looking for. However,how can ZC include dairy? Isn't lactose considered a sugar which is in turn a considerable carb??

[Nation]

Right! That's the distinction I've been looking for. However,how can ZC include dairy? Isn't lactose considered a sugar which is in turn a considerable carb??

Yeah, there are lots of carbs in milk, it is not even close to ZC. But someone can still be truly ZC if the only dairy he eats is cheese and butter, which have no carbs.

[the PresiDenT]

why do ppl even eat/drink anyhting dairy for the 'benefits'. it doesnt make sense as it has more bad side effects. i swear ppl that are paleo w dairy do it only caause the stuff is really addicting and it tastes good

[Hannibal]

Yeah, there are lots of carbs in milk, it is not even close to ZC. But someone can still be truly ZC if the only dairy he eats is cheese and butter, which have no carbs.

Cheeses have got 0-3 g of carbs in 100 g.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-cheese001000000000000000000-2.html?&freetext=cheese
That's because lactose has been broken down into lactic acid; but probably not always 100% of it.

[CHK91]

Over the last couple of weeks I have gradually reduced my carb intake. I used to be addicted to sugar in fruit even if it made me feel terrible. I felt better after shaking my addiction, although the candida die off phase was brutal.

I'm not sure if can consider myself zero carb.  I still consume dairy in the form of raw milk kefir, but I ferment it long until the sugars are eaten up. I probably will continue this until I am brave enough to try high meat. I need a good probiotic till then.

[sabertooth]

Traditional pro-biotics don't help much in the way of meat digestion and the claims that they are effective in treating candida are over exaggerated, although fermented milk products can ward off candida they do nothing to rid the gut of the conditions that allow for it to persist. Its benefits are often outweighed by the fact that milk proteins cause excessive gut mucus and keep the gut from completely cleansing it self. This has been my personal experience. I ate Kefir and yogurt for years thinking it was helping me with candida, it did seem to alleviate some of my symptoms but it never corrected the underling problems.

[CHK91]

Traditional pro-biotics don't help much in the way of meat digestion and the claims that they are effective in treating candida are over exaggerated, although fermented milk products can ward off candida they do nothing to rid the gut of the conditions that allow for it to persist. Its benefits are often outweighed by the fact that milk proteins cause excessive gut mucus and keep the gut from completely cleansing it self. This has been my personal experience. I ate Kefir and yogurt for years thinking it was helping me with candida, it did seem to alleviate some of my symptoms but it never corrected the underling problems.

Are you speaking from your experience or from people on the site?

What should I do then?

Most milk makes my throat produce a lot of mucus. The milk I drink now doesn't have that effect. I can't be too sure that it is same with my intestine unfortunately.

[sabertooth]

I ate yogurt and milk and even made home made kefer, and yes it made me flem up with mucus, but I thought it was helping with candida so I ate it anyway. The benefits are so mild and often the side effects are so mild that its hard for many people to perceive whether or not dairy is good for them in the big picture sense. Some people just don't pay close attention.

There are a lot of others on this site that will agree that dairy is a troublesome food, and I saw quickly that it wasn't good for me as well. Even if the mucus isn't building up in your throat, doesn't mean that the milk doesn't turn into a problem in the gut . Its a big grey area and I don't want to proclaim that its bad for you personally, I just think you should consider taking it out of the diet for an extended period while replacing it with more raw paleo food, and let your body decide if you are better off without it. Some people have to get past the withdrawl stage before feeling better.

I am genuine in my concerns about raw dairy, and am adamantly against the use of probiotic supplements while on a paleo diet. Its just not necessary, unless you are using dairy; then in that case it could ease some of the symptoms associated with poor digestion of dairy, but If you have such symptoms you would be better off without either .

[CHK91]

Maybe I really should get off of it.

I did notice something. I respond negatively to aged cheeses no matter what source it comes from (cow/goat/sheep). I wonder if it is because of the microorganisms in cheese or the casein. The single cup of kefir I drink doesn't give me violent reaction but it does have me thinking. Maybe I have an addiction I'm not aware of.

The first milk I drink after veganism was Holstein milk. I remember that I felt addicted to it. It's a feeling hard to explain, but it felt like I "needed" it. It took only a few drinks before I reacted to it but I drank 3 cups a day until my rashes were really bad.

Then I switched to guernsey milk. I didn't have that "need" feeling and have been drinking only 1 cup since. Maybe that "need" feeling is there but just weaker. XD

[babetteq]

I identify as a ZC'er OR a dirty carnivore. I use them interchangeably because I do eat dairy, spices, the odd herb.

why do ppl even eat/drink anyhting dairy for the 'benefits'. it doesnt make sense as it has more bad side effects. i swear ppl that are paleo w dairy do it only caause the stuff is really addicting and it tastes good

Akshully I do it because heavy cream tastes really good in my coffee. The coffee is addicting. When I quit coffee, I don't drink cups of heavy cream.  I do not get a bad side effect. I quit dairy when I first went off carbs (as a whole) and have been allergic to milk my whole life.  I now don't have any allergic reaction to it. Tasting good IS the reason. If something tastes good, but doesn't give you bad side effects, why not do it?

I probably get about 7g carbs from the dairy, then whatever is in the muscle. Liver days I'll get more.

[PaleoPhil]

If something tastes good, but doesn't give you bad side effects, why not do it?

Welcome Babette (Megan), nice to see you here.

I do suspect that taste is a key factor for many people in why they eat foods that are in the questionable gray areas of healthy dieting or in quantities and durations that exceed those of Stone Agers and modern hunter gatherers. The most emotional arguments and most fervent promotion tends to be made in favor of the tastiest foods. One positive thing they can do is help someone who is underweight to eat more calorie-rich foods and consume more total calories and thus bulk up to a pleasing appearance (especially for males, as thin males tend to be regarded by society as less healthy looking than thin females) and thus appear to confirm the "healthy" nature of these foods. Another benefit is, the tastier the foods the easier it is to stick to the diet.

For people trying to lose weight, these same tasty and calorie-rich gray-area foods can be some of the biggest stumbling blocks. They tend to have some ancestral connection (for example, it has been argued that dairy fat is similar in composition to animal body fats, small amounts of fermented milk were probably consumed occasionally by the hunters of a band/tribe not long after the technology of animal-skin bags was developed, and a certain amount of lactose tolerance has evolved in some peoples), so it's fairly easy to convince ourselves that they couldn't be the source of any problems and their tastiness and convenience are great incentives to want to keep them in our diets.

[babetteq]

so it's fairly easy to convince ourselves that they couldn't be the source of any problems and their tastiness and convenience are great incentives to want to keep them in our diets.

ah ha ha!  Yes, I will try e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. else to resolve an issue before I ditch the cream. Why? I'm a hedonist by nature. If I found that it really was a problem for me, after tweaking every other variable I could, I would ditch it. Maybe. Quality of life over quantity.  

Hi Phil! 

[PaleoPhil]

LOL, yes I suspect that taste and hedonism play a much larger role in most people's food choices than many will admit. It's refreshing to see someone admit it.

I also place quality of life over length of life. I eat raw fruits and raw honey mainly because I enjoy them, though I look for as many excuses to eat them as I can find. They do give me issues, but I find that if I give them up completely the resulting diet also tends to have problems of its own, so I'm still in the process of working out the best overall approach for my needs.