Lactose intolerance

[MoonStalkeR]

With raw milk in the perspective, we can look at lactose intolerance as existing in forms. First there's the population being able to digest any lactose - including heated lactose devoid of enzymes. These are people who are supposedly genetically adapted to dairy to various degrees. Most that show lactose intolerance to pasteurized dairy don't have the symptoms when consuming raw dairy, because of the presence of lactase. However, there are individuals who get lactose intolerance symptoms regardless of the dairy being raw or not. If you know you have lactose intolerance and had experience with raw milk, vote in the poll.

[ys]

This is not a proper poll as many do not consume fresh milk.  There are more people consuming fermented dairy, cheese, butter, etc., which do not have measurable quantities of lactose.

[miles]

Fresh milk is more paleo than cheese, butter etc... If you kill a female animal it will have some milk which you can drink.

I used to drink pasteurised milk all the time and never had any overt problems that I could attribute directly to its' consumption, I enjoyed it very much. Doesn't mean it was good though. The only thing I used to have overtly obvious directly attributable problems with was grain. I've drunk raw milk once, a few weeks ago, and it was fine. I wouldn't consume it regularly, as it doesn't make sense to.

[ForTheHunt]

Fresh milk is more paleo than cheese, butter etc... If you kill a female animal it will have some milk which you can drink.

I used to drink pasteurised milk all the time and never had any overt problems that I could attribute directly to its' consumption, I enjoyed it very much. Doesn't mean it was good though. The only thing I used to have overtly obvious directly attributable problems with was grain. I've drunk raw milk once, a few weeks ago, and it was fine. I wouldn't consume it regularly, as it doesn't make sense to.

There's nothing less paleo about cheese. Cheese originally is just a storage method, similar to drying meat.

[KD]

I would say that raw butter added to RAF diet would roughly mimic our energy requirements far better than milk without any of the additional other issues regarding lactose or casein to boot. none of them would be consumed regularly in the past, and I'd much rather eat suitable foods for my present state of health that improper foods or macro-ratios regardless of how long they existed on the planet. While something like coconuts have been around for 15 million years, I am quite certain represent a less efficient and possibly less healthful fat in my body.

its pretty much impossible to attain a reasonable ammount of this 'ancestral energy' without employing modern means of freezing or rendering. i haven't had luck with the latter, and do consume many frozen marrow bones, but butter fat lasts at least one month unfrozen in my fridge and compliments a variety of foods like seafood and fruit as a fat source when pure animal fat does not.

I find all raw unsalted butter, cream, and small bites of cheese (on occasion therapeutically) to be pretty revolting eaten alone as foods, and yet eat them that way and exclude milk which I love to drink, so go figure. To me there are issues other than lactose in fresh raw milk which people are having problems with, as milk's high sugar content alone can be problematic to large parts of the population.

[TylerDurden]

Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.

[yuli]

I voted none....
However I don't drink milk because of the above mentioned reasons, very high lactose content, and lots of carbs (I prefer to get my sugars and carbs from fruits and veggies as that seems more natural to me).
The lactose in cheese and butter is negligible amount, and may not be enough to cause an allergy for me, but who knows what would happen if I took in lots of lactose every day...

[MoonStalkeR]

This is not a proper poll as many do not consume fresh milk.  There are more people consuming fermented dairy, cheese, butter, etc., which do not have measurable quantities of lactose.

It applies to fresh milk.

I would say that raw butter added to RAF diet would roughly mimic our energy requirements far better than milk without any of the additional other issues regarding lactose or casein to boot. none of them would be consumed regularly in the past, and I'd much rather eat suitable foods for my present state of health that improper foods or macro-ratios regardless of how long they existed on the planet. While something like coconuts have been around for 15 million years, I am quite certain represent a less efficient and possibly less healthful fat in my body.

its pretty much impossible to attain a reasonable ammount of this 'ancestral energy' without employing modern means of freezing or rendering. i haven't had luck with the latter, and do consume many frozen marrow bones, but butter fat lasts at least one month unfrozen in my fridge and compliments a variety of foods like seafood and fruit as a fat source when pure animal fat does not.

I find all raw unsalted butter, cream, and small bites of cheese (on occasion therapeutically) to be pretty revolting eaten alone as foods, and yet eat them that way and exclude milk which I love to drink, so go figure. To me there are issues other than lactose in fresh raw milk which people are having problems with, as milk's high sugar content alone can be problematic to large parts of the population.

Butter is a practical, easily digested, and flexible resource as you mentioned. I rarely find quality raw butter so it's not always available for me. How do you obtain your raw dairy?

[PrimalLadyRosy]

At last I got a stand mixer yesterday.  I made a substantial amount of butter with it today.  It came out better than any butter I've made or had.  I eat raw grassfed dairy, but still have to follow sensible rules of food combing and digestion.

[ys]

Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.

you know, even cyanide is very safe in these amounts, we are talking about micro-grams.  no one under any circumstances will ever feel the effect of few mcg of lactose. 

[TylerDurden]

you know, even cyanide is very safe in these amounts, we are talking about micro-grams.  no one under any circumstances will ever feel the effect of few mcg of lactose. 

The above is of course a load of b*ll and a common Primal Diet myth. RVAFers, in the past, have mentioned having severe lactose-allergies and getting nasty side-effects from eating raw butter. Some of those got negative reactions immediately while others got nasty reactions later on, after continuous consulption of raw butter.

[raw-al]

Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.

My experience is that pasteurized milk was bad news with all the usual LI issues. When I finally figured it out I gave it up. However I had no problems with pasteurized butter and ate lots of it and then I made ghee (clarified butter) with the pasteurized butter and had no problems with that despite eating plenty of it daily.
I used to find that non-raw-cheese constipated me badly but raw cheese doesn't do this to me unless I eat a huge amount of it.
Raw milk causes me none of the Lactose Intolerance issues.

[ys]

The above is of course a load of b*ll

that's just your opinion which is pretty baseless, i presented a fact that cyanide in few mcg is very safe (90mg is lethal dose) and you call it a BS?  no need to keep arguing with you.

and another thing, you keep referencing those anonymous "RVAFers" very often, well, they must be on some other forum because i did not come across many active users on this forum who are having problems with raw butter.  in fact, i think there more forum users who benefit from raw butter than your so called "RVAFers".

[KD]

My opinion is that since the amounts of lactose and casein in raw butter is so small, the actual problems that most people claim to experience regarding energy or other symptoms (or any quoted long term deficiencies) on raw dairy have absolutely no relation to known severe lactose or casein issues that people experience with pasteurized dairy. I agree with ys, and as I believe the other dairy critics claim the issue goes at least beyond lactose or having little to do with the lactose but with other (unknown and speculative) properties largely based in dairy not being consumed millions of years ago.

many people with LI do not in fact experience the same specific problems with raw milk as with pasteurized milk despite the fact that no one would argue that it doesn't contain lactose and casein. This does not make raw milk healthy per se or that it would not create other issues in people from selected from whole spectrum of health. Therefore it also does not mean that certain individuals are adapted to something and that this adaptation means they are healthy or unhealthy or that these things are fixed. All of this points to the issue being far more complicated then lactose, as all things being perfectly controlled, a person that had intolerance due to lactose in pasteurized milk would indeed have no problems with raw milk, or certainly raw butter from that perspective. With cultured butter or making ghee, ironically as raw-al points out, there are ways of essentially removing lactose thorough process of clarifying. Granted people can rightly claim the heat aspect in making this toxic, but the 'excuse' aspect ultimately falls on the side of those that get the same symptoms in the virtual absence of lactose.

In terms of imperfect non-controlled daily life, with fresh raw milk it is not as strait-forward because as I understand it, even folks like Aajonus (or at least his followers that I have talked to) agree that fresh milk might not be appropriate food at all times for everyone, particularly in the first few years on that diet. The issue often mentioned is indeed: (run for the hills) heavy metals.

While its always seen as an excuse that things like detox, interaction with existing past consumed dairy 'deposits', or interaction with non breast fed tissue or the like the are mentioned in regards to dairy, its by far the logical conclusion(s). We know that things like peanuts, gluten, and many industrial products that cause allergies can never result in good health but there seems to be some acceptance that raw dairy at least works for some people. Although perhaps this is a totally disingenuous compromise from people who just flat out believe raw butter is harmful.

Allergies that are really environmental/fungal issues seem to be at the root of all intolerance to healthy foods like seafood and fruits and the like and can usually be corrected through various protocols and might not go away just eating any natural diet. So its no mystery that if ones intolerance is due to some kind of internal build up of casein, there is no long term non-dairy approach that will necessarily fix this situation - that is if it is something one cares about.

Some people have terrible reactions to high potent raw foods that do have detoxifying effects like oysters, organ meats, high meats, and eggs which are considered to be part of a healthy diet. Its not always suggested that these foods be continued or the experiences are automatically positive for that moment, but rarely is it some element within the food that is causing the underlying issue. Its hard to speak about long term issues of magnesium ratios and so forth, but as I've said above, I've been through some negative experiences with raw dairy and still find now it to be a far better choice in fuel and more appropriate to my composition and heritage than all frozen fats or any tropical or sub-tropical plant fats.

[TylerDurden]

that's just your opinion which is pretty baseless, i presented a fact that cyanide in few mcg is very safe (90mg is lethal dose) and you call it a BS?  no need to keep arguing with you.

and another thing, you keep referencing those anonymous "RVAFers" very often, well, they must be on some other forum because i did not come across many active users on this forum who are having problems with raw butter.  in fact, i think there more forum users who benefit from raw butter than your so called "RVAFers".

You are missing the point. First of all, cyanide is not lactose, so it is an irrelevant comparison as people react in different ways to different toxins, anyway. Some can react to tiny traces of whatever particular toxin that others feel nothing towards. As for cyanide, while it is present in a few fruits, from what I understand, it is often bound up with other substances  in compounds in that food which render it ineffective re poisoning, or, in other cases, is usually bound up in seeds which only become toxic if one actually chews and breaks up  each one of a multitude of such seeds at a time ; instead of the usual bolting them down whole with the rest of the food.

The reference re "RVAFers" shows particular ignorance but is quite understandable as you have not been a RVAFer long enough nor, clearly, have you been checking such raw forums as livefood or  the rawpaleodiet yahoo group and others where it has been mentioned. This particular forum is hardly likely to have many people even bothering to try raw butter as most people quit raw dairy soon after finding out that 2 or more types of raw dairy do not agree with them. And, as regards other RVAF diet forums which are too fanatically pro-raw dairy, anyone who dares to critise raw dairy in any way, let alone raw butter, usually gets forced off the forum sooner or later.

[TylerDurden]

After some checking via wikipedia, it turns out that the previous claim that lactose in raw butter was merely a question of micrograms seems to be pure nonsense. As this reference shows, the amount of lactose in butter is c.0.03 grams per teaspoon:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter#cite_note-43

The above claim by KD re ghee is indeed somewhat compromised by the fact that heating adds on heat-created toxins to the resulting ghee. But, more to the point, there is a fallacy in the reasoning since it is quite possible for people  to have problems with raw dairy not just from lactose but also from casein, the imbalanced calcium:magnesium ratio, the hormones etc. etc. So, if someone also got issues from ghee, that would not mean that they did not get symptoms from the lactose as well. Besides, it is a notorious myth that ghee contains no lactose, it does albeit much less than raw butter.

[ys]

amount of lactose in butter is c.0.03 grams per teaspoon:-

Exactly, .03 grams is 30mcg, do you know how small that is?  about the size of the dust particle.  I agree with KD, it so small it can be ignored.

That's what I thought, "RVAFers" you are referring to live in other forums.  I am not interested in other forums.  Most people on THIS forum do not have issues with butter.

[raw-al]

Tyler,
Re ghee: I did not experience any of the mythical "heat created toxins" to which you allude. I get the impression that you make this stuff up as you go, or read reports of the people who agree with your conclusions.

Pasteurized butter is also heated, as by definition of pasteurization, but yet I did not suffer from any heat related toxins that you mention. This is my personal experience as apposed to some mythical reference to some study or Wiki (Wackipedia) link that shows a reductionist proof that butter is deadly poisonous. 

I was under the understanding that this forum was for primal dieters which means that dairy is a part of their diet and they are OK with that. So I am curious as to why you insist on ranting here about your personal issue. We all know from your ceaseless foaming at the keyboard  that you cannot eat dairy. How many ways do you have to be told this before you get the point.

Some of your posts are typed in such haste that you make lots of errors. You indicated that KD said something about ghee when it was myself. You missed the point of the cyanide example totally.

All these mythical people in the world who have issues with dairy can speak for themselves and you should speak for yourself also, because it is normal to have people say things on the web which are inaccurate. If they say things then they can defend their statements.

As far as discussing fanaticism you are a fine one to be pointing fingers. Your anti-dairy fanaticism is just about as virulent as I have witnessed on any forum on any subject. At least on some forums people are saying things as a joke. You sound deadly serious! LOL

You make it sound like the millions of people in the world who are insane enough to consume dairy,  even "micrograms" (dust particles LOL ) are going to be showing up in insane asylums and obituaries. Then you'll be sorry. Give me a break.

[ForTheHunt]

I kind of get the feeling that your crusade against dairy is done for the wrong reasons, i.e. you being 'right' on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like and I think you're quite knowledgeable, but your ego feels explosive sometimes.

[TylerDurden]

Exactly, .03 grams is 30mcg, do you know how small that is?  about the size of the dust particle.  I agree with KD, it so small it can be ignored.

That's what I thought, "RVAFers" you are referring to live in other forums.  I am not interested in other forums.  Most people on THIS forum do not have issues with butter.

You were previously making up imaginary figures, pretending that lactose in raw butter was measured only in micrograms(millionths of a gram). 0.03 is substantially more than mere micrograms so cannot be ignored convincingly.

As for issues with raw butter re lactose, I have already stated that it is rare but it does exist as I have already pointed out, so should not be ignored. Rareness does not imply nonexistence, so that is just pointless. More to the point, there are many other problems with raw dairy other than lactose, such as casein-related issues, etc. etc.

[raw-al]

OK Tyler we got your point. There is one person in the world that suffers from LI with butter. And now he has been informed. (You've reminded yourself)

There are more people that suffer from the dust that they breathe at night with their mouths open, LOL than suffer from butter dust inhalation.

[TylerDurden]

I kind of get the feeling that your crusade against dairy is done for the wrong reasons, i.e. you being 'right' on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like and I think you're quite knowledgeable, but your ego feels explosive sometimes.

Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is  as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums  where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would  say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the  those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element  of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.

That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other  RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.

[TylerDurden]

OK Tyler we got your point. There is one person in the world that suffers from LI with butter. And now he has been informed. (You've reminded yourself)

There are more people that suffer from the dust that they breathe at night with their mouths open, LOL than suffer from butter dust inhalation.

Since other RVAFers have mentioned having LI-related issues towards raw butter, that is just a foolish remark, based on ignorance.

[KD]

I think if people do better on an unheated milk product that contains some or lots of lactose than a heated and basically-lactose-free product regarding their lactose specific issues, then that speaks of something worth mentioning per the OP.

As for caseine, butter can have less than 1 gram per 1/4 lb consumed or 800 cal serving. Depending on the process I imagine it can be even less than that.

unfortunately for our purposes in this discussion, neither culturing or ghee remove casein and lactose entirely. My point in mentioning ghee was how close to this model we could get and if there was a process that did (which i'm sure its feasible with a little modern technology to remove all of these atoms) that I AGREE the dairy would still give such symptoms for these people. Unfortunately for your argument, although this seems to be a concession that dairy is bad regardless, magnesium ratios and Betacellulin and Estrogens and other naturally occurring hormones (as i assume you don't mean from commercial raw milk products) are not known to cause the immediate particular symptoms often claim in people that 'try' milk or raw dairy fat. And in fact, resemble entirely other known process like fungal interaction and detox. So the likelihood is, people experience these symptoms for the very reason that is suspect, that it interacts with other damage done by past consumption of pasteurized dairy or faulty genetics and other damage done by cooked foods or infant feeding. If this was not the case, there would be no individuals that benefited whatsoever in their LACTOSE and CASEIN SPECIFIC issues switching from pasteurized to raw because they would be equally damaged by the same amounts of lactose and casein, with he only additions being heat-created toxins and additional chemically created hormones.

[ForTheHunt]

Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is  as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums  where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would  say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the  those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element  of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.

That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other  RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.

Yeah, and your approach doesn't sound much different than theirs. Except in the opposite direction.

Anywho, CBA to argue.