Author Topic: Living in the wild  (Read 75158 times)

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Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2010, 07:31:45 am »
Unfortunately I see more married couples having problems and divorcing lately then anything, alternately I know many couples who are together long time and happy without marriage (I am one of them  ;)). Even if you want to discourage promiscuity there is better ways to do it then imposing a ceremony that has nothing to do with a person learning about true, real relationships. It just doesn't work that way, I see it time and time again  :'(

ps. I am not saying all married couple are unhappy, quite only that marriage has nothing to do with the fact that they are happy or not

Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2010, 07:53:43 am »
Unfortunately I see more married couples having problems and divorcing lately then anything, alternately I know many couples who are together long time and happy without marriage (I am one of them  ;)). Even if you want to discourage promiscuity there is better ways to do it then imposing a ceremony that has nothing to do with a person learning about true, real relationships. It just doesn't work that way, I see it time and time again  :'(

ps. I am not saying all married couple are unhappy, quite only that marriage has nothing to do with the fact that they are happy or not
until we learn how to control emotions like anger and jealousy.  It is best that we stay in monogamous relationship. Yes, there are many example of married couple who are having problems but that is because they got married for the wrong reasons and there are also more example of those that are happy. In this society where a couple only get to spend time together on the weekend and on the week days they are too tired from working at least 8 hours a day, there is not time for the relation to grow, there is not time for love to grow. They grow apart from each other and then they forgot what love is all about.  I see many couples who have forgotten about love because their focus has changed.  It is hard for coupled in this society to stop thinking about the material they need for tomorrow.  There is no time for that which is important, Love.  Using the way the family structure is involving in this society is probably not a good example of marriage. You see that is what we need, we need to start to remember what love is. we cannot say paleo = love that is just too simplistic. We know that the family is the building block of any society. we can't just disregard all the things that we learn. 
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2010, 08:29:57 am »
I once read that before the age of vaccines etc., the average lifespan of a marriage was only 11 years so more easily put up with. This was because, despite divorce being practically nonexistent(except for the likes of Henry VIII), husbands would often  die in wars, while women would often die in childbirth, plus there were epidemics, malnutrition and a generally shorter lifespan due to increased hardship.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2010, 08:40:52 am »
I once read that before the age of vaccines etc., the average lifespan of a marriage was only 11 years so more easily put up with. This was because, despite divorce being practically nonexistent(except for the likes of Henry VIII), husbands would often  die in wars, while women would often die in childbirth, plus there were epidemics, malnutrition and a generally shorter lifespan due to increased hardship.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2010, 08:52:12 am »
You can't concentrate only one part of the world. This is not a strong point. Try to see other part of the world too.

If by the other part you mean hunter-gatherers, nomads or paleo people, I don't think they had marriage, they had no need for it. Marriage is something that sprouted out of the same society that sprouted relationship problems, sexual problems and other mental & physical issues we have today.
In a truly happy paleo environment there should also be no need for requiring a marriage contract for people that love each other and want to be together... Maybe some people can if they want, to celebrate being together, then thats cool!  ;)
It's one thing celebrating your love and taking time to grow your relationship, its another thing if marriage HAS to occur in order to do that acceptably. Once comes this, then other rules, rituals and ceremonies will start to follow, and it will be hard to follow a paleo type society then.

Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2010, 09:02:40 am »
@ Tyler, you see, this is the exact reason why we need to spend time to learn what love is.  To say that after 11 years (so more easily put up with), you are tired of your partner  only shows how little you know about love.  Therefore before we start passing judgment we need to know exactly what love is.  We hear that love is this wonderful thing that every body is looking for everywhere.  It is valuable.  You cannot just look at a book and name a few statistic and dismiss it.  Science is at the point now where most things can be proven to be good or bad.  It is full with confusion.  Therefore I say first know what it is before passing judgment. Instead of concentrating on physical pleasure let us take the time to figure what love is first.  This can't be achieved with so much confusion that exist between sex and Love. Sex is sensual but Love is a fall.  To fall in love is to forget yourself so that you can experience something greater than this physical existence.  It is the fall of the physical, it is more profound then what we currently understand.  Therefore let's learn before we jump into sensual pleasure.  Sex degrades but Love up build, sex is with love is beyond all imagination.  It is a union, the division is broken (ecstasy). Love is best practice in a monogamous relationship, such as marriage.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2010, 09:12:48 am »
If by the other part you mean hunter-gatherers, nomads or paleo people, I don't think they had marriage, they had no need for it. Marriage is something that sprouted out of the same society that sprouted relationship problems, sexual problems and other mental & physical issues we have today.
In a truly happy paleo environment there should also be no need for requiring a marriage contract for people that love each other and want to be together... Maybe some people can if they want, to celebrate being together, then thats cool!  ;)
It's one thing celebrating your love and taking time to grow your relationship, its another thing if marriage HAS to occur in order to do that acceptably. Once comes this, then other rules, rituals and ceremonies will start to follow, and it will be hard to follow a paleo type society then.
It seems that there is great confusion about what it means to be human and even more confusion about what it means to be happy.  What is a truly happy paleo environment? Would you run in front of an approaching truck?  Paleo don't know what truck is.  So would you do it or would you use the common sense that you have learned from living in this society.  We still have all of the bad habits, until we take them away it is best that we protect ourselves with the knowledge that we have.  What is not a ritual? don't you eat every day, don't you sleep? these are rituals that you perform every day.  They are your ritual.  We know that we all seem to think that there is something beyond the physical, it is hard wired in us.  Therefore we can 't say that we are going to completely go back because that is contrary to evolution.  We can't really go back, we can't go back to the exact paleo time. 
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Offline Sully

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2010, 09:37:32 am »
I want to have at least one woman to care for, and/or have kids with.
How you do it is up to you (cerimonies etc.).

I don't beleieve there is a right or wrong way.

In truth though, some things work well, some things don't. Just like with diet.

Back in the paleo days, you would know or at least know of the person you married(had kids with).
We live in an ever stranger world today. All because of the advent of grains.... That is amazing.

Offline miles

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2010, 09:54:16 am »
It's one thing celebrating your love and taking time to grow your relationship, its another thing if marriage HAS to occur in order to do that acceptably. Once comes this, then other rules, rituals and ceremonies will start to follow, and it will be hard to follow a paleo type society then.

Then it will become a cult ;)
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Love is just when someone gives you something you want, and you give them something they want, and because it goes both ways it feels strong, and you don't want to lose it. This could be with a doubles team in tennis, or marines in war. The love is just usually much stronger in sexual relationships because passing on your genes is such a big and important thing. A very strong love could develop between two men, who both work together and benefit each other in staying alive. The one man wants the other man to stay alive, because they stand a better chance of survival together(e.g. in war), and over time as they build a trust between each other that they will always look out for them, it becomes love. This has nothing to do with sex. But it is the same in a sexual relationship.. When you find someone you want to have a child with, and they want to have a child with you, there is the same mutual benefit.. And over time they begin to trust more that the other will always want this(or something else), and it develops in to love. They each feel that the other person will always be there for them, because they feel there is mutual benefit. Especially before they have had their first child, they will be very worried about what could happen to the other person, and not want to lose them. Of course this can then develop in other ways, as they take care of each other and what not.. If one person no longer sees the same benefit from the other, then the love will disappear, or parts of it will disappear and it will change.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:59:20 am by miles »
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Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2010, 10:18:43 am »
A very strong love could develop between two men, who both work together and benefit each other in staying alive.

That's called a bromance, lol, my friend taught me that last week  ;D

I also believe it is possible to have even romantic love for more then one person and still be happy, but you have to learn let go of feelings like jealousy and be happy in your life. Its not something everyone can do or will do.

Iit is best that we protect ourselves with the knowledge that we have.  What is not a ritual? don't you eat every day, don't you sleep? these are rituals that you perform every day.  They are your ritual....Therefore we can 't say that we are going to completely go back because that is contrary to evolution.  We can't really go back, we can't go back to the exact paleo time. 

I agree we can't completely go back and should use our knowledge to improve our life...one knowledge I gained is that love goes much deeper then marriage, its also difficult to define and describe, this is why I prefer marriage to be unnecessary for any relationship.
As for eating and sleeping everyday, sure that's part of my daily ritual, as is being with my love! But I do not need to have a ceremony or contract for doing any of these rituals with great enjoyment. That is why I feel in a paleo society, one where we try to live a simple, happy and healthy life we shouldn't have to make people get married.




Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2010, 10:30:55 am »
... All because of the advent of grains.... That is amazing.

lol, that was a large part of the problem but its not the only one  ;)

Offline miles

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2010, 10:49:09 am »
I also believe it is possible to have even romantic love for more then one person and still be happy

It's called a spitroast.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2010, 10:53:11 am »
It's called a spitroast.

LOL, thats assuming they have a threesome....and I learn another new word....yay
 

Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2010, 02:02:13 pm »
That is why I feel in a paleo society, one where we try to live a simple, happy and healthy life we shouldn't have to make people get married.
There's so many examples of this kind of relationship. Most of them ended up an unhappiness, where a child is born and no one knows who is the father. Living a paleo life doesn't mean that u completely cut off from society,  that could still be emotional dispute among members. And that can result end some people living from the community. Than what will happen to those children? That's why allowing multiple partners without some social contracts among them is very risky. Not only for the paleo community but for all other community in general. Therefor I say the focus can't be  just on sensual pleasure. So, we gotta think about the welfare for everybody, including the children who may be born in the community. And the same time we need to think about the long term survival of the community.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2010, 02:26:13 pm »
A very strong love could develop between two men, who both work together and benefit each other in staying alive. The one man wants the other man to stay alive, because they stand a better chance of survival together(e.g. in war), and over time as they build a trust between each other that they will always look out for them, it becomes love. This has nothing to do with sex. But it is the same in a sexual relationship.. When you find someone you want to ...
Love can develop between any two living things. And that doesn't have to be sexual. But love is a fall, whether lover forget himself; he's willing to give everything and doesn't expect to get anything back. It is possible that one person fall in love for someone who doesn't love him/her. But that person may like only sexual pleasure or anything that the lover is willing to give. We know that the society we living now, some people have many partners and they have to lie to some of the partners. so, until the community is mature, they can't rely solely on the trust between people. so we have to take the responsibilities of all our actions and not to be burden on any other people.

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Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2010, 03:50:08 pm »
Oh, I thought that thread was dead !

We know that the family is the building block of any society. we can't just disregard all the things that we learn. 

It’s a building block only in the Neolithic and industrial societies that spoiled the planet, not in tribal hunter-gatherers sustainable societies - as already said. In Paleolithic era, the society’s building block was the tribe, as far as we know.

If by the other part you mean hunter-gatherers, nomads or paleo people, I don't think they had marriage, they had no need for it. Marriage is something that sprouted out of the same society that sprouted relationship problems, sexual problems and other mental & physical issues we have today.
In a truly happy paleo environment there should also be no need for requiring a marriage contract for people that love each other and want to be together... Maybe some people can if they want, to celebrate being together, then thats cool!  ;)
It's one thing celebrating your love and taking time to grow your relationship, its another thing if marriage HAS to occur in order to do that acceptably. Once comes this, then other rules, rituals and ceremonies will start to follow, and it will be hard to follow a paleo type society then.

Exactly. Well said.

Love is best practice in a monogamous relationship, such as marriage.

Being confined by force in a closed, exclusive and jealous relationship is a love killing situation.

Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2010, 11:53:16 pm »
Being confined by force in a closed, exclusive and jealous relationship is a love killing situation.
Is it possible that marriage, much like optimal diet, is different for everyone?
I believe you've mentioned before that you are divorced Francois. It's quite possible that this experience has defined your ideas of what is good and what is bad in a relationship. This is not to say that your particular experience must therefore preclude marriage from other peoples viable ways to express there love for each other.
Marriage is a neolithic convention. I do not believe monogamy is solely a neolithic invention. I believe the paleo era had monogamous and polygamous relationships and both can work.

For the record I have been married for two years myself. There are times where my wife is a difficult woman to live with, as I can be difficult for her, but I feel our union is beneficial to the both of us. We both have a best friend, confidant, support base, and sexual partner who we know will be there for us when we need them. I am not so naive to believe that this would continue growing stronger, as it has since we first met, without lots of work and compromise. Nor am I so naive to believe that marriage will always work out between two people. I do believe it's an incredibly strong bond when nurtured by two people who belong together and I fully expect us to spend our lives together much the same as my parents have through all of their internal & external hardships (30 years in the spring). :)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2010, 12:17:25 am »
All of this is getting to be amusing.

I'll chime in with my 2 cents being pro-life and pro-natal.

This love from my point of view is all genetic, for genetic future, propagation.

I love all my parents, grandparents, all my siblings, all my children and their mothers.

People cooperate for the sake of their genetic future.  Those who don't "love" have doomed genetic futures.

Hell, you'd be forced to love one another if you had 4-10 kids relying on your love to cooperate, feed and raise them.

I believe in extended family co habitation
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Offline miles

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2010, 06:45:51 am »
what GS said is good.. love is for the passing on of your genes, whether that be survival or reproduction.

But love is a fall, whether lover forget himself; he's willing to give everything and doesn't expect to get anything back.

Of course 'he' expects something back, that's why he loves them, because they provide something which is valuable to 'him'. Whether because he wants to mate with a woman, or it's a person who watches their back and keeps them alive, whatever.. But when they love, they have got used to that person providing whatever it is, or got used to the idea that they will.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:52:35 am by miles »
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2010, 06:14:15 am »
Is it possible that marriage, much like optimal diet, is different for everyone?

Sure, it must be so. Everyone is different, every marriage is different. I was talking in a general way, as marriage is usually seen as a contract of exclusivity, which ends up of being a kind of jealous possession of the spouse. This is not love. If you really love someone, you want that person to be free and happy, and it means that she or he can also be loved by and love someone else, in case it happens…

...and that happens always after some years of living in a binary couple. The common, “civilized” way of thinking is that the third party intrusion is going to break the initial couple and hence should be repealed. This proves to be a terrible mistake. The third party arrival, on the contrary may well be a good luck, bringing new energy and information into the initial couple – of course under the condition that all three accept each other.

Hunters-gatherers seem to know that since they gladly accept and welcome foreigners, even often to the point of intimately including them in their couples. That was still the way of life for peoples who had not yet fallen into grain and dairy consumption, such as Pacific Islanders and Inuits.

Quote
I believe you've mentioned before that you are divorced Francois. It's quite possible that this experience has defined your ideas of what is good and what is bad in a relationship. This is not to say that your particular experience must therefore preclude marriage from other peoples viable ways to express there love for each other.

Yes, I’m divorced. It may have influenced my ideas to some extend, but my case is not at all an exception. It’s rather the closed couples working fine that are an exception. After some years of living together in a closed couple, the relationship wears out, the passionate love of the beginning inexorably goes away and the couple usually and at best settles in a kind of affectionate routine. Some people may be satisfied with such a situation, which thus may last for all the rest of the live of both partners.

But some other people feel that something is missing in their live and they start to long for something else, something fulfilling their deepest aspirations. One day, they fall in love with a third party. That seem to be the normal suit of events. But unfortunately it looks like that since the advent of agriculture, adoption of a sedentary lifestyle with grain and dairy as staple food, at the beginning of the Neolithic era, something went wrong with the human sexual instinct and way of thinking. Private property appeared and it extended to the possession of the partner, the third party being ever since considered as an enemy coming to plunder the crop and steal whatever it could… including the partner.

The grain had to be protect behind ramparts, fortified cities appeared, everyone enclosed his property behind fences and walls. The tribal structure disappeared and was replaced by the family structure. Finally, chastity belts and other horrors such as stoning to dead for adultery were implemented.

Quote
Marriage is a neolithic convention. I do not believe monogamy is solely a neolithic invention. I believe the paleo era had monogamous and polygamous relationships and both can work.

Yes, to a certain extend. Monogamy can work fine for a while,  and perhaps for the whole live in a few cases…

Quote
For the record I have been married for two years myself. There are times where my wife is a difficult woman to live with, as I can be difficult for her, but I feel our union is beneficial to the both of us. We both have a best friend, confidant, support base, and sexual partner who we know will be there for us when we need them. I am not so naive to believe that this would continue growing stronger, as it has since we first met, without lots of work and compromise. Nor am I so naive to believe that marriage will always work out between two people. I do believe it's an incredibly strong bond when nurtured by two people who belong together and I fully expect us to spend our lives together much the same as my parents have through all of their internal & external hardships (30 years in the spring). :)

My parents lived together more than 60 years – till my father’s death. Marriage can work under some conditions, but it would work much more often and much better if it was considered as an open relationship, open to others in case of love with a third party.

Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2010, 06:31:16 am »

This love from my point of view is all genetic, for genetic future, propagation.

I have good reasons to think there's also something else, Edwin. I'll explain it latter if someone is interested.  ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2010, 06:59:17 am »
I have good reasons to think there's also something else, Edwin. I'll explain it latter if someone is interested.  ;)

Please share this theory.
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Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2010, 07:11:36 am »
jesus. while it is almost impossible to define love, virtually all human beings would associate love as being entirely separate than propagation, with love defining almost every indescribable positive aspect of human interaction other than pure copulation and raising of the species. Most would also say love does not exist in single celled organisms that are non-sentient and reproduce a-sexually for their own benefit. Love is very often experienced in animals and people of the same sex, and also between animals (pets)  and humans without propagation (I believe) , not to mention experienced often between platonic friends or 'premature' relationships that never result in marriage, nevermind reproduction.

as for life time commitments and exclusivity of partnerships being neolithic, again total fantasy as its not even a human trait or  a hetro one.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2010, 07:56:07 am »
I read that romantic love(re hormones) has been proven to last c. 2 years, but gets extended for another 2 years after the birth of a child.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2010, 08:12:12 am »
as for life time commitments and exclusivity of partnerships being neolithic, again total fantasy as its not even a human trait or  a hetro one.

No, it's not a human trait: it's a peculiarity of humans in troubled societies.

GS, sorry I don't have the will to go further tonight since it would need a lot of writing.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 11:46:38 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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