Author Topic: Living in the wild  (Read 75122 times)

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Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2010, 08:42:30 am »
No, it's not a human trait: it's a peculiarity of disturbed humans.


again with the extremes without acknowledging your opinion. How can you comment on the entire human race and species and disregard countless animals that unequivocally have life time unions and expect for anyone to take your comments seriously? Marriage is a ceremony, monogamous relationships are ubiquitous throughout place/time and species.

In my observations for all the time I've been exposed to the internet, I'd have to say the people promoting polymory etc..as some kind of intrinsic  right or solution to socialites' failed pacts are often the most dysfunctional people, not to mention they inevitably and hypocritically eventually have the desire to get into (short term) monogamous relationships, which of course do not workout because they lack the ability to compromise towards another person which is usually the desire in the first place -ego.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2010, 09:07:40 am »
I have to admit I am always envious of people who can make a marriage last lifelong, even in current social cirucmstances. Such people definitely display far greater maturity than others.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 09:48:55 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #102 on: November 07, 2010, 09:19:52 am »
I read that romantic love(re hormones) has been proven to last c. 2 years, but gets extended for another 2 years after the birth of a child.

I believe love is an emotion way too complex for any study to comprehend.

What the study describes is probably more about physical infatuation.
Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Try things out for your self and then make up your mind.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2010, 09:23:51 am »
My playboy solution is to love them ALL forever.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2010, 09:32:25 am »
 @ Iguana, you can't bicep human being in a laboratory and look at the parts and think that  you know everything of human being. Human has very complex emotions and behaviors. As far as we know the tribes fight among each other and that could be for women, for food  or many other unknown things and I'm sure they fight among members of the same tribes. You can't just bring a group of people together in a jungle, eating raw meat and assume that you could have a sexual relationship with every single women and just assume that's what tribes members do in a paleolithic time. Once you talking about paleolithic, than you probably talking about the Darwinisms, which is survival of the fittest. So, the strongest guy can beat you up and take women  away. Is this  the kind of society you wanna live in?  It sounds like a very nice idea for the males to display their hormones. That means you are not learning anything and just want to step back in a brutal world where there is no law. It looks like your lawlessness nature is becoming stronger in every posts you make. I think humans are more than just brutes. Without the proper structure, there could not be any respect and trust among members. This is not just to fulfill you fantasy.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #105 on: November 07, 2010, 09:40:05 am »
Please, think of the children. What about the children?
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2010, 10:10:21 am »
Please, think of the children. What about the children?


(my blog banner)

Awesome, I always think about children myself.

Living in the wild requires entire families: grandparents, aunts, uncles, parents, siblings, children... the extended family... plus the extended family of the co parents.  It takes 2 extended families to raise the children they have in common with.

Relying on just 2 parents to raise children has a low probability of success.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #107 on: November 07, 2010, 10:13:21 am »

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Awesome, I always think about children myself.

Living in the wild requires entire families: grandparents, aunts, uncles, parents, siblings, children... the extended family... plus the extended family of the co parents.  It takes 2 extended families to raise the children they have in common with.

Relying on just 2 parents to raise children has a low probability of success.
Just beautiful!!
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #108 on: November 07, 2010, 10:26:51 am »
But some other people feel that something is missing in their live and they start to long for something else, something fulfilling their deepest aspirations. One day, they fall in love with a third party. That seem to be the normal suit of events. But unfortunately it looks like that since the advent of agriculture, adoption of a sedentary lifestyle with grain and dairy as staple food, at the beginning of the Neolithic era, something went wrong with the human sexual instinct and way of thinking.
Francois
Your testicles are talking. This is very unusual act. I don't know they can talk. Hopefully your brain will get at least some control soon.  :D :D :D :D :D :D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 10:32:16 am by raw »
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Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #109 on: November 07, 2010, 10:34:39 am »
Your testicles are talking. This is very unusual act. I don't know they can talk. Hopefully your brain will get at least some control soon.  :D :D :D :D :D :D

yeah, honestly I don't think one can talk about polygamy in a natural setting if they cannot at least carry a 125 lb doe more than 50 yards back to their wive(s) and fight off some aggressive muscley suitors. Wasn't this thread about what it would take to actually survive in the wild? what a bunch of I-can_type_this_up_on_my_computer dreamland bullshit.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #110 on: November 07, 2010, 10:37:47 am »
KD has a point re wishful thinking. Yet, I recall a documentary or two re Mormon Fundamentalists/Polygamists where the husbands, surprisingly, were not the
wife-beating dominating patriarchs I expected them to be, but  actually quite placid types.
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Offline raw

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #111 on: November 07, 2010, 10:42:22 am »
Yes, I’m divorced. It may have influenced my ideas to some extend, but my case is not at all an exception. It’s rather the closed couples working fine that are an exception. After some years of living together in a closed couple, the relationship wears out, the passionate love of the beginning inexorably goes away and the couple usually and at best settles in a kind of affectionate routine.
Francois
Passionate sex not "LOVE"
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Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #112 on: November 07, 2010, 10:46:38 am »
hmm, for me its not whether polymory is good or bad. I do tend to think its by an large a bad thing for individuals and society, but either way, to say it is a natural impulse is false and that is actually proven. If anything, the impulse to be free and to explore options are based on the options presented by not only neolithic but modern societies, even though much of the strains in staying monogamous are made more complicated by modern problems. To say one is going to have extended families and people watching bastard children and all the other crap that has come up in the past with polymory chat- IN THE WILD...please! Yeah grandma skin the reindeer and watch these snots while I go romp. The reason Mormons and such can be successful is because they have physical wealth and resources beyond which they create themselves, which only exists in civilized societies not wild-independent hunter/gatheres that have to provide all for their own.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2010, 11:14:30 am »
Well, even tribal HGs had some polygamy. Granted, polygamy was only really available to tribal chieftains/elders with most other tribesmen being restricted to monogamy for obvious reasons. Polyamory, on the other hand, appears to be a totally modern phenomenon, which was not prevalent in the past.
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Offline miles

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #114 on: November 07, 2010, 11:50:03 am »
Passionate sex not "LOVE"

Yeah... Exactly... But if the desire to have sex(reproduce) with someone goes then it would be natural to find someone else to have sex(to reproduce) with... He would still love his baby-momma( :D), and his children. He would want them to do well, he would not want them to be lost, or that would defeat the whole point of it all in the first place, would be a waste of time.. i.e. he loves them... But if he was coping enough with supporting them, then he might naturally become attracted to another female... And so if he did become so, and he could he would want to copulate with her also.. Then he would have two wives whom he both loves, with two sets of children whom he loved.. They would be joined together and he would look after them both. Like GS said, others in the family could help look after these children. If he has energy to do so he'll want to keep having more children.

{{{*The love is not wanting to lose something... The sexual attraction is wanting to pass on genes, mixed with that person. So if you find someone you want to pass on your genes with, you will not want to lose them.. I.e. if you have sexual attraction to someone, you will develop love for them, and then you will love the children. The mother is taking care of the children whom you love so you wouldn't want to lose her, and you likely want to have more children with her. Even shared experiences/memories will make you not want to lose them, i.e. love them.

*It's simple.. The most simple thing.}}}
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 12:18:47 pm by miles »
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Offline yuli

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #115 on: November 07, 2010, 01:34:33 pm »
Monogamy, polygamy, polyamory, who cares, as long as everyone is at peace and happy!
Living in the wild is simple, you wanna be able to hunt, to fuck and to raise children to be able to do the same, however its done is not important as long as they can survive well in the wild.
None of these other things like love and marriage are important in the wild, you can do whatever you want as long as you can survive and nature doesn't care...
None of these things encompass living in the wild, unless you want to build a village or mini-society, but thats no longer living in the wild, people live in small villages today, go and look at how they live.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2010, 04:40:10 pm »
 :( I’m sad about the turn this discussion has taken. I painstakingly tried to start making my point of view clear and understandable, but it looks like I failed, triggered a lot of passionate words and got insulted instead of being thanked and amiably asked questions. So, I'll let you discuss amongst yourselves. Sorry GS, I feel useless to go further in such an excited and provocative  ambiance.
 -X  >:
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2010, 07:40:05 pm »
Living in the wild is simple, you wanna be able to hunt, to fuck and to raise children to be able to do the same
Perfect way of life  8)
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #118 on: November 08, 2010, 12:21:00 am »
:( I’m sad about the turn this discussion has taken. I painstakingly tried to start making my point of view clear and understandable, but it looks like I failed, triggered a lot of passionate words and got insulted instead of being thanked and amiably asked questions. So, I'll let you discuss amongst yourselves. Sorry GS, I feel useless to go further in such an excited and provocative  ambiance.
 -X  >:

Don't let 2 monogamy die hards spoil your day.  You know I'm pro-natal.  So I'm all ears.
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Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #119 on: November 08, 2010, 01:18:35 am »
Don't let 2 monogamy die hards spoil your day.  You know I'm pro-natal.  So I'm all ears.

hmm no. there are two things here, whether one prefers some kind of polymory/polygamy (which technically refers to a religious framework or tribal hierarchy as pointed out) and if it is natural and monogamy is unnatural. You can't disguise a preference in a bunch of bullshit science/anthropology and then keep the same argument running when pointed out otherwise. As for the preference, what people are pointing out is that this also is totally out of touch with reality unless one wanted to actually face the real consequences of how this would look like without modern creations.

What :raw: says is absolutely true as the proportion of females to males would not even be remotely equal in primitive societies and the males that would even find mates in such a setting (if they were lucky) would be the biggest and the strongest or otherwise most usefull. Speaking otherwise is to capitalize on both artificial wealth and advantages of artificial constructs.

on a biological level, of course the advantage of having variety of mates is obvious to just about anyone (that is male!), but I can say for certain that as someone fully capable of attracting a variety of females in a modern or probably traditional setting - not to mention per topic a larger probability of survival, I would trade constant shuffling between partners for a true committed love. This is the love that makes us human and not an amoeba. Just about the majority of all humans believe this way, which is why despite the obvious problems, all the otherwise deemed 'alphas' seem to be drawn into at least a series of monogamous relationships, even when they have all the looks and resources to have basically whatever they please in our modern world 24/7.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:32:01 am by KD »

Offline miles

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2010, 03:36:11 am »
Human gestation period is long.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2010, 03:57:31 am »
I would trade constant shuffling between partners for a true committed love.

Me too.

Humans Are Not Made Monogamous
Quote
Of course, when Hollywood stars or politicians have extramarital affairs, the whole world rumbles. But if we peek into human biology, anthropology and sociology, the monogamous human appears as a very weird notion. We are mammals, and if we look to the mammalian world, just 3 to 5% of the about 5,000 species of mammals form lifelong, monogamous bonds.

Others points :

Bonobo Society: Amicable, Amorous and Run by Females  


Matriarchal tribal system
Quote
The hunter gatherer society is among the early societies believed to have had a matriarchal tribal system. (…) Hunter-gatherer societies have non-hierarchical, egalitarian social structures. Hunter gatherer societies there is sexual parity.  Egalitarianism is common in hunter-gatherer groups. Hunters will share meat with the rest of the group.

2 photos for Yuli :





In bigger size here

Humans, bonobos, dolphins and perhaps whales are particular in that they have perennial sexual and genital relations, I mean even the already pregnant women and children not yet able to reproduce also have sexual drives or even genital relations. Why is that? Sexologists and psychoanalysts answer is “for the pleasure”. That’s like telling the purpose of eating is just and only for the pleasure.

It would be more logical to admit that the pleasure we have when doing something means we’re doing something useful for our survival, because animals spending their energy to do useless  things are placed in a state of inferiority and would have been eliminated by natural selection. So, we must infer that there’s likely another purpose than reproduction to our sexual drives, a purpose useful to the specie survival.  

We feel that a loving relationship bring us happiness and energy. We can feel this energy transfer flow when we touch and caress someone we love. There’s in fact a transfer of particles (mostly electrons) with any physical contact. Energy / information can flow this way between partners being “in tune”. Many people experience extra-sensory perceptions (ESP) and/or have premonitory dreams and such things when in love. So it could well be that the second purpose of sexual relations (other than reproduction) is the structuring of our extra-sensory perception capabilities. The lost of it diminishes our chances of survival in the wild and leads to the denial of the existence of something non directly observable as “material”.

At the beginning of a real love relationship, the exchange of energy is very intense, passionate, but it diminishes with time – most probably because all the information has been exchanged and the same is re-circulating over and over again. Usually, after a while in this unsatisfactory situation, one of the two partners falls in love with a third party. This person coming form outside can bring new information and “recharge the batteries” of the initial couple. She or he is not at all an enemy of the couple, she or he is instead the savior of the couple.

This person being most often included herself in another couple, the energy / information can therefore flow between  the initial couple and the rest of the society, which forms a kind of honeycomb. That’s how I see the structure of a harmonious and sustainable tribal society.

Closed and exclusive couples insulate themselves from the rest of the society and loose the most important thing in live.

Francois
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 04:31:59 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2010, 04:36:11 am »
ok, even i'll admit you've redeemed yourself here in some sense and brought in more cases of poly type behavior than I was aware, but there is a HUGE difference between polymory and serial monogamy. You still seem to be presenting a case more for short lived monogomous relationships. Especially given the factors and stresses of our world I would probably agree that might be the best many switched on and evolving people can hope for. But little of this translates as supporting multiple relationships at a single time (for humans) other that some specific monkeys who have their own unique monkey purposes. Just because it is present does not mean it is fair to both sexes either. Even the dynamics of early man or of animals, would essentially be considered to be unfair to both sexes in terms of independence and choice of role.

There seems to be intrinsic discomfort to a male human in the situation of the female mating with other males simultaneously - even if present in SOME monkeys - to be entirely a convention of societies brainwashing. The answer here is just the simple difference that we are not apes. My favorite part was how in the rare cases amongst humans, this polyandry (the far more likely occurrence in primitive society due to emale/male ratios) was used as birth control (gross) of course because the female would already be pregnant. Lets face it, when males are speaking of poly, they are largely speaking of polygyny or spreading their seed around, and a largely uncomfortable with sharing females, unless thats their best option I suppose.

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #123 on: November 08, 2010, 04:40:16 am »
Wasn't this thread about what it would take to actually survive in the wild? what a bunch of I-can_type_this_up_on_my_computer dreamland bullshit.

back to the topic: KD, why do you portray living in the wild so negatively? just curious on your reasoning. thanks

Offline KD

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Re: Living in the wild
« Reply #124 on: November 08, 2010, 04:57:11 am »
back to the topic: KD, why do you portray living in the wild so negatively? just curious on your reasoning. thanks

the quote you selected was referring to the fact that if we were taking these relationship contracts out of the context of what would actually be feasible in nature (for a male to acquire and support/'hold on to' a female etc without money, status, and assistance of course..) then we are entering into a fantasy. Part of me agrees that living in the nature -today- entirely is somewhat of a fantasy, but I believe it was Iguana oddly who first mentioned that. So I guess we agree on something somewhat.


seems to be the contrary..I think I had positive things to say about practical things for the most part here till it was derailed. In other words I was sort of saying we were now off topic - to get back to talking about living in nature, not further conceptualizations. I was talking more about my example of functional strength for instance as being sort of a requirement for an opinion. If people here could not survive in nature they obviously could not outmatch someone who could never mind have more than one wife, in terms of the brute competition of primitives as 'raw' mentioned.


yeah, honestly I don't think one can talk about polygamy in a natural setting if they cannot at least carry a 125 lb doe more than 50 yards back to their wive(s) and fight off some aggressive muscley suitors. Wasn't this thread about what it would take to actually survive in the wild? what a bunch of I-can_type_this_up_on_my_computer dreamland bullshit.

basically it was just frustration with an obvious contradiction of the topic. If we can't hunt/kill/carry a relatively small animal and build a fire and so forth yet are talking about extended families living outside eating all raw?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 05:29:50 am by KD »

 

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