Author Topic: Gut bacteria  (Read 29218 times)

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Offline technosmith

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Gut bacteria
« on: October 26, 2010, 03:27:37 am »
Hey,

Does eating raw meat repopulate your gut bacteria, or is it only high meat that does this?

I currently take a probiotic supplement. Any thoughts on this?

(I don't do dairy by the way)

Phil

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2010, 04:07:11 am »
probiotic supplements shouldn't be necessary on a raw paleo diet.On raw paleo your gut ecology should find its own balance and if you are eatting mostly meat and fat the bacterial make up of your digestive track will differ from guts full of the acidophiles strains that are in most supplements, designed for the SAD gut. High meat does help me with meat digestion, but it is not necessary in order to populate the gut with wholesome bacteria.

If you are not eatting dairy then you definitely don't probiotic supplements, accidopilus is only good for digesting dairy and plant matter. Try to age your meats slightly and if you can tolerate aged meats then try to start some high meat if you are interested in priming the gut for optimum meat digestion.

I have yet to here to compaints about aged meats so it seems like a good place to start populating the gut with meat eatting microbs
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 04:23:58 am »
Probiotic supplements are a waste of time, except possibly for EM/effective microorganisms products.

Fresh, raw meat does have bacteria in it but because the gut kills off 99 percent of the incoming bacteria, it is quicker and better to use high meat instead.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 04:59:02 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline technosmith

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2010, 04:32:56 am »
Hi,

Would it be reasonable to make high meat this way;

 - Chop up the meat
 - Put it in a glass jar with a sealable lid
 - Put the glass jar inside a plastic bucket, which also has a lid
 - Air it out everyday just by opening the lid of the plastic bucket, and then opening the lid of the glass jar for 1-2 seconds.
 - Leave for 1 month +

I was thinking of putting the bucket in the garage. Its pretty cold at the moment, so don't think it will be much warmer than the fridge.

This sound OK?

Offline Josh

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 04:40:24 am »
You can try but I bet it still stinks out your garage...

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 04:43:09 am »
Could it be that all this talk about gut flora might not be very important?

Those who had their colons removed live more or less normal lives for decades.

Offline yuli

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 06:59:11 am »
Could it be that all this talk about gut flora might not be very important?

I think its important...isn't that why when you take antibiotics and kill your gut flora you get problems?
Check on wiki how many functions gut flora has: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 08:31:26 am »
Quote
I think its important...isn't that why when you take antibiotics and kill your gut flora you get problems?

that's just a guess, nothing more.

no one disputes that antibiotics are a bad thing, how much bad is open for interpretation.
few times i had to take them i had no problems that i could notice.  the only noticeable thing was my poop was unusually soft.

most people who take antibiotics never notice any issues.

if i was selling pro-biotics i would tell you gut flora is the most important thing ever.
if i was selling antibiotics i'd tell you it is not that important.

bottom line, no one knows

Offline yuli

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 09:03:48 am »
that's just a guess, nothing more.

It's guess based on some kind of research, not a random guess pulled out of a hat... If you would like to point me to research which says gut flora is of no importance I'd be happy to read it.

no one disputes that antibiotics are a bad thing, how much bad is open for interpretation.

it is known people don't get as many problems from antibiotics if they take any kind of probiotics, even just kefir.

most people who take antibiotics never notice any issues.

true, but who is to say they aren't helping by themselves by taking probiotics, or that the ones who took it had good gut flora to begin with...

if i was selling pro-biotics i would tell you gut flora is the most important thing ever.
if i was selling antibiotics i'd tell you it is not that important.

true, but there are many sources that talk about gut flora beneficial functions that are not recommending or selling probiotics

and there is sources not against antibiotics that still say probiotics are important

all I know is, my digestion has become better with eating raw meats, raw foods, fermented foods and especially aged raw meats...
it just makes sence to me that critters in your tummy are a good thing  :D

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 09:23:46 am »
(here is my eureka moment)
Bacteria are at the base of all animial life on earth. Its the bacteria that provide us with the building blocks for all animal life. Gut bacteria benefit both carnivore and herbivore alike. Consider herbivores , they eat foliage; well with such a poor amount of nutritional value in their diet how do they get all those wonderfull b vitamins that us carnivorous type need so much of to keep healthy. The decomposing bodies of gut flora and other substances excreted by the bacteria within the gut must provide the raw materials essential for life in these tasty animals and without bacteria the herbivore could not live. So herbivores aren't even vegetarian, they are in essence BACTERIAN.(coined it myself). Even in the gut of carnivores there are other types of bacteria that can break down the flesh into more pure and absorbable fuel. As well as I suspect there could be a positive steroid effect caused by chemicals given off by bacteria that provide great benefits and promote optimum growth and vitality at the cellular level. Think about it, its the bacteria first and formost that made the primordial soup on which all multi- cellular animals need for nourishment.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:34:37 am by sabertooth »
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Offline yuli

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 09:36:44 am »
It is also known that families that over-use chemical cleaners etc, to kill all these bad bacteria, and are very bacteria-phobic about everything, get sick more and their kids develop allergies...so if this is the effect that it has when its happening in the environment around you, its easy to imagine it has the exact same effect on the environment inside you. No surprise gut flora is known to help metabolizing, preventing allergies & IBD...and the levels of certain bacteria control whether one is prone to obesity or not.

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 10:21:38 am »
Quote
Bacteria are at the base of all animial life on earth.........

you can praise all you want, but bacteria is not essential for human body.  bacteria is certainly beneficial and provides helpful functions but these functions are not essential.  that's why many people live for many years without colon (bacteria resides the colon).

think of it like gall bladder or spleen, very useful organs but not essential. 

Offline yuli

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 10:40:15 am »
yes, whats not essential can definitely be useful...
many people have wisdom teeth out, I have all mine, yeah I could be ok without them, but they are sharp as fangs and help me rip through meat and crush any food or bones...
many people successfully reproduce, live to an old age on SAD diet...so raw paleo is not essential for that, but its still a very important topic...
same with gut flora, even not essential, but its very useful, and important....

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2010, 05:23:23 pm »
I disagree, Bacteria is essential to life, if the gut was completely void of bacteria then we could not live.

The major bulk of our fecal matter is bacteria  and without bacteria in the gut your health would deteriorate and you would die. Without the bacteria breaking down indigestible matter and excreting their life giving nutrients the gut would become infested with fungus and you would die of a combination of fungal overgrowth poisoning and Mal nutrition

It is also known that families that overuse chemical cleaners etc, to kill all these bad bacteria, and are very bacteria-phobic about everything, get sick more and their kids develop allergies...so if this is the effect that it has when its happening in the environment around you, its easy to imagine it has the exact same effect on the environment inside you. No surprise gut flora is known to help metabolizing, preventing allergies & IBD...and the levels of certain bacteria control whether one is prone to obesity or not.
There is defiantly some overzealous obsessing being done about the dangers of bacteria, what is really worrisome to me in particular are the anti baterial agents that they now lace all soaps with, that crap you get in public restrooms is always laced with it. It is poisonous to humans,not only that but agents like triclosan are hormone disrupting and will damage the endocrine system and diminish the male drive and cause hormonal havoc in both men and women.(It is literally in every single personal care product given to prisoners in their care packs, if you find your self in jail be warned) even low doses have been proven to be endocrine disrupting. It diminishes overall life force and vitality by interfering with thyroid function as well.

In August 2009, the Canadian Medical Association asked the Canadian government to ban triclosan use in household products under concerns of creating bacterial resistance and producing dangerous side products (chloroform).[20]

Reports have suggested that triclosan can combine with chlorine in tap water to form chloroform ,[21] which the United States Environmental Protection Agency classifies as a probable human carcinogen. As a result, triclosan was the target of a UK cancer alert, even though the study showed that the amount of chloroform generated was less than amounts often present in chlorinated drinking waters.

Triclosan also reacts with the free chlorine in tap water to produce lesser amounts of other compounds, like 2,4-dichlorophenol.[21] Most of these intermediates convert into dioxins upon exposure to UV radiation (from the sun or other sources). Although small amounts of dioxins are produced, there is a great deal of concern over this effect, because some dioxins are extremely toxic and are very potent endocrine disruptor's. They are also chemically very stable, so that they are eliminated from the body very slowly (they can bioaccumulate to dangerous levels), and they persist in the environment for a very long time.

Triclosan is chemically somewhat similar to the dioxin class of compounds. Its production leads to small amounts of residual polychlorinated dioxins, and polychlorinated furans, which are contained in small amounts, in the products that are using it.

A 2006 study concluded that low doses of triclosan act as an endocrine disruptor in the North American bullfrog.[22] The hypothesis proposed is that triclosan blocks the metabolism of thyroid hormone, because it chemically mimics thyroid hormone, and binds to the hormone receptor sites, blocking them, so that normal hormones cannot be used. Triclosan has also been found in both the bile of fish living downstream from waste water processing plants and in human milk.[23] The negative effects of triclosan on the environment and its questionable benefits in toothpastes[24] has led to the Swedish Naturskyddsföreningen to recommend not using triclosan in toothpaste.[25] Another 2009 study demonstrated that triclosan exposure significantly impacts thyroid hormone concentrations in the male juvenile rats.[26]

Triclosan is used in a variety of common household products, including soaps, mouthwashes, dish detergents, toothpastes, deodorants, and hand sanitizers.[27] In the United States, manufacturers of products containing triclosan must indicate it on the label.

The American Dental Association published a response to the concerns stemming from the Virginia Tech study [21] stating that the study is not relevant to toothpaste.[28]

The use of triclosan as an additive for plastic production for use in food packages had not been approved by the EC.[29]
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:36:16 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline achillezzz

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2010, 07:59:10 pm »
just intersted are raw eggs contain any good bacteria for the flora?
and people say its improves digestin (raw eggs) is it because of the bacteria it offers to the flora??

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 10:18:47 pm »
Quote
I disagree, Bacteria is essential to life

to a herbivore yes it is very essential, to a human body it is not.

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2010, 10:20:00 pm »
Quote
just intersted are raw eggs contain any good bacteria for the flora?

the eggs are sterile, there are no bacteria in them,  the only bacteria it can have is when it gets contaminated from outside.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 08:27:13 am »
I still disagree; >: Gut Bacteria is essential, can I get a witness.
 
If just a couple of doses of antibiotic can cause a yeast overgrowth by wiping out friendly bacteria , imagine what would happen without any gut bacteria. Fungal life forms would eat you alive and you would die a horrible death. The bacteria provide bio chemical protection against the fungus and are essential for keeping the gut ecology in balance. Bacteria is ever present within the body's of all humans, and no one can live without it, so I call it essential.
 
Can anyone dispute this point by point
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 03:06:26 pm »
One thing I can confirm is that antibiotics use really f*cked me up. I ended up vomiting and feeling like death for days. And the idiot nurse told me that it was physically impossible to get a  reaction to antibiotics.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 08:39:43 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Roselene

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2010, 08:24:51 pm »
And the idiot nurse told me that it was physically impossibke to get a  reaction to antibiotics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancomycin#Red_man_syndrome  I wish those nurses would get retrained.  I've had an awful experience with antibiotic reaction, actually several.  Most of the doctors/nurses pretended it wasn't happening while it was happening.  Convenient for them to play that, when they don't have to suffer.  At least one doctor was good about it, thank goodness.  Even then, they should warn you of the possible dangers.  Antibiotic reactions can be very serious.

Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2010, 10:04:26 pm »
Quote
Bacteria is ever present within the body's of all humans, and no one can live without it, so I call it essential.

not true, if it were then how do you explain people without colons living more or less normal lives for decades? without any bacteria.

and second false statement, you do not find bacteria within human body, ONLY IN THE COLON, the rest of human body is sterile.

i urge everyone to read anatomy books (college level) before making dubious claims and comments regarding human anatomy.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 11:18:18 pm »
I am afraid that the 2nd is a false statement as bacteria are found in the oral cavity, the vagina and the rest of the intestinal system(small intestine, for example):-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_flora

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

While it is accurate to state that the colon harbours most of the bacteria within the human body it certainly does not contain all of them, and the rest of the gastrointestinal tract has some too.
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Offline ys

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 11:22:14 pm »
Quote
I am afraid that the 2nd is a false statement as bacteria are found in the oral cavity, the vagina and the rest of the intestinal system(small intestine, for example)
While it is accurate to state that the colon harbours most of the bacteria within the human body it certainly does not contain all of them, and the rest of the gastrointestinal tract has some too.

agreed, so here is the follow up question, bacteria in oral cavity is it beneficial or harmful?

Offline yuli

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 04:24:33 am »
I am not going to answer for the mouth bacteria, but I know the bacteria in the vagina is very useful.
Without it a woman will be prone to yeast infections and other infections, this is one of the reasons they tell women not to take a douche, because that will wash out good bacteria which will lead to an imbalance.

Bacteria may not be essential if you live in a sterile bubble, but our natural lives are surrounded by bacteria.

EDIT: oh and I am not sure but bacteria in the mouth may be used for digestion, or if you have some food particles or whatever else in your mouth, the beneficial bacteria should use that...if you only put sterile food in your mouth you may not need it but who wants to eat sterile food....that isn't healthy

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Gut bacteria
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 04:55:14 am »
you can praise all you want, but bacteria is not essential for human body.  bacteria is certainly beneficial and provides helpful functions but these functions are not essential.  that's why many people live for many years without colon (bacteria resides the colon).

think of it like gall bladder or spleen, very useful organs but not essential.  
Bacteria and other microbiota are found on all internal and external surfaces of human beings that are exposed to the environment--the skin, eyes, nose, and the entire GI tract from the mouth to the anus--not just the colon.

See:
Quote
Can We Live Without Bacteria?
http://ruralneurosurgery.org/?p=309
 
You cannot live without bacteria!
http://www.radiomartie.com/moreinfo/cant_live.shtml
 
Probiotics: Beneficial Bacteria You Just Can't Live Without
http://www.drwolff.com/articles/04032008_probiotics.html
(P)robiotics are actually defined as: "live microorganisms, which, when administered in adequate amounts, confer a health benefit on the host." (Microorganisms are tiny living organisms--such as bacteria, viruses, and yeasts--that can be seen only under a microscope.) Long story short, they're a few of the "good", beneficial bacteria that reside in our guts that we literally can't live without. And, although the majority of these bacteria live in our large and small intestines, they're also found in the mouth, esophagus, stomach, upper airway, skin and vagina.
So the answer is, no, you cannot possibly live without bacteria in and on at least some parts of your body and even people who have had their colons removed still have bacteria in and on their bodies. If you rephrased your question to be "Can I live without a colon?" the answer would be yes, obviously. However, if you have a functioning colon, then it has some bacteria in it, even if you suffer from gut dysbiosis as a result of antibiotic treatments.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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