Sleepless...

[MrBBQ]

Hey all,

I'm in a fairly desperate state and wondering if anyone has any advice or an explanation of what happened to me.

I'd increased my meat last week from 150g-200g to 300g and after meals noticing bloodshot eyes and general fatigue. The night afterwards (last Thursday) I was truly wired and could not drop/nod off as if I'd had caffeine or something (although I hadn't had any stimulant).

Since then, I've been experiencing severe sleep disturbances, either not really sleeping at all or sleeping and then waking at 3am/4am/5am, which is really abnormal for me (normally sleep right through).

Currently, I've been dragging myself to work like a zombie and somehow managing to pass off as a diligent professional, although I can imagine that I'm running mainly on adrenalin, which cannot be good. I look and feel terrible - like an old man with bloodshot eyes.

This event definitely coincided with the increase in meat per day, which seems to have unbalanced my neurotransmitters and/or stress hormones (e.g. cortisol).

I've been trying to benefit from some rest, but frankly, I'm going downhill fast without the regenerative REM/delta sleep that we all need.

Herbal remedies like chamomile and valerian amongst others have kept me a little relaxed, although this state will not be sustainable for long and I can imagine a visit to a naturopath soon.

Suffice to say I've scaled back my meat/fat rations to the previously prudent level.

Can anyone help me or did anyone have the same experiences with self-resolution later on? I'm getting to the point of desperation with this spectre...

Thanks for your help.

Best,

Scotty

[TylerDurden]

In my pre-raw days I would take  2 melatonin pills before bedtime for my chronic fatigue. They worked but, over time, they stopped working and had no effect on me anymore.

Try doing Intermittent Fasting, perhaps?

[ForTheHunt]

First off, just relax. This will pass. We've all had something like this happen. It always passes.

So don't get super anxious. I know it seems hard but I think key here is just relaxing and allowing what ever happens to happen 

[MrBBQ]

Thanks Tyler - I've been thinking about that hack, even if not food-based...What was your ultimate CFS hack?

ForTheHunt, I always appreciate your wise counsel - I'm certainly trying to be Zen, even though I'm feeling/looking awful. One can only do one's best in a given situation - the rest is up to the cosmos...Sleep deprivation has its potent psychological effects tho'...

[TylerDurden]

Well, simply getting rid of raw and pasteurised dairy and eating some raw meats helped get rid of my CFS symptoms, though it took 4 full months to get rid of it all. Also, many RVAFers suggest eating raw organ-meats as the higher nutrient levels in them seem to speed up healing.

You could also try high-meat though this is usually only recommended for those with 1 years RVAF diet experience. High-meat really does help boost one's mood and energy levels.  I wish I had had the guts to try high meat right from the start.

[goodsamaritan]

Try a 3 day orange juice fast.
It's not always eating time.
I just finished a 3 day coconut water fast.

Do not watch TV, at all.
Replace all your room lights with warm white.
Stop using computers and cell phones by 7pm.

Look up EFT and other healers like Dr. Leonard Coldwell who i inspirational and can teach you to relax.

[yuli]

Hey,

I always get sleepless when I change things in my diet, especially quantities of meat and fat, fruit....I think your brain just needs to adjust to it, like others above said.
The funny thing is I'll get insomnia if I eat too much, but once I do fall asleep, I'll sleep at least 8 hours straight. Of course if you have to go to work that doesn't work out so good 
Most people have their big meal at night...but what if you try eating earlier in the day and go to sleep hungry/empty stomach, maybe that will help?
Another thing is, I get sleepless when I don't exercise enough! It's like because my body didn't move enough during the day my brain has to stay awake to make up for that, perhaps you need to have more physical activity, I think that will definitely help sleep.
If I exercised a lot, I can drink 2 big cups of strong coffee and then go to bed, when you really want to sleep you'll sleep. Getting physically tired should be able to make you want to sleep after, not right after but a little while after.
All the dietary things mentioned are helpful, but when you need to move you ass more nothing can replace that 

[MrBBQ]

Thanks for the responses, which are most appreciated.

Last night, maybe I got 5 hours sleep, which is an improvement, although today I've woken up with slight blurred vision. I just ate a meal of meat/fat/eggs and already I feel "wired" again with slight ache where my heart is.

It's as if meat/fat is stimulating cortisol release in my body and making me stressed. I'm actually becoming scared now about what I can eat anymore, given that my staple is meat/fat.

The only thing about fruit fasting is that I would rapidly lose weight and they again may affect my health negatively.

I have the feeling that my body is just giving up on everything, which is sad because I was interested in continuing to live, possibly with some measure of health (this negativity seems to be the cortisol frantically speaking).

[TylerDurden]

Eat no later than 5pm, maybe?

[RawZi]

    Are you eating red meat, white meat, a mix of the two, fish?  Are you eating vegetables in some form?  What about water therapy (shower, bath etc)?

[Brother]

First off, just relax. This will pass. We've all had something like this happen. It always passes.

So don't get super anxious. I know it seems hard but I think key here is just relaxing and allowing what ever happens to happen  

I double this. I have had those lows. Usually it helps me to just ramp up my fat intake. I mean go on a fat binge! If that does not help after a few days, then I load on carbs throgh berries (a single days binge, usually makes it go away).

if you have tried all the advice people have to offer and you find no change in your condition. Then I would get hold of some Kava (Piper Metysticum/Intoxicating Pepper) and drink that before night time for a couple of days. If you are not one of the people who are immune to kavalactones, a large dose (1g or so) of them will introduce a heavy dreamless sleep from which you wake up really well rested. I suspect that a couple of days, a week at most with a cup or 2 would do the trick. But this is just a symptom treatment that can help prevent you from going into a spiral of stress over it, which itself is draining on your resources. It does not adress whatever issue there might be.

[Ioanna]

is it possible that this was too much??.. did you increase out of hunger?  eating too much of even the foods that have been most beneficial to my recovery DOES NOT work for me. eating late at night also does not work well for me, i am very much awake after eating.

[shel]

hi Scotty. maybe i can help.

i've been lurking around here for a while and may as well dive in for this one.

i think i might know where you're coming from regarding your problem. i started an experiment involving mostly meat and fat with bone broths (WAPF's purported miracle elixer... hah!). the pounding heart and vibrating anxiety (especially at night) that i developed within about 4-5 months left me in much the same state as you. haggard and burnt out.

regarding broth, it seems that some have bad reactions to isolated amino acids (in my case, tyrosine and other amino acid supplements, and the cursed glutamic acid. a pox on WAPF's house! ). bad hydrolysation effects for some of us might be another reason to go mainly raw.

the crap i went through only stopped when i quit eating so much fat and protein and those stupid bone broths. if i ate one or the other, nothing changed. i don't do well on a high fat or fat/protein diet. my backpacking, cycling and mountaineering suffered big time.

everyone is different, and i don't make unequivocal statements about what others should eat. some do well eating only animal products. good on 'em. but maybe you are thinking too much about diet, and worrying, like some others, about starch, fruit and phytotoxins in veggies etc. maybe one who doesn't have problems with specific foods or macronutrients should simply eat more instinctively, in a general "paleo" context? i don't know...

...so this is my diet (trust me; i've done 'em all, from vegan, to down the line carnivory, to everything in-between):

morning: fruit (yes, those candy bars on trees that Harris vilifies. nonsense). 2 bananas, some pineapple or melon or whatever else moves the spirit.
lunch: meat to satisfaction, some steamed roots (carrots, beets, parsnips, etc.).
home from work: a big green salad with olive oil, cider vinegar, some chopped up meat in it, some berries, and whatever the hell else i feel like eating (in a general paleo context).

nothing written in stone, this is just a general day.

macronutrients seem to fluctuate, with fat hanging around the 50% range (gms), though i don't give a shit about it.

so, i hope this helps. good luck, and don't think so much  .

[miles]

Maybe you should try moving to Seattle.

Hi shel, good post.

[Hannibal]

eating late at night also does not work well for me, i am very much awake after eating. 

Eating some amount of carbs at the end of the day supposedly helps with having a sound sleep (- serotonin being released)

[yuli]

It does work!
I wanted to go to bed early last night because I have shifted to a very late night schedule and wanted to shift back, but I couldn't shift back because I was never tired enough at night anymore, so I pigged out on honey and fruit, worked like a charm!
Had a huge bowl of ground beef and calf liver, a little after I ate a prickly pear cactus, a bowl of wild grape, 5 tiny apples in season, a bowl of fresh blackberries and about 3 tablespoons of honey, that finally put me to sleep early, thats how much sweetness it took ha ha (boy that was a lot of food for me)

[Arthas_]

To me it seems your problem is magnesium deficiency. It's hard to find a concentrated food source of magnesium, so you might try supplementing it. Chelated form is better as magnesium salts could be hard on the stomach. I suggest 400mg to 600mg right before going to bed. You might be skeptical, but I really think it's worth a try.

[Hannibal]

It's hard to find a concentrated food source of magnesium

Pumpkins seeds - 540 mg per 100 g

[Arthas_]

Pumpkins seeds - 540 mg per 100 g

You're right. But you do realize 100g is a lot. Eating 100g of it every single day is not harmless to say the least. Seeds in general contain many antinutrients. You would have to roast them, and even then they're not safe in high amounts. Here in Brazil I can get hold of pure magnesium powder(chelated or not) without any fillers. I consider it safe and better than pumpkin seeds, but that's just me.

[andvanwyk]

I've found that getting about an hour of sunlight per day extremely beneficial (I think it might take a few weeks to work but after that you can really feel the difference). The sunlight resets your circadian rhythm and gets your body to produce melatonin at the right time. I've heard vitamin d also helps synthesis certain neurotransmitters which I'm assuming will help you sleep and lower the stress.

I second the opinion on magnesium. I'm taking transdermal magnesium and defnitely have found it to be very relaxing. Eventually I'd like to live without supplements but I'm finding the magnesium too beneficial at the moment.

[MrBBQ]

Thanks for the insightful answers, which are most appreciated.

I ended up gorging on fat the other night (according to advice I chose), which massively released bile and moved too much water from my upper intestines, thereby dehydrating me and adding/extending a few new permanent wrinkles on my face. I've noticed this about dehydration and my face - more pronounced/extended wrinkles!

Anyways, after eating the fat, I was awake the entire night with an unbelievably powerful, steady heartbeat - not one wink of sleep, nevermind reaching REM/delta sleep. Today at work was a disaster but the funny thing I'd noticed is I'd been neglecting the carbs (someone astute mentioned carbs later on before bed) and I had that familiar ketone breath (I actually like the sensation of ketone breath). When I somehow managed to arrive at work, I decided to type "ketosis" and "insomnia" into Google - that was a revelation...It also reminded me of The Hibernation Diet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c1lbfhPLeM), which I always found particularly effective.

Good advice on vitamin D - I've actually ordered a vitamin D lamp for over winter, so that should be useful.

Magnesium was always trouble for me in rock/chelated forms (my first severe dehydration causing wrinkles), so unless it's a food complex, there's no chance it's passing my lips. Transdermal is a good idea and I'm yet to buy some of that oil - does it affect the bowel in any way?

Funnily enough, on the matter of wrinkles, I've directly experienced wrinkle healing with daily kombucha (a source of bounce tissue building blocks like GAGs) and L-proline/L-glycine, along with amla/triphala (high vitamin C).

I agree about bone broths completely - they are currently poisonous for me given the excitotoxicity, although maybe there's more to the puzzle of excitotoxicity in certain brains - e.g. magnesium and B6 as calcium channel blocker, as well as sufficient taurine (maybe low stomach acid is implicated in not enough amino acids uptaken).

WAPF certainly does not have the whole picture, although observing primitives is a good foundation.

I love Washington state, so Seattle is a great idea...Touche!

I started to eat more meat as a means for more minerals and more weight gain. Instead I got bloodshot eyes and wired insomnia - the saga continues...

[miles]

I started to eat more meat as a means for more minerals and more weight gain. Instead I got bloodshot eyes and wired insomnia - the saga continues...

You increased your meat by 100g, and also increased your fat by 100g at the same time, right? meat=/=fat.

[andvanwyk]

Transdermal magnesium doesn't effect the bowels!

[MrBBQ]

No, I decreased my fat intake again (according to your advice) and increased meat intake. There's no way I can take anymore than 200g meat per day - it destroys me. Even my instinct rejects eating more than that. I know it doesn't reconcile with everyone's experience but frankly, too much meat is not good in my opinion - maybe it's a kidney insufficiency thing, particularly with renal acid load. I really think those bubbles in the urine are from bicarbonate buffers made by the kidney in the presence of acids - the more meat/eggs, the more bubbles. There is something nice about those bubbles though, I have to admit - I can almost feel comfort in past paleo lives looking at those bubbles, although maybe they wouldn't be so self-evident when pissing up a tree or in a stream (certainly not into the wind).

The other problem I discovered with high fat is that I have to eat it 30g per serving, otherwise there's too much bile in my intestine and the resultant peristaltic waves push sodium-rich fluid down the small intestine (before reabsorption), resulting in severe dehydration and new facial wrinkles (from water moving out of cells due to change in osmolarity, causing shrinkage and death).

Also, I think insulin promotes potassium loss (kaliuresis) vs sodium recycling (antinatriuresis), which is another interesting electrolyte fact - maybe a little salt is good for seasoning, especially as a source of chloride for stomach acid.

[yuli]

People demonize salt but I have no issues adding a bit of salt every day (I am talking a BIT of sea salt)...I personally believe it gives me a beneficial effect, and I don't feel good when I have no salt at all for too long, its not that I crave it due to salt addiction, not at all, but I feel something is missing. I don't salt my meats in a long time now but I do have a piece of raw cheese often, which provides me with the salt I need. Or sometimes I will add some sea salt to a shredded veggie and avocado salad when I have it.
Last summer when I was camping close to ST Lawrence I found so much sea-salt on the rocks, to anyone living close to ANY salty body of water getting sea salt is MAD easy, so its not so modernized as we think.
Oh and even if I eat some salt, I have found I hardly ever drink water, I am now having to consciously remind myself to drink at least some water, so salt does not dehydrate me, my body is actually using it. What dehydrates me is cooked meat, even without salt added. Just a thought...