Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?

[iamthecountry]

Hi, I am into paleo but also consider myself primal and follow aajonus vonderplanitz.  I don't think its an ideology as much as a personal choice about what works for each individual.  For me, I feel raw dairy is a great addition to my diet.  How do you guys feel?

Sean

www.Raw-Dairy.com

[ForTheHunt]

Hi, I am into paleo but also consider myself primal and follow aajonus vonderplanitz.  I don't think its an ideology as much as a personal choice about what works for each individual.  For me, I feel raw dairy is a great addition to my diet.  How do you guys feel?

Sean

www.Raw-Dairy.com

I started raw dairy 3 weeks ago and so far I'm loving it.

I'm very perceptive about whats good and what's bad for my body and so far I've had nothing but positive effects and more energy from it.

[SkinnyDevil]

Doesn't work for me, so I don't do raw dairy.

But you are correct - go with whatever works for YOU.

[TylerDurden]

Dairy, raw or pasteurised, ruined my life.

Perhaps you should have made a poll.

[ster546464@yahoo.co.uk]

I dont know, but look into donkey milk, sheep milk, and goat milk if the cow milk controversy is too complicated.

[ForTheHunt]

Dairy, raw or pasteurised, ruined my life.

Perhaps you should have made a poll.

You serious?

[TylerDurden]

You serious?

Yes.

[ForTheHunt]

Yes.

That is definitely a big statement.

I am kind of worried about the milk seeing as it has such a horrible reputation on this board. But like I said, for me it's working nicely. I feel balanced, calm, more centered and my energy is really stable. It's not manic energy as you once described (if I remember correctly).

But yet with all the opposition milk is getting here I'm afraid I might wake up one day and done damage to my health.

Could you share, in detail how your milk experience was? How the whole process developed

[TylerDurden]

 I first developed anxiety-related issues. Then, in later childhood, I got a permanently runny nose because I could not digest casein properly. As time went on, I developed chronic fatigue,  severe muscle-weakness, inflamed skin here and there, permanently bloodshot eyes, low blood-pressure, teeth almost falling out,  low concetration, frequent urination and chronic constipation etc. These were wholly dairy-related as I did not recover therefrom on a RVAF diet  until I got rid of all the raw dairy from my diet.

[yuli]

That is definitely a big statement.
I am kind of worried about the milk seeing as it has such a horrible reputation on this board. But like I said, for me it's working nicely. I feel balanced, calm, more centered and my energy is really stable. It's not manic energy as you once described (if I remember correctly).
But yet with all the opposition milk is getting here I'm afraid I might wake up one day and done damage to my health.

Its like the same as with the ZC & non-ZC issue, it works for some people and not for others, that is clear. There is some long-time RAF'ers who don't complain about dairy and have been consuming it for a while.
I also feel calm energy when I eat dairy and I love the nice tasty fat it provides, I also have no problem digesting it (mind you its not milk or cream just aged cheeses, I haven't tried raw milk and cream un-aged yet). But its obvious some people just cannot physically tolerate it, just as there are people who can't eat fruit, or nuts, without feeling problems. Overall raw food has a good effect on people, but raw foods are just as different as our specific dietary requirements. Raw dairy is not paleo, however I find it a nice raw animal product with good nutritional value. The dairy I eat also has no lactose left in it, I don't know if that matters, I'll have to see when I try some raw cream.

FTH why are you afraid? You are not going to wake up one day and realize "OMG raw dairy just totally fucked me up! Now I am gonna die..." lol, if its doing bad things to you you will be able to tell gradually, see some small problems with it and what not...maybe don't eat it for a month then eat it for the next month and just see the difference, is it positive or negative....

Raw dairy is getting opposition here cause of 2 main reasons:
a - It truly gives some people problems (just like some people have problems eating higher carbs, or lower carbs, or nuts etc)
b - It's NOT Paleo! (I love the Paleo reasoning for how we should eat but I also can agree with reasons to eat raw dairy as well, to me Paleo is awesome but its not a religion I have to follow if you know what I mean, I was never one to be religious or not listen to opposing sides without logical consideration anyway)

There is a lot of controversy here about raw dairy and I think it should not be so thats why I wrote the above, sorry for babbling LOL, I mean you either CAN eat it or you can't because it negatively affects you....thats why there is a Primal Diet board here still, where raw dairy is accepted.

Blah!

[Sully]

I rather avoid dairy all together based on my experience from cooked dairy and raw cheeses.

However, out of all dairy I do the best with butter, and do better with goat dairy over cows.

[raw]

me too

[miles]

Raw dairy is not paleo

A small amount of it could be, as one could drink the milk of a slain animal.

FTH why are you afraid? You are not going to wake up one day and realize "OMG raw dairy just totally fucked me up! Now I am gonna die..." lol, if its doing bad things to you you will be able to tell gradually, see some small problems with it and what not...maybe don't eat it for a month then eat it for the next month and just see the difference, is it positive or negative....

Hm if it's slow enough change he might not actually be sure it's really happening until he's quite far along the road.

[yuli]

Hm if it's slow enough change he might not actually be sure it's really happening until he's quite far along the road.

Really? how far down the road? I am not even that far down the road and I have experienced my body better and worse due to what I am eating...anyone who can't digest/process dairy/casein will certainly feel problems over time, especially on a diet as clean as raw paleo which makes people sensitive to things that are crap...for example Tyler clearly has problems with it, if he starts eating it now he will not feel very well, he will slowly get more symptoms, but he won't die all of a sudden, and it wont be too late to stop, it easy to stop eating something, people are not that weak and most dietary mistakes can be reversed as we all know...

Most of us were on SAD before and we switched because over time it gave us problems right. But it did't kill us, well not me any way, with SAD I just felt that it was slowly and surely making my body/digestion more sluggish and more sick...so I switched and got much better...then for a while I didn't eat dairy...then I started to eat it and nothing got "worse"...sooo MAYBE it is a slow and quiet poison that is killing me ever-so-slowly that I can't even notice, in that case ANY food could be doing that to us, that is why there are some people who restrict eating/calories since they believe all food slowly kills us...but then again we slowly die from the day we're born, so who cares, its definitely nothing to be afraid of.

If your teeth are good, you feel healthy, energetic, good skin, no mental problems, no pains in your body, good digestion...then I doubt its much more slowly poisoning you then living does. I just find it funny to be scared of eating something that works for you because another person has issues with it....I have a friend who is severely allergic to salmon, if he eats it his throat swells and he can't breathe, but he can eat trout and other fish safely....am I going to be afraid to eat salmon cause of that, no way! 

[TylerDurden]

Actually, quite a number of people have found out, only after years of eating RVAF diets, that raw dairy was unhealthy for them. The real trouble is if raw dairy is only mildly harmful or takes longer to cause problems as it is then far more difficult to tell if it is not good for one. Even worse, a mildly harmful food might not  cause any obvious immediate harm in and of itself,  but could easily  greatly slow down or stop the healing recovery process completely as the body then diverts essential resources away just to deal with the problem food. This has happened with a number of people, who only really found out they did badly on raw dairy until after a couple of years or so consuming it.
 It is also essential to highlight problems with raw dairy as it is so easy for someone on a RVAF diet to blame their troubles on raw animal foods in general when only 1 item such as raw dairy may be the cause. I almost gave up the whole RVAF thing until I finally had the sense to refuse to believe in the insane propaganda touted by pro-raw dairy advocates on some other groups, ages ago.

[yuli]

I  really see your point, perhaps I too will find out that I do better without dairy after a couple more years on the diet. Ya never know...
It's just some people do consume it and do well on it long-term thats why I am saying it may depend on the person.
Perhaps right now I feel so better eating RAF that I don't even notice the effects of the raw dairy, I will find out in the end, I just don't think it will be "too late" by the time I find out (if I do)...also I don't know if it matters but my raw cheese consumption is very little compared to other foods I eat, well-aged cheese has a ton of flavor so a little piece goes a really long way for me. Maybe just like in paleo-times if killing an animal that has milk was rare, then maybe dairy should be eaten in SMALL amounts....hmmm....
Raw meat is the last thing I would blame if I feel unwell BTW, I would first blame cooked food if I ended up eating it, next I'd blame bad combination of nuts and/or fruits or just too much of them, next I'd blame the dairy and only lastly would I think about the meat (if stopping anything else has not helped). 

[Hannibal]

If someone is eager to eat dairy then it's better to eat some rotten aged cheese (from goat or sheep) or Casu Marzu.
That could be paleo food as some milk deposited in the cave by an animal could have converted into some rotten moldy "thing"

[Brother]

I believe that I do well with dairy as part of my diet. But I dont advocate dairy, because there are a lot of people who have low a low tolerance for it. I believe that the majority of people on earth are intollerant to lactose in some degree.

"Lactose intolerance is the inability to metabolize lactose, because of a lack of the required enzyme lactase in the digestive system. It is estimated that 75% of adults worldwide show some decrease in lactase activity during adulthood.[1]  The frequency of decreased lactase activity ranges from as little as 5% in northern Europe, up to 71% for Sicily, to more than 90% in some African and Asian countries.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

by nation:


So Tyler and other dairy opponents/sceptics are entirely right in their observation, but this does not rule out that there are people who can tolerate and do well with it. If you look at the map however, it becomes obvious that we are in the minority. So whenever someone asks the questions "is dairy right for me", the correct answer is. "I dont know, try it" and then tell people that if they get any reaction to it like a build up of mucus in their throat (often an instant reaction), you should probably stay away from it.

Not that mucus is bad by itself should be said. But when it comes as an more or less instant reaction to something you eat, I would pay attention to that.

[Laddox]

Prior to eating RAF, i couldn't do dairy at all without super amounts of phlegm, from cheese, and bloating and gas from raw milk. But before i started eating RAF, i went on a 13 day fast (water only) I came off the fast with the intention of following Aajonus's primal style diet, and found that raw dairy was fine. In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff! So now i have raw milk and raw butter daily. No phlegm, and no bloating.
But its early days for me. Ive been eating RAF/Primal for not even 2 months....but hey....i feel better than ever. So far.....

But i will definitely cut it out if i feel any trouble brewing, but at the moment, i crave it more than not.

[TylerDurden]

Cravings for the very food one is allergic to are extremely common.

[Hannibal]

In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff!

It's a drawback.
Opioids are the culprit.

[Brother]

Cravings for the very food one is allergic to are extremely common.

Interesting. Do you know of any litterature on this? I often have crawings for refined sugar, but quite clearly I am allergic to it.

[TylerDurden]

Interesting. Do you know of any litterature on this? I often have crawings for refined sugar, but quite clearly I am allergic to it.

No idea re literature. I only heard of this from other raw-dairy-sufferers who stated that cravings were a common phenomenon among allergy sufferers. Checking online suggests that the cravings are caused by a rush of endorphins produced by the body so as to make you feel good and avoid feeling the withdrawal symptoms after cutting out that allergenic food.

[ForTheHunt]

Prior to eating RAF, i couldn't do dairy at all without super amounts of phlegm, from cheese, and bloating and gas from raw milk. But before i started eating RAF, i went on a 13 day fast (water only) I came off the fast with the intention of following Aajonus's primal style diet, and found that raw dairy was fine. In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff! So now i have raw milk and raw butter daily. No phlegm, and no bloating.
But its early days for me. Ive been eating RAF/Primal for not even 2 months....but hey....i feel better than ever. So far.....

But i will definitely cut it out if i feel any trouble brewing, but at the moment, i crave it more than not.

Exact same thing happened to me.

Before my fast I couldn't touch dairy, same reasons as you.. I could just feel my lymph nodes swelling up and my ears getting stuffy. But after the fast I couldn't feel a thing.

[djr_81]

I think Brother has the most pragmatic approach to the dairy issue. Many people on this planet do not have the ability to handle dairy properly but some do. I don't believe there is inherent harm with trying it to see if it works for you but foods can have steadily worsening effects on one's body at such a rate that someone might not notice until a drastic change is made. I speak from the experience of all my food allergies which were exactly in this capacity.
I think we can all agree that the quantities of dairy that are consumed by most primal dieters are not a truly sustainable quantity, particularly in paleo times, but if it helps your health more power to you. I just suggest a cycle of time on & time off to confirm that it does not cause you problems; perhaps 2-3 months on then one month off.