Bodybuilder/Model going Paleo for longevity benefits

[Iron.E]

I've been bodybuilding for almost 4 years now and have gone from 150lbs to 200lbs ~6-8%BF
I do a lot of fitness and underwear modeling, but have no plans on ever competing in a BB competition.
I'm quite the longevity enthusiast, maybe even a bit of a zealot.
I truly believe that the Paleo diet is the most scientifically sound and healthy way of eating that we know of.
I don't consider it a fad diet, and I don't think of it as a weight loss diet, although it works well for that.
I've spent countless hours researching fitness, nutrition, supplementation and human biochemistry, and would now like to shift my focus more torwards gaining a solid understanding of this diet.

Sorry for the long intro, glad to be here

Iron.E

[TylerDurden]

You are aware this is rawpalaeo, not a cooked-palaeo diet?

Anyway, welcome to the forum! Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.

[Iron.E]

You are aware this is rawpalaeo, not a cooked-palaeo diet?

Anyway, welcome to the forum! Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.

Ya I'm starting to figure that out as I surf through the forums lol

It's almost like a cult following here... talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat

While I won't argue that its a bad idea to eat that way, I still choose to cook my meat.
And then some vegis like Broccoli are healthier when cooked.

I have to imagine paleolithic human beings were intelligent enough to make fire and figure out how to cook their meat...?

[Iron.E]

Good to hear you are avoiding BB competitions as I have heard horror stories re forced dehydration in order to emphasise muscle-tone etc.

I have to use the same techniques for modeling competitions. Basically tons of water and salt for a week with 0 carbs, then drop the water and salt and carb up causing glycogen in the muscle to absorb the subcutaneous water beneath the skin giving you a ripped paper thin skin look. Not healthy, but pays the bills.

[TylerDurden]

Ya I'm starting to figure that out as I surf through the forums lol

It's almost like a cult following here... talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat

While I won't argue that its a bad idea to eat that way, I still choose to cook my meat.
And then some vegis like Broccoli are healthier when cooked.

I have to imagine paleolithic human beings were intelligent enough to make fire and figure out how to cook their meat...?

Basically, a cooked-palaeolithic diet is fine for now if you are not suffering from ill-health in any real way or if you are still young. However, since levels of heat-created toxins derived from cooking, such as advanced glycation end products, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons etc. etc.  are heavily implicated in age-related illnesses such as Alzheimer`s, atherosclerosis etc. etc. it is a good idea to go rawpalaeo as one passes , say, 35, or so, IMO.

As for cooking, as regards palaeo foods, it in most cases, leads to the  lowering of nutrients to a great extent, other than the issue of heat-created toxins caused by cooking. Then there is the issue of the  healthy bacteria and enzymes destroyed by cooking. Broccoli is not really very palaeo and I doubt it was a staple in the Palaeolithic, even when cooked.

As for the when cooking was invented, despite the vague unproven opinions of 1 or 2 kooks like Wrangham, the overwhelming evidence shows that cooking as only invented c. 250,000 years ago in the Palaeolithic, which was only the very last 10 percent  of the Palaeolithic. Before that, hominids happily ate raw meat diets without issues just like wild animals.

[Iron.E]

Basically, a cooked-palaeolithic diet is fine for now if you are not suffering from ill-health in any real way or if you are still young. However, since levels of heat-created toxins derived from cooking, such as advanced glycation end products, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons etc. etc.  are heavily implicated in age-related illnesses such as Alzheimer`s, atherosclerosis etc. etc. it is a good idea to go rawpalaeo as one passes , say, 35, or so, IMO.

As for cooking, as regards palaeo foods, it in most cases, leads to the  lowering of nutrients to a great extent, other than the issue of heat-created toxins caused by cooking. Then there is the issue of the  healthy bacteria and enzymes destroyed by cooking. Broccoli is not really very palaeo and I doubt it was a staple in the Palaeolithic, even when cooked.

As for the when cooking was invented, despite the vague unproven opinions of 1 or 2 kooks like Wrangham, the overwhelming evidence shows that cooking as only invented c. 250,000 years ago in the Palaeolithic, which was only the very last 10 percent  of the Palaeolithic. Before that, hominids happily ate raw meat diets without issues just like wild animals.

You know your craft I'll give you that...

As far as raw goes, I do make a point to undercook my beef... but eating chicken raw just doesn't seem safe. Steaming vegetables seems to have more health benefits then eating them raw. Fruit and nuts I obviously eat raw.

I supplement with both probiotics and digestive enzymes so hopefully these help to displace those lost in the cooking process... or are you going to tell me that since paleo humans didnt have supplements we shouldnt either?

So because Broccoli wasn't a staple for paleo human beings you don't believe it should be for us?

Eating the TYPES of foods our paleolithic ancestors ate VS. ONLY and SPECIFICALLY eating what was eaten by them --- seems like the difference between a healthier way of eating and a fad diet

[TylerDurden]

raw vegetables generally have their cell walls destroyed by cooking so yield higher levels of nutrients and lower levels of antinutrients which is why rawpalaeos avoid them, mostly.  Raw meat and raw fruit providemuch lower levels of nutrients when cooked, however.

Chicken should be avoided  anyway even when cooked as most chickens are raised on very unhealthy(often processed) grainfed diets whereas jungle fowl in the wild eat raw omnivorous diets full of worms etc. We do not blindly just suggest eating raw, but also  aim for high quality raw foods such as raw grassfed meats or raw wild game.

Supplements are invariably highly processed or just wrong. For example, much of the probiotics are dairy-related and therefore useless re digesting other foods properly.

As for types of foods, the point is that in palaeo times, vegetables were only a very minor part of the diet - certain vegetables which have to be cooked such as potatoes were only really eaten in any quantity after the end of the Palaeolithic era.   More to the point, the type of food is irrelevant. For example, raw grainfed meat is unhealthy while raw grassfed meat is extremely healthy - same applies re broccoli as it is a useless food when raw and when it is cooked, various heat-created toxins are added as a result of cooking which negates the benefit of the extra nutrients involved. So, it makes better sense to go for raw vegetables which are more easily digested raw.

Indeed, one main cooked-palaeolithic diet dogma is that one should only eat foods which are easily edible when raw.

[ForTheHunt]

Hello and welcome,

What Tyler says is all good and well, but my tip is don't change your diet too drastically. If you intend to change it, make sure you change it over a decent period of time. Makes the transition easier. I say this because you rely on your body for income. Sudden changes may alter your physique (weight changes) etc. So it's best done gradually.

Anyway best of luck

[yuli]

Daikon, turnip, parsnip, carrot, red cabbage are all delicious when raw and shredded, and are actually less tasty/flavorful when cooked, either that or my taste buds have gone awall after raw diet lol.

Even if the vitamins are increased in veggies after cooking, that doesn't mean they are better absorbed or bio-available, or does it???
Cooking veggies also increases their fiber AND their sugar (which I don't think is a good thing)...

Is brocolli really useless?
It has a very good amount of vitamin C, and relatively NO sugar or calories...that may be useful for someone wanting some extra vitamins from natural source and NOT extra sugar from fruits....just a thought.

The only reason why I am saying this it seems that people here fear raw vegetables? Are there really that many anti-nutrients in them to make their nutrients plus the other things they contain like trace elements, enzymes and antioxidants and relatively less sugar then fruits make them that bad? They also may contain nutrients that we have no clue about yet... Just wondering...

[TylerDurden]

Well, most RVAFers find raw veg to taste too bland. Raw broccoli is really foul in that regard and has high levels of antinutrients when raw. But the real fear is against raw veggie juice as many claim that juicing not only provides far more nutrients by shredding the cell-walls but that it also increases the bioavailability of the antinutrients as well - and since juicing allows one to consume nutrients  and antinutrients from far more veg than would be possible otherwise, it is viewed as a hazard.

Cooking does reduce bioavailability of nutrients a bit as well as introducing heat-created toxins. Of course, most people do not cook veg as harshly as they cook animal foods, which is why fruit and veg are more recommended by dud modern nutritonists.

[yuli]

Ah I see, yes brocolli is pretty bland...
But some of the veggies I mentioned above are far, far from bland, it some cases they have more taste/flavor then many fruits, a lot of fruits just seem to have more flavor due to their sweetness (and some fruits are overbred/modified to increase sugar which sux), also fresh herbs and certain leafies are full of taste.
I don't juice veggies either as that means I will consume much more veggies then needed, not good or very natural....I do shred them in a food combiner though whenever I eat any...

[yuli]

Of course, most people do not cook veg as harshly as they cook animal foods, which is why fruit and veg are more recommended by dud modern nutritonists.

You'd be surprised how many people I have seen still fry their veggies into oblivion lol, thats probably almost as bad as overcooking the meat.

[kurite]

Welcome, its awesome having a body builder here! We are a bit cult-ish but its worth it . Don't worry about raw right now try some regular paleo now, you will get plenty of benefits from that as well. I agree with what forthehunt said though, make sure to transition so as not to have any major body changes which shouldn't happen but just incase. Also just out of curiosity what does your routine look like?

[PaleoPhil]

Welcome, Iron.E. The longer folks eat Paleo or carnivore, the more they tend to prefer their food to be cooked less and less. I know several Paleos/carnivores who claimed they would never eat raw meat who later changed their minds.

I used to think things close to what you've written here. While I ate some raw eggs and low-heated beef jerky and tried a little raw meat before I came here, I used to say that I didn't think it was necessary for me to eat raw meat and I wasn't interested. But then I saw how well some of the folks were doing who were eating plenty of meat & fat and mostly raw, and by accident I also noticed that I fared best when I minimized carby plant foods and maximized lightly cooked meats and fats and I decided to give raw carnivore a try. Check out Lex Rooker's journal, which helped motivate me to get going on trying it out.

....Eating the TYPES of foods our paleolithic ancestors ate VS. ONLY and SPECIFICALLY eating what was eaten by them --- seems like the difference between a healthier way of eating and a fad diet

I eat what I do because it works for me (see my signature), not because it was the types of foods of our ancestors or only and specifically what they ate or because it's a fad or not. The evolutionary template/blueprint has served me well as a clue about what to try and as an explanatory model, but the final determiner for me is my own experience.

Years ago I wouldn't have dreamed that what I eat now would turn out to work best. You may end up being surprised to learn what works best for you, if you experiment. The old saying comes into play here: "Don't knock it till you've tried it." You're also free to eat whatever you choose, of course. So "live and let live" is also relevant.

[Brother]

Sorry for the long intro, glad to be here

Glad to meet you. a physical culturist myself. Looking forward to share tips. If you are a model, I suspect there is a limit to how much mass you want. With raw paleo, no longer will you have to eat foul tasting supplements laced with artificial sweeteners.

*)The results I got on this food before an injury put a momentary stop to my progress was nothing short of incredible. For the first time in a gym, I actually had the thought that I should probably start to cool down on bulking before I turn freakish. This in just 3 months. I can start out slowly in the next week or so, so I will be posting my progress here when I am back on track. If you try out raw, I encourage you to do the same. And...expect to get flu like symptoms for a week or so, if you do the shift.

talks of drinking blood and eating raw meat

  Just like your phsyical cultures ancestors. Armand Tanny, Vince Gironda, Jack Lalanne (/oh yes, Jack used to eat meat and drink blook together with Tanny), Bill Pearl etc.. All these impressive physiques was carnivorous to the bone. Tanny was raw all the time, Vince most of the time, Jack turned vegetarian again, but while they bulked. Back in the days, raw meat and fat was the stuff.

but eating chicken raw just doesn't seem safe

I have had not problems with raw chicken or eggs. The first week I had a rinse out and flu like symptoms. Went away and theres been nothing since. I dont eat raw chicken though, just tried it. I do not care for the texture. Eggs are great though.* hums the theme from Rocky*

[B.Money]

*)The results I got on this food before an injury put a momentary stop to my progress was nothing short of incredible. For the first time in a gym, I actually had the thought that I should probably start to cool down on bulking before I turn freakish. This in just 3 months. I can start out slowly in the next week or so, so I will be posting my progress here when I am back on track. If you try out raw, I encourage you to do the same. And...expect to get flu like symptoms for a week or so, if you do the shift.

What/how much do you eat daily? I have been eating RP for about 6 months now and been consistently powerlifting for the last year and a half or so. My weight actually went from a chubby 190 (maybe 13-14%) to a lean 158. So as you can see I have been noticing anything but the explosive muscle growth some people are talking about. Even at a light 158 I would still be unable to maintain this weight if it was not for eating lots of dairy.

I just find the lack of starch and grains (and overall calories) hard to gain muscle on--so just curious, and am super interested in following your progress.

[KD]

I can only echo much of what is already said here. I mean if the forum was about sky diving, it might not be appropriate to question the problem of jumping out of planes randomly. Given the proper understanding, method, and experience, you might have a good time . certainly not dieing from this stuff is probably a big relief for many at first.

on the negative, unfortunately there is not alot of proof (other than some of the science ironically) that the types of approaches discussed here will get you better results in your field, but hopefully they will indeed make you healthier long term. There are some past pioneers, but largely its about undergoing your own unknown investigation.

I've been bodybuilding for almost 4 years now and have gone from 150lbs to 200lbs ~6-8%BF
I do a lot of fitness and underwear modeling, but have no plans on ever competing in a BB competition.
I'm quite the longevity enthusiast, maybe even a bit of a zealot.
I truly believe that the Paleo diet is the most scientifically sound and healthy way of eating that we know of.
I don't consider it a fad diet, and I don't think of it as a weight loss diet, although it works well for that.
I've spent countless hours researching fitness, nutrition, supplementation and human biochemistry, and would now like to shift my focus more torwards gaining a solid understanding of this diet.

Perhaps there is some way to group those goals with RPD, or
not trying to brush you off, but here are sites you might also find helpful or conducive to them.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/
http://cavemanforum.com/
http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/

[TylerDurden]

Well, one thing re rawpalaeodiets I have noticed is that they help lose weight much better than other diets and help build muscle quicker(though only with exercise of course).

[Brother]

What/how much do you eat daily? I have been eating RP for about 6 months now and been consistently powerlifting (*) for the last year and a half or so. My weight actually went from a chubby 190 (maybe 13-14%) to a lean 158. So as you can see I have been noticing anything but the explosive muscle growth some people are talking about. Even at a light 158 I would still be unable to maintain this weight if it was not for eating lots of dairy.

I just find the lack of starch and grains (and overall calories) hard to gain muscle on--so just curious, and am super interested in following your progress.

I eat a lot when I train for mass. 10-15 eggs. 1-2kg of beef, 2-8 pints of raw milk, or 2-400g cheese (the reason I have a range on them is because i tend to make variation on how much I eat per day from each. All depending on mood that day). I add in raw liver for a week every month. Plenty of water throughout the day. I eat vegetable fats like avocado and coconut for snack. Never together with the meat tough because they require different environments to break down properly. Add in Fish oil.

(*)Unless powerlifting is slang where you live for bodybuilding, then you are doing it wrong. If what you want to achieve is more mass, then you should train for more mass. It is a common misunderstanding that strengh and muscle size correlate by default and thus if you just lift harder you will get bigger. You will certainly get stronger, but if that is not your goal.

Take a look at these articles for some good pointers.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker25.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/becker26.htm

[Brother]

on the negative, unfortunately there is not alot of proof (other than some of the science ironically) that the types of approaches discussed here will get you better results in your field

...bro


http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/20591/
(comment on the article: "These dangerous raw foods didn't appear to harm him...he passed away at 90.") lulz...

[goodsamaritan]

Hi Iron,

I look at longevity too and am gunning for 120 years old and above.
Aajonus Vonderplanitz thinks that people are not fully adapted to cooking.
This is why people are allergic to cooked meats, allergic to cooked vegetables, allergic to cooked fruit.

Funny how recently i just came across Aajonus' old writings that some people are indeed allergic to cooked green vegetables.

Got me thinking how my son got tuberculosis.

As for raw chicken, I don't like the taste of raw chicken.

But RawZi likes raw chicken.

[B.Money]

Brother- glad you took the time out for a reply. Looks like we eat similar amounts but you know, maybe you are right about the powerlifting/bodybuilding thing--maybe is because I have just been training low volume. With all this talk lately about "get stronger to get bigger" (it's the new thing) I guess its possible I have taken it too literally.

Have you followed the 10x10 routine with success?

edit: I also did not realize some of these old-time bodybuilders ate raw animal products--interesting!

[TylerDurden]

I think it would be a good idea to do a piece on RVAF diet  bodybuilders on rawpaleodiet.com. Randy Roach's article would be ideal, but anyone with more info would be welcome:-

http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health/252-splendid-specimens.html

[TylerDurden]

Armand Tanny is definitely a RVAF diet inspiration. I would have loved to have got his autograph or somethiong before he died at the ripe age of 90.

[Brother]

get stronger to get bigger (it's the new thing)

It was a heated issue allready back with Tanny and those guys. Personally I think Vince Gironda had it more or less nailed down. Everybody he touched turned into pure gold. I have tried all kinds of mixes of reps, HIT, Teared pulls...I think it comes down to you personally. You need to find out what works the best for you.

Have you followed the 10x10 routine with success?

I read that as "ten sets of ten repetitions". I think that sounds like total overkill. With a very low weight as part of loosing fat, sure, makes sense,  but for mass?. No. Pointless at best.

edit: I also did not realize some of these old-time bodybuilders ate raw animal products--interesting!

"Athletes of the 1960s used a variety of recipes, varying the proportions of Blair’s protein product with raw cream, raw milk and raw egg yolk. Weight-trainer Don Howorth remembers eating 3 dozen eggs, 1 quart raw cream, and 2 pounds ground sirloin along with 2-3 cups of Blair’s protein powder per day."

"Gironda often stated that nutrition was 85-90 percent of bodybuilding. His alternative to drugs was eggs. Like Blair, he advocated up to 36 eggs a day for 6 to 8 weeks to produce muscle buildup. (He also took, among many other supplements, "orchic tissue tablets," that is, dried testicles.)

He recommended following this "anabolic phase" with a short-term vegetarian diet to "re-alkalize" the body. Similarly he alternated a low-carbohydrate diet with periods of carbohydrate loading. He was careful to point out the difference between natural and refined carbohydrate foods"

-Splendid Specimens: The History of Nutrition in Bodybuilding By Randy Roach