Author Topic: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.  (Read 12242 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 04:22:24 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Brother

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Re: Study suggestes Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2010, 03:39:23 pm »
interesting, but I dont believe in their suggestion because atleast part of it is based on a wrong observation. Testosterone makes men calm and collected. Low testosterone makes us aggressive.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm

The old "testosterone is manlyman clubbing females over the head hormones" are not correct. at all. In fact, in our society most of the males we call alfas are really overcompensating betas. An alfa does not need to impress, his whole chemical makeup gives him a clear advantage over his peers. The beta needs to compensate to draw in voluntary breeding subjects. Compensate with job, car, house, status. None of that means a fucking thing if you are well ahead of the real game (nature) and you know it. So the alfas chill and the betas get all worked up, are aggresive, unpredictable, and think they are alfas!

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Study suggestes Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2010, 04:16:45 pm »
The assumption that modern humans are monogamous is not true.

Humans today and in 20 years ago are and were aggressive when it comes to mating.

Humans today and in history are in constant warfare.

Indeed we are lucky we are living in relative peace time for an extended period.

I wonder how long it will last.

But I teach my children that it isn't always peace time and they shouldn't expect it to be peace time within their entire life span.
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Offline Brother

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 07:58:29 pm »
I agree with everything Good Sameritan said.

Quote
Indeed we are lucky we are living in relative peace time for an extended period.

except this. I don't think that we are in a relative peace. I think we have more and more devestating wars than ever before. But also in our close community. Example: 15 years ago when I started "going out", if violence erupted it was usually between 2 airheads that just needed to let steam out. A circle would be formed and anyone trying to interfere before one of them gave up was a sure way to get a good ass kicking or scolding from the crowd. The only thing that made the group interfere was if it went too far if one of them showed to have no self control. Afterwards it was not uncommon to see the same 2 airheads in the bar together, since the anger was released emidiately, strength was tested and hatred was not allowed to build. It all made sense.

But I have seen a sharp rise in psycopath violence, in which whole groups attack a single person, often with blunt weapons and or knifes. It was seen as an ultimate coward move and owned you nothing but public loathing just 15 years ago. Now it is "the way things a handled" and it appears to be socially acceptable behaviour in the generations after mine.

Ofcourse I have no evidence since no direct study is made. But I suspect that the sharp drop in testosterone levels in males, might actually be part of the trigger for this phenomenon.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 10:53:41 am »
That article is a classic example of unscientific thinking. It took a report of longer ring finger to index finger ratios and extrapolated that into a culture-laden Puritanical criticism ("sex-obsessed thugs"). One could turn that around and claim that modern humans are sexually-repressed wimps, but neither assertion would be scientific. Of course, newspapers tend to be less concerned with science than with selling papers via sensationalism.

There's a more responsible report here:

"Dr Campbell Rolian from the University of Calgary adds: ‘Evidence for the social systems of our ancestors has always been ambiguous, and no single approach will likely ever give a definitive answer.’" http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2010/100311.html

Fascinating--my ring finger is longer than my index finger--about the same ratio as that of the Neanderthal finger bones in the image. This is yet another interesting characteristic I share with Neanderthals (along with red hair, greenish eyes--and getting a bit greener with a RPD, pale skin, doing well on a meat-heavy diet and being descended from an area that Neanderthals lived in), though I don't feel like a sex-obsessed thug. :P Guess I'll have to teach that journalist a lesson by killing him, feasting on his liver, tongue, brain and marrow, and taking his female companion. ;)

I wonder if Neanderthals commonly had other traits I have like prominent canines, high saliva levels, and color blindness?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 11:34:29 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 12:14:10 pm »
My ring finger is about the same as my index.

But it might be insignificant as attached and unattached ear lobes. Mine are attached btw.

Is there advantages and disadvantages to attached and unattached?

Haha, the longest toe on my foot is my index toe (the one right next to my big toe)

Haha

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 07:38:27 am »
Haha, the longest toe on my foot is my index toe (the one right next to my big toe)
 
Haha
That's called Morton's toe, aka Morton's syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton's_toe
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26422
 
Interestingly, it's also called "pied de Néanderthal," so perhaps it's a Neanderthal trait?
 
Morton’s Toe?
http://therunningbarefoot.com/?p=1518
This guy says going barefoot reduced his pronation from Morton's toe.

People with Morton's toe tend to find that Vibram Five Finger shoes don't work well for them and that asphalt is even more difficult to run on than for other folks:
http://therunningbarefoot.com/?p=2652
http://www.barefootrunners.org/build2/forum-topic/fellowship-mortons-toe
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 08:43:07 am »
That's called Morton's toe, aka Morton's syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton's_toe
WHAO! That first pic is extreme.

this is mine



web cam pic

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 08:51:22 am »
Going barefoot and wearing barefoot-style shoes may also help your smaller toes splay out some. At least it helped my toes splay. Several of mine used to overlap. Now only the piggy toes are partially overlapped. Most of the splaying occurred just from dietary change, surprisingly, but not wearing constricting shoes also appears to have helped.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:23:33 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 09:48:57 am »
Going barefoot and wearing barefoot-style shoes may also help your smaller toes splay out some. At least it helped my toes splay. Several of mine used to overlap. Now only the piggy toes are partially overlapped. Most of the splaying occurred just from dietary change, surprisingly, but not wearing constricting shoes also appears to have helped.
Tight shoes have done damage to our feet   >:

I been walking bare often lately in parks. My toes def spread more when walking bare. I want to get some eskimo boots bad, or moccaosins!
For the winter!!

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2010, 09:50:38 am »
Man, walking bare, feels so good! In dirt and leaves etc.

Amazing.

Offline miles

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 10:10:24 am »
My feet.
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Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 11:10:11 am »

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 11:14:02 am »
Diversity.
A beautiful thing :)

@miles
Reminds me of my uncles feet. High or low arch?

Offline miles

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 11:47:27 am »
lol at the 'hand', that is crazy different!

Hmm I'm not sure about the arch.
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Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 12:58:15 pm »
lol at the 'hand', that is crazy different!

Hmm I'm not sure about the arch.
Your arch looks about the same as mine from what i can tell.

BTW
What it be, to see a neanderthal in person, or any human during that paleo period.
Studying human past during paleo period is very interesting to me.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 07:32:19 pm »
This is getting spooky. I was curious about all the characteristics I share with Neanderthals, so I checked them out some more and looked at images of their skeletons and H. sapiens sapiens skeletons and noticed something familiar about Neanderthals' rib cage--it juts out at the bottom, which is what mine does, whereas most H. sapiens sapiens' rib cages turn inward at the bottom. I used to think this might be a mild deformity of mine. Now I'm thinking that it may be one of several natural features I inherited from Neanderthals. If so and if Neanderthals were facultative carnivores like scientists claim (eating mostly meats, with some plant foods), it could explain why I do so well on a VLC facultatively carnivorous diet.

I also have more of a brow ridge than most people, though not nearly as pronounced as H. sapiens neanderthalensis. Here's the list of coincidences I've noticed so far:

red hair
greenish eyes that became a bit greener on a facultatively carnivorous diet
pale skin
same ring/index finger ratio as Neanderthals
ribs that flair out a little at the bottom instead of turning in
stomach and lower chest area don't taper inward much
brow ridge (sulcus) slightly more pronounced than avg
descended from an area inhabited by Neanderthals
fare well on a facultatively carnivorous diet

I don't know if these traits of mine were common for Neanderthals, but now I wonder if they were:
pronounced canine teeth
color blind

lol at the 'hand', that is crazy different!

Hmm I'm not sure about the arch.
The arch looks a little flat to me, but you do have some arch and that may improve with RPD and barefoot walking because mine did. No guarantees of course.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2010, 04:04:17 am »
The arch looks a little flat to me, but you do have some arch and that may improve with RPD and barefoot walking because mine did. No guarantees of course.
I don't think arch has much to do with shoe wearing and RPD in some cases. My mom's arch is much higher than mine and she doesn't do RPD and wore shoes her whole life. She's 60.

Offline Sully

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2010, 04:07:49 am »
I actually think a low arch is common in tribal people walking bare most of their life.

http://www.readingonthetoilet.com/horror-modern-shoes/


Edit: My mom's high arch must be from the horrible shoes woman wear nowadays.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 04:16:35 am by Sully »

Offline miles

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2010, 06:02:35 am »
The arch looks a little flat to me, but you do have some arch and that may improve with RPD and barefoot walking because mine did. No guarantees of course.

Umm??? I've ran and walked barefoot for 3-4 years. There's nothing wrong with the arch in my foot. If you have a big gap it's because you have no muscle. I challenge you to a race when I come to the USA...

My foot has muscle... it flexes.. If I am standing with my feet flat why would it be arched?? This is my foot just normal off of the ground.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 06:25:17 am by miles »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Study suggests Neanderthals were more aggressive etc.
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2010, 06:20:36 am »
I don't think arch has much to do with shoe wearing and RPD in some cases. My mom's arch is much higher than mine and she doesn't do RPD and wore shoes her whole life. She's 60.
Agreed and I certainly wasn't trying to imply that everyone with good arches must be eating RPD and barefooting (and I never mean to imply that my results apply to everyone else--see #3 in my signature below). I would have to be crazy to think that, as it's obviously not true (one only has to look around at people on the beach or their footprints to see that all SAD dieters do not have flat feet or other obvious issues like obesity and many people are able to do quite well despite eating crappy diets and following unhealthy lifestyles)--though I have been called crazy by some folks for eating a RPD. :) I'm puzzled why you would think I was thinking that just because in response to "Hmm I'm not sure about the arch" I shared how RPD and barefooting improved my arches in case my experience may potentially be of service to others. If my experience is of no use to you, feel free to ignore it.

I actually think a low arch is common in tribal people walking bare most of their life.

http://www.readingonthetoilet.com/horror-modern-shoes/
Perhaps so, do you mean you have seen more flat-looking feet on tribal people than that example? As a child, when my arches looked like that image, probably a bit flatter looking, my parents were told that my feet were too flat and I was given orthotic arch inserts for my shoes. Since I went Paleo I developed more of an arch, so I thought there might possibly be some potential for further arch development in feet that look like that, but if not, so be it. Has no one else here experienced any improvements in their feet arches from RPD or barefooting?

I also found this image of Barefoot Ted, showing his similarly flat-looking feet--more so than Miles--and he's been running barefoot for quite a while (though I don't know what his diet is), so there may be no advantage to a somewhat higher arch. Who knows.


Umm??? I've ran and walked barefoot for 3-4 years. There's nothing wrong with the arch in my foot. If you have a big gap it's because you have no muscle.
All I know is, my feet looked flat and I was told they were too flat, then I ate Paleo and developed more of an arch and more of a muscular springiness in my feet and became stronger, not weaker, and I can run faster and longer, and since I started barefooting my arches developed a bit further. If this doesn't apply to you, fine. No need to get bent out of shape. I was only trying to share a potentially useful experience in response to your comment: "Hmm I'm not sure about the arch" from Miles. Why did you say that if you didn't think there was potentially something suboptimal about your arch? Please also note that I said "The arch looks a little flat to me"--I didn't say it is flat or say that you have clinical pes planus.

Quote
My foot has muscle... it flexes.. If I am standing with my feet flat why would it be arched?? This is my foot just normal off of the ground.
Yup, I can see the arch better in that photo. It looks like the other photo was just deceiving. I don't have a camera, but mine is like this image:



and this:


and this from Luna Sandals:


The arches in these feet look a bit higher than in your first image, yet these feet still have muscle, as you can see. And this guy looks like he has higher arches than me and is a barefoot runner:


I don't know why my increased arch would necessarily mean that RPD and barefooting had eliminated or reduced my arch muscles, especially given that my feet feel stronger and I can run better. So it's possible to have an even higher arch than mine and still have muscle. However, too high an arch is, like flat feet, considered suboptimal, such as this example:



Again, I wasn't trying to imply that you or anyone has completely flat feet, just guessing that maybe there was potential for more arch development, which I read somewhere comes from strong connective tissues as well as muscle, but I don't claim to be an expert on this or anything else. If my guess was wrong, so be it and I'm sorry if you took any offense, as none was intended and I hope you'll forgive any poor wording on my part. The second photo you provided makes your arch much easier to see and since you're already barefooting extensively as well as eating RPD it's pretty much a moot point anyway.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 09:25:12 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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