Gut bacteria

[Celeste]

Agreed, you were right Iguana. It's no wonder you've managed to stay on raw Paleo so long. If you had been ZC I think you would likely have been seriously ill by now, maybe even dead.

GCB was right to suspect that a raw diet too heavy in meat is problematic and may have contributed to his wife's cancer and death, probably not so much because it contained so much meat as because of what it probably didn't contain enough of to offset the mild stress from lots of lean meat and feed the gut bacteria--resistant starch and other prebiotics.

I know I asked for this before and it was voted down, but I hope it's becoming clearer now that it's time to bury ZC and completely disassociate this forum from it. Ban the term from any forum sub-heading. It's a nightmare. It's that serious. This is not hysterics, please believe me. I tried ZC for a few months myself out of curiosity, so it's not like I'm just blindly against it for no reason. It can actually improve symptoms in the short-term, which makes it misleading and therefore especially dangerous.

It kills off many of the good bacteria. Some even said that they eventually excrete almost no feces and they don't flatulate anymore. If that's true, that's horrific, not good. It would mean very little bacteria left, thus opening the way for extremely pathogenic bacteria to step in and take over later on. Once they take hold, it may be too late. The only hope I've seen for when the problem reaches that point is a fecal transplant and maybe raw honey, one of the last remaining therapeutics that can fight the super-germs of today.

I've said it before and now I'm even more convinced--humans cannot survive without bacteria. Bacteria are an essential part of what makes us human and keeps us alive.

Wow. I think I really needed to read all this right now. Don't quite understand what RS is, but will keep reading.

[van]

I think you'd find if one did a study on the bacteria on low or zero carb, that there indeed are huge numbers, but of a different species... those that feed on fat and meat, as opposed to fibers or sugars.   And that the fungi and yeasts that plague people would have died off for having little to feed on.  Thus those who are successful with zc find little to worry about when thinking about invasive Pathogenic bacteria.     In other words,  I think you're over exaggerating the notion of bacteria free colons of meat eaters.  Look at other meat eating species. 

[Inger]

Oh my PP, you really are on a trip..? hehe

That is kind of ridiculous what you are writing above. You even suggest to get the zero carbers here banned? Wow.

I can tell you raw meat has a lot of bacteria! As has raw oysters... and seafood.. and.. about anything on this earth..lol

I really wonder how other carnivore species survive... 

[PaleoPhil]

I think you'd find if one did a study on the bacteria on low or zero carb, that there indeed are huge numbers, but of a different species... those that feed on fat and meat, as opposed to fibers or sugars.   And that the fungi and yeasts that plague people would have died off for having little to feed on.  Thus those who are successful with zc find little to worry about when thinking about invasive Pathogenic bacteria.

Great idea Van, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Prove my concerns wrong by getting your gut microbiome tested. Yours would be an excellent case.

[PaleoPhil]

Oh my PP, you really are on a trip..? hehe

That is kind of ridiculous what you are writing above. You even suggest to get the zero carbers here banned? Wow.

No, I meant that the term ZC should not be used in any of the forum titles, to avoid giving the impression that we know it's safe to try. I think the ZCers and VLCers can be especially helpful by reporting what their gut microbiome test results show. I'm looking forward to seeing those. I hope it was much ado about nothing, but I've already been seeing some negative results from some folks who were tested.

[paper_clips43]

I am sure I could find a credible source with a little research although if you have a link to a relativity cheap company that can test gut microbiome that would be great.

I can get mine tested in the near future although I am high carb but can serve as a good reference to compare with low carb.

[eveheart]

I am sure I could find a credible source with a little research although if you have a link to a relativity cheap company that can test gut microbiome that would be great.

I can get mine tested in the near future although I am high carb but can serve as a good reference to compare with low carb.

Speaking of testing one's gut microbiome, here's a podcast with transcript from ChrisKresser.com with an interview from Jeff Leach from the American Gut Project: http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach.

Jeff Leach says, in part, "What’s interesting in American Gut is we have quite a few paleo dieters that have identified as paleo dieters in the study, and we need a lot more.  It’s a group of people we’re very interested in, and we’re interested in the very low carbohydrate guys as well." There is a fee for participation.

[Celeste]

No, I meant that the term ZC should not be used in any of the forum titles, to avoid giving the impression that we know it's safe to try. I think the ZCers and VLCers can be especially helpful by reporting what their gut microbiome test results show. I'm looking forward to seeing those. I hope it was much ado about nothing, but I've already been seeing some negative results from some folks who were tested.

I am very glad that there is ZC info here, but with lots of balanced feedback on it. It helps me recognize my own prior experiences with it for + & -. I don't know any other place I would get that.

[PaleoPhil]

Jeff Leach is a good source of info and has that American Gut test, and Dr. BG also recommends some tests. Google her to find her blog. She also comments at Free the Animal.

I am very glad that there is ZC info here, but with lots of balanced feedback on it. It helps me recognize my own prior experiences with it for + & -. I don't know any other place I would get that.

Right, failure stories can be more informative than success stories.

[van]

Speaking of testing one's gut microbiome, here's a podcast with transcript from ChrisKresser.com with an interview from Jeff Leach from the American Gut Project: http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach.

Jeff Leach says, in part, "What’s interesting in American Gut is we have quite a few paleo dieters that have identified as paleo dieters in the study, and we need a lot more.  It’s a group of people we’re very interested in, and we’re interested in the very low carbohydrate guys as well." There is a fee for participation.

If you listen carefully,  Jeff iterates a least a couple of times, that he just doesn't know at this time as to whether a low carb diet that limits the amounts of starch for encouraging the bacterias that he is believing to be beneficial  to the human gut is healthy or not.    I like that he says that he doesn't know,, but it is clear that he thinks or believes it's not, as well as the host of the interview.  Having predisposed thoughts/beliefs  Can lead one to premature conclusions   One premise was that a more alkaline gut is unhealthy,, that it's prone to invading bacterias, because seemingly only acidic producing bacteria can be protective.  I find it curious that neither bring up the ph of carnivorous animal's guts or those of the inuits or American plains Indians.   Another point is that if one was to cook all their meat (for those on a meat diet) one would essentially be killing most of the bacteria at least entering the mouth via meat.   Carnivorous animals obviously don't cook, and also pick up millions of bacteria from their water source and their environment.      My guess is that the science of gut bacteria and all the variables  that exist will continue  to educate and amaze us for some time, and that we won't have the final say in any time soon. 

[eveheart]

If you listen carefully,  Jeff iterates a least a couple of times, that he just doesn't know at this time as to whether a low carb diet that limits the amounts of starch for encouraging the bacterias that he is believing to be beneficial  to the human gut is healthy or not.    I like that he says that he doesn't know,, but it is clear that he thinks or believes it's not, as well as the host of the interview. 

I think his "we don't know" statements are very responsible, considering that scientists are in the early stages of gathering data. Someone posted a NPR article that reported conclusions that aren't supported by the data at this stage of research. I wish that writers would resist pouncing on imaginary conclusions. As they say, correlation is not causation.

As for me, I'm using my VLC in a more-RS way. If nothing else, it provides a nice variety of food.

[van]

Me too. 

[PaleoPhil]

eveheart, I'm not a physician and I can't promise anything, but thyroid issues and immune system modulation are a couple things that RS is supposed to help with. Part of the Old Friends Hypothesis is that the good bacteria are well adapted to calm down the immune system (so it won't kill them) because they have been with humans for millions of years, IIRC.

It's true that we do need more data. While some of the early results are concerning, maybe we'll get lucky and it will turn out that VLC is not that much of a risk factor for poor microbiome after all. I'm looking forward to seeing more findings from the American Gut Project and I'm covering my bases and planning on asking my physician if this is something that I can get checked out, given my history of VLCing and antibiotics. I found a local medical practice that does such a test, according to the Lab company, and it was a nice coincidence that it was the practice I was already interested in.

If my microbiome is messed up, the next question will be what to do. If I have some real baddies they'll probably want to give me antibiotics. My guess is that it will be quite suboptimal but not a big amount of any serious pathogens. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, though. I'm hoping that RS will be sufficient and that I will be able to track my progress. Or maybe the result will at least be good enough that I can avoid antibiotics and wait for the fecal bacteria pills that are being developed to become widely available.

If my results are really good, then that will mean my current remaining symptoms are still largely a mystery, unless the docs come up with some other explanation. Luckily, I don't think I have a serious autoimmune issue like some folks are reporting. My improved body temperature, pulse and FBG seem to make that unlikely.

[eveheart]

My auto-immune problems are of long-standing duration, decades before I ever tried VLC and RPD, but everything I read about RS makes sense. I've even read up on fecal implants... I still get a strong "ewww" reaction, and I have no idea how to determine if I'd be a good candidate and find a good donor. My medical coverage is through an HMO, and I laugh at the thought of even mentioning this sort of thing to them. I'll just see where this leads.

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, I think I would inquire about testing before treatments. Docs don't tend to like it if you jump right to suggesting a treatment before they've checked to see if there's a reason for doing it.