how to make this work

[miles]

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO COLLECT IT IN A CONTAINER!?!? WTF?

[Iguana]

You mean you can suck it and drink it straight from the cut? Perhaps, but it remains to be seen. Any report of someone having been able to  somehow drink milk from a dead female? I said Bruno Comby reported that he tried hard to do it by any means it but he failed.

[miles]

I could find one video I saw, which is nothing to do with drinking milk, but the guy is field-dressing a deer and cuts through the breast for it all to spill out... It's on youtube. If he wanted to drink it he easily could have, there was loads of it.

[Iguana]

It's on youtube.

Yes... any link ?

[raw-al]

No wild animal drinks milk when adult, no wild animal routinely drinks milk form another animal specie. Dairy consumption is truly neolithic, so it's no part of any true paleodiet.

But if you are deprived of meat, eggs and seafood, it might be better to eat dairy rather than no animal food at all. 

Francois

clearly she is not interested in dairy... but, the "no wild animal eats dairy" is a silly argument as no wild animal eats krill oil or cod liver oil or all the other stuff people dream up on this site. 

[TylerDurden]

clearly she is not interested in dairy... but, the "no wild animal eats dairy" is a silly argument as no wild animal eats krill oil or cod liver oil or all the other stuff people dream up on this site. 

No, it isn't silly as the milk of each species is designed to be eaten by the infants of that  species alone. Which is why wolves' milk is reportedly lethal to human babies over time, for example. Cows' milk may be "less worse" but that's all. As for krill oil or cod liver oil, they are somewhat processed and not ideal, being merely extras for those who are not able to get hold of really high quality raw foods all the time. And krill oil and cod liver oil are just foods, not designed by Nature to be consumed by a particular species.

[raw-al]

So melodramatic. Disaster this disaster that.

Anywho, coconut oil works just fine for me.

Amen... ForTheHunt,

You took the words out of my mouth..

[raw-al]

No, it isn't silly as the milk of each species is designed to be eaten by the infants of that  species alone. Which is why wolves' milk is reportedly lethal to human babies over time, for example. Cows' milk may be "less worse" but that's all. As for krill oil or cod liver oil, they are somewhat processed and not ideal, being merely extras for those who are not able to get hold of really high quality raw foods all the time. And krill oil and cod liver oil are just foods, not designed by Nature to be consumed by a particular species.

Tyler,
You are the queen of making up stories to fit your theories.

Do you have a "study" to support the feeding of wolves milk to babies being lethal over time. (I can't wait for this link). LOL
So did paleos who were not able to "get hold of really high quality raw foods all the time" build ships to go hundreds or thousands of miles out into the oil to find krills. LOL Were these same paleos the ones who couldn't fashion a bowl. C'mon give everyone a break.

Lots of people happily consume dairy and lots of people can't consume dairy. End of discussion.

I love it and am quite capable of stopping consuming it in a heartbeat with none of your silly horrible results. My teeth aren't falling out of my head. Same goes with the juicing of veges nonsense. I drink juice daily and have not passed onto the other world. Some can some can't.

I get the impression that you want everyone to be exactly like yourself and if they aren't, they are just deluding themselves and they are going to die an 'orrible death

[TylerDurden]

The above comments are particularly stupid in view of the fact that I have several times in the past stated that some people seem to do  fine on raw dairy. "Lots of people" as a claim is , of course, totally false given that so many RVAFers have problems with raw dairy, judging from reports all over the Web. So this absurd business of using melodrama to accuse me of melodrama is just childish, at best.

As for the wolves' comment, it was mentioned somewhere online that wolves' milk contains way too high levels of  casein for human babies to absorb properly, which is why it is thought that  the notion of feral children being breastfed by wolves(re Romulus and Remus etc.) can only be mythical and not based on any truth.  Of course, there are reportedly some mammal's milk which is even closer to human mother's milk in terms of content, such as mare's milk, but that is not a common type of raw dairy(though it used to be).

[Iguana]

clearly she is not interested in dairy... but, the "no wild animal eats dairy" is a silly argument as no wild animal eats krill oil or cod liver oil or all the other stuff people dream up on this site. 

People on this site are free to dream up about whatever they want!  In 24 years of RPF I never ingested a single drop of krill oil, cod liver oil nor any oil and I don’t care about oils. Either we can call our diet “paleo” and therefore just like our ancestors of the paleolithic era we don’t drink oils nor milk – or we do and our diet isn’t paleo.

So did paleos who were not able to "get hold of really high quality raw foods all the time" build ships to go hundreds or thousands of miles out into the oil to find krills. LOL Were these same paleos the ones who couldn't fashion a bowl. C'mon give everyone a break.

Paleo hominids “build ships to go hundreds or thousands of miles out into the oil to find krills.” Hugh… were there seas of oil on which pithecanthropus and such sailed on ships?
 
I doubt hunters carried with them a bowl to collect the milk from the breastfeeding females they killed, even that I could concede that some were perhaps able to fashion such a bowl. 

Lots of people happily consume dairy and lots of people can't consume dairy. End of discussion.

Lots of people fare well on fried potatoes, grilled grain-fed-beef, pastry, chocolate, beer and coffee.   

I love it and am quite capable of stopping consuming it in a heartbeat with none of your silly horrible results. My teeth aren't falling out of my head. Same goes with the juicing of veges nonsense. I drink juice daily and have not passed onto the other world. Some can some can't.

See my above answer.

[Iguana]

I could find one video I saw, which is nothing to do with drinking milk, but the guy is field-dressing a deer and cuts through the breast for it all to spill out... It's on youtube. If he wanted to drink it he easily could have, there was loads of it.

Is it the one you posted here?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/off-topic/what-are-you-listening-to/msg52713/#msg52713
It seems not, but at least we know that you know how to post a video here, so please...

[Hannibal]

  Prefrozen meat is not ideal but is still fine to eat. Just do not thaw it and then refreeze it again and again.

I thawed and then refroze the meat many times and everything was all right.
It's IMO very paleo, as some carcass could have frozen during the cold night and then thawed during a day and so on.

[yuli]

....so many RVAFers have problems with raw dairy, judging from reports all over the Web....

Yeah but reports over the web can only be taken with a grain of salt...how many false reports are there from vegans and fruitarians who are doing "so well" on their diets? You never know if its just on their heads or not. For example paleo dieters shun anything that was unavailable to paleo ancestors, so I don't know if a lot of them shun dairy because its all in their head. I am not saying that thats the truth but it could be, I always look at things that way.

It could be your ability to eat dairy is based on your genetics. I have read that people that developed to be able to eat lots of dairy are descended from ancestors who had very little sunlight and vitamin D, so they drank lots of milk and it helped them with the vit. D and calcium issues.
In Northern Europe it was particularly hard for our ancestors to get enough sunlight. There is a good chance we today don't have enough sunlight either particularly in the winter and fall.
In lieu of having vitamin D from sun, these people used the Lactose in milk which aided them in calcium uptake. This gave Northern Europeans stronger bones, and had a positive effect on their health, so they kept drinking it.

As for getting milk from a wild animal without container, yeah it would probably start spilling out, thats why you'd have to shove your face right in there...When you see lions eat they tear into the lower guts portion first, often while the animal is still alive, it is possible to ingest some milk that way just like some blood would spill and some would be ingested.

Yes... any link ?

Iguana, if people actually do that, and I have read a couple of accounts on forums, I doubt they would post it on youtube. Its a very bloody and messy thing and they would get all sorts of negative feedback.

I thawed and then refroze the meat many times and everything was all right.
It's IMO very paleo, as some carcass could have frozen during the cold night and then thawed during a day and so on.

I ate fresh heart (well it was slightly aged but never frozen) and it was pretty good.
Then I tried frozen heart and honestly there was a big difference, I even threw part of it out.
I can definitely tell that freezing some parts of the animal has a big effect on quality, I have sensitive taste so a lot of times I can sense when meat was frozen.
Cats fed raw meat that was pre-frozen MUST have extra vitamins added to it, there is a reason for that.
I know that in paleo times carcasses got frozen in the winter and were eaten, so what, they did it because they had no choice, I however have a choice. Like I said in some previous post, just because paleo people did some things and some things they didn't do does NOT mean that everything they did was PERFECT! They had no choice!
I am all for following a paleo style diet, but I am not against the fact that SOME modern ways of doing thing ARE more beneficial and are not always a bad thing, this is the reason why we have a computer on which we can use this forum, and the reason we have krill oil to supplement us if we want.

Everything should be thought about subjectively, if we are going to judge everything then I shall also judge our early ancestors without issue.

[miles]

Yes... any link ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEYw6qtiJZY

3:15, the guy cuts through the milk sack, milk comes out... I don't get what's so hard for you to understand about this... How could you cut through every part of the animal, get the meat, get the brain... and you couldn't cut through the milk sack??

I don't understand it Yuli... Iguana doesn't believe it's possible to even get at the milk.. I don't know what he is thinking.

The guy could've even cut out the milk sack if he wanted to, cut a little slit and drank from it... Seriously what don't you understand??

[yuli]

@miles

Thanks for finding a link, wow...I saw the milk gushing out, why didn't he drink it, ha ha! He could have either let it drip into his hand or even cut it carefully and drank straight from it. Of course its possible, you don't even need to know much to see that its doable, there is a milk sac, and it contains milk, enough said lol
And like I was saying, many predators rip at the lower guts, where the milk sac is, and start eating that part while the animal is still alive.

[Hannibal]

Everything should be thought about subjectively, if we are going to judge everything then I shall also judge our early ancestors without issue.

That's very true, dear Yuli
But there is very little loss of vitamins during a freezing of meat.
I asked one doctor about that issue and he confirmed it. But the aging properties of fresh meat are much better than a prefrozen one.

[Iguana]

3:15, the guy cuts through the milk sack, milk comes out... I don't get what's so hard for you to understand about this... How could you cut through every part of the animal, get the meat, get the brain... and you couldn't cut through the milk sack??
I don't understand it Yuli... Iguana doesn't believe it's possible to even get at the milk.. I don't know what he is thinking.
The guy could've even cut out the milk sack if he wanted to, cut a little slit and drank from it... Seriously what don't you understand??

OK, thanks you got it. I wanted to see it and I saw it.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah but reports over the web can only be taken with a grain of salt...how many false reports are there from vegans and fruitarians who are doing "so well" on their diets? You never know if its just on their heads or not. For example paleo dieters shun anything that was unavailable to paleo ancestors, so I don't know if a lot of them shun dairy because its all in their head. I am not saying that thats the truth but it could be, I always look at things that way.

It could be your ability to eat dairy is based on your genetics. I have read that people that developed to be able to eat lots of dairy are descended from ancestors who had very little sunlight and vitamin D, so they drank lots of milk and it helped them with the vit. D and calcium issues.
In Northern Europe it was particularly hard for our ancestors to get enough sunlight. There is a good chance we today don't have enough sunlight either particularly in the winter and fall.
In lieu of having vitamin D from sun, these people used the Lactose in milk which aided them in calcium uptake. This gave Northern Europeans stronger bones, and had a positive effect on their health, so they kept drinking it.

The milk/vitamin D/pale skin/Northern European notion does not work as pale white skin appeared in humans countless millenia before dairy was ever consumed in any quantity(indeed the original apeman is said to have had pale skin under the fur, judging from a past discussion I had with PP) . Plus, hominids survived in  Arctic areas well before dairy-cattle-domestication got started.

As regards countless reports online, I should add that for every raw vegan success story online even after 20+ years, there are a 100+ stories where either short-term or long-term raw vegans(and even former raw vegan gurus)  admit to having to quit 100 percent raw vegan diets or face further ill-health. So it is easy to see that raw vegan diets do not work, given all the reports.

Same applies to raw dairy reports. Sure there are the fanatics who advocate raw dairy as a sort of wonder-drug and there is also the multitude who report having issues with raw dairy. However, when one looks at the reports of many raw-dairy advocates, one finds that a large proportion of those admit to experiencing very unpleasant, so-called "detoxes" after they consumed a sizeable amount of raw dairy, but not after any other raw foods. This is a pretty clear indication that these people actually had some form of food-intolerance/allergy towards raw dairy but were in denial.  If you join the closed Primal Diet yahoo group you will find numerous examples thereof, with people actually proud of the intense pain they go through regularly with these so-called "detoxes".

[yon yonson]

well i think miles just definitively proved that small amounts of milk are indeed 'paleo'. kudos.

and fyi, i don't drink milk, but you would be crazy not to if you shot that deer and found milk inside. it's common sense

[Iguana]

In that way, small occasional amounts of grilled meat, tubers or anything are also lower paleolithic since it could sometimes be found after a volcanic eruption or a natural forest fire or even on a rock heated by the sun. That’s very likely why we have ways to eliminate abnormal molecules produced by heat.

It could well be the same for milk. Perhaps our hunters ancestors very occasionally drank small amounts of it in such circumstances,  but they might as well not have cared at all for that little bit of milk if not attracted by its smell and taste. It could be that they were more attracted by the liver.

Previously to organized hunting of big animals, they had access to carcass leftover by the predators only, so no milk.  

I was induced in error by Comby’s report. Thanks to Miles for this video.

[TylerDurden]

The real problem is the assumption that if other milk from animals was available that we would be adapted to dairy by now. PP previously gave the example of pandas who are still unadapted to eating bamboo even after 2 million years+.

As for our ability to get rid of toxins, all species have that as an innate ability. The trouble is that toxins in cooked foods are too great in number for the body to effectively deal with them(although admittedly caloric restriction and frequent daily exercise does help reduce the toxins somewhat).

[Iguana]

 

As for our ability to get rid of toxins, all species have that as an innate ability. The trouble is that toxins in cooked foods are too great in number for the body to effectively deal with them(although admittedly caloric restriction and frequent daily exercise does help reduce the toxins somewhat).

Yes, I forgot to say that this ability is adapted to very occasional small amounts only, as could sometimes (but seldom) be found in nature. The process (various illnesses) flares and may become dangerous with the usual standard diet if the intake of cooked food is not stopped.