Author Topic: Wikipedia  (Read 5048 times)

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Offline SkinnyDevil

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Wikipedia
« on: August 07, 2009, 09:59:36 pm »
I agree with you about Wikipedia. These “gate keepers” take themselves seriously as the guardian of the scientific orthodoxy and current beliefs. But in a sense that’s somewhat understandable for an encyclopedia : we must not expect too much of it.

Actually, the gatekeepers are only doing their jobs.

If one attempts to re-write the article with a particular unaccepted bias, one will find the ne material deleted quickly. If, on the other hand, one adds a section "criticisms" or alternative views that cite plenty of reputable sources, then the information will be left intact.

"Reputable sources" does not include "because it worked for me".
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Offline goodsamaritan

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 07:25:40 am »
"Reputable sources" does not include "because it worked for me".

"Reputable sources" also does not include testimonials from dozens of eczema or psoriasis cured individuals.

"Reputable sources" also does not include testimonials from dozens of raw paleo diet practitioners.

"Reputable sources" also does not include any of my teachers: Geoff Purcell, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, Barefoot Herbalist MH, Hulda Clark, Andreas Moritz, Dr. Tam Mateo, Manang Lorna, etc.

"Reputable sources" is anything in the "western medical $$$ camp". 

For example the WHO mandating h1n1 vaccinations for the entire world population.
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Offline SkinnyDevil

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 09:09:15 pm »
Testimonials do not replace research. One can not reputably cite testimonials.

If one instead cites magazine articles and books (even those that are just filled with testimonials), then one is citing sources and will meet the Wiki requirements.

They should have no problem with AJ or others who have written books provided, again, that you ADD TO the existing article rather than try to replace major sections.

It's all in the approach.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:46:35 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 11:24:09 pm »
To a small extent, you're right. When I tried to correct the raw foodism page, any alterations I made(despite the previous entries being often deliberately false) came a cropper, but the new info(last I checked) re toxins in cooked foods hasn't been completely deleted yet.

I am still NOT convinced re wikipedia's reliability. Time and again, when I added extra info, dud info supporting the anti-raw side was insisted on being kept, while  much of my info, despite being considered an essential aspect of raw-foodism beliefs by rawists, was constantly being attacked as being superfluous by idiots who'd never once taken the trouble to read up anything about raw foodism before making such statements.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:47:43 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Iguana

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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 04:43:00 pm »
We had the exactly the same problem with Wikipedia in French. GCB, 2 others knowledgeable contributors including a MD, an agronomist and I were finally more or less banned after having done a lot of work to objectively rewrite the article about instinctotherapy.

There was endless talks with stupids ignoramus on the discussion page and finally a mockery of an arbitration.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 05:03:36 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 08:55:11 pm »
Wikipedia has good and bad aspects to it:-


I have recently rewritten the raw foodism page and it is now much, much better:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism

The trick is this:-

1) Make sure to only edit pages which are none too popular. The raw foodism page goes through long periods of inactivity as regards editing, here and there, so it is sometimes possible to edit/add/delete without someone always attacking your efforts.

2) In order to keep a wikipedia page free of opposing bias, one has to monitor that page regularly. This is why I recently asked people on rawpaleoforum to check the raw foodism wikipedia page once a month. All we would need is c. 10 people who would be willing to step in at any time and participate in any arbitrations or to revert any trollish edits, and things would be fine. If 10 people randomly checked the raw foodism wikipedia page once a month each ( or 120 people randomly checked that page once a year, each?), we could easily maintain the site without heavy bias against raw foodists. There are some nasty, subtle tricks one has to watch out for :- for example, I only noticed , maybe a year later, that some anti-raw fanatic had deliberately inserted dud links in place of my previous solid anti-Wrangham references, while keeping the actual text the same.


3) One does need to compromise. I, for example, was happy to allow multiple references to food-poisoning to appear in the raw foodism page, and in return they were unable to convincingly argue against the deletion of the "potential harmful effects of cooked foods" section, despite desperate efforts by 1 or 2 very biased individuals.

4) One has to know the wikipedia guidelines thoroughly. For example, I had 1 anally-retentive and biased penny-pincher who insisted that no online notes/references could be added unless raw food diets were specifically mentioned in the relevant sites/articles - he also hypocritically insisted that only well-known newspaper articles could be cited, yet, due to simple ignorance/stupidity, decided that an independent on sunday article wasn't important enough(!). Fortunately, an unbiased individual who was neither pro- or anti-raw, pointed out that wikipedia allowed 3 different ranks of references so that a minor description of a particular raw diet could link to a rawpalaeo website, for example.

The problem lies with people who are totally unaware of their bias but pretend to be impartial. I had 1 female contributor who automatically assumed that Wrangham was right, openly derided raw food diets as being "fringe", but liked to claim that she wanted me to have my say. I had to point out that Wrangham was hardly mentioned in serious scientific articles, and that, even in those, most of them stated that "most anthropologists" or "many anthropologists" viewed Wrangham as being completely wrong - 1 article even derided Wrangham as a mere "chimp researcher" and not a serious anthropologist. I even included an article in which Wrangham had admitted that he had no real evidence to support his claims as yet. I lost that argument as the other poster was so biased/determined and I was outnumbered, but at least I managed to get any mention of Wrangham deleted from the introduction to the article, as I had relevantly pointed out that Wrangham mentions should legally only be allowed in the criticism section.

Well, I think my current effort is going to last quite a bit.  I will have to check it every now and then, of course. In recent times, I have had 1 raw vegan troll deleting the entire raw animal foods section but he has now been warned by various monitors and bots and will be kicked out if he continues(plus his deletions were reverted within 1 minute of his entering them by various  bots). I also had 1 anti-raw fanatic trying to delete the whole "beliefs" section because they made claims he did not agree with. As I pointed out to him, his argument was unjustified as these statements were phrased as beliefs. In the end, I simply inserted into some of the statements an extra "raw foodists believe that" in addition to the one which preceded the whole paragraph("common beliefs of raw foodists").


Another point:- there are 2 large, opposing camps within Wikipedia. 1 camp is totally biased and only wants to  include information on mainstream viewpoints/ideas, while the other camp is far more intelligent, wanting to include information on every possible viewpoint or subject, as long as all sides/views are covered for each subject.


Also, if others laboriously cite a particular rule in trying to delete pro-raw information, make sure to use the same rule  against them in another part of the article which is anti-raw - they then often back down.


I also made it a special rule to include as many solid scientific references as possible to any info I added in on raw diets. I already knew that most of the anti-raw information had extremely poor references, so that it  would make it much easier to mention this as a means of preventing others from attempting to delete pro-raw info. The "potential harmful effects of cooked foods" section was my original idea, and includes so many solid scientific studies/references on the harm done by cooking, that it makes the anti-raw side look ridiculous by comparison.

As SD said, though, it is definitely not acceptable to mention testimonials or to state things like "raw foods are the healthiest foods on the planet" or some similiar arbitrary statement. One has to include dozens of scientific references here and there - the more one has, the weaker the anti-raw side seems.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 02:00:18 am by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Wikipedia
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 11:51:35 pm »

Thanks, Geoff for these pertinent advices. But I'm not going to contribute to Wikipedia anymore and anyway I'm banned on this subject until I have done 2000 contributions on other subjects, which is a totally ridiculous punishment!
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline the PresiDenT

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Re: Wikipedia
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 02:02:57 am »
"Reputable sources" also does not include testimonials from dozens of eczema or psoriasis cured individuals.

"Reputable sources" also does not include testimonials from dozens of raw paleo diet practitioners.

"Reputable sources" also does not include any of my teachers: Geoff Purcell, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, Barefoot Herbalist MH, Hulda Clark, Andreas Moritz, Dr. Tam Mateo, Manang Lorna, etc.

"Reputable sources" is anything in the "western medical $$$ camp". 

For example the WHO mandating h1n1 vaccinations for the entire world population.

reputable sources = $$$$$$$
therefore, they are not really reputable. the whole thing about these sources, is that they are reputable becuase mutltple people agree about them, even if all those people are wrong. REPUTABLE CAN  BE THIRD PARTY TRIAL AND ERROR. if it works for you then it must be reputable regardless of what some doctor/textbook says.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Wikipedia
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 02:13:44 am »
Yes, Wikipedia tends to frown on anyone who concentrates too much on 1 wikipedia page.  I was also faced with that accusation once, but I was fortunately  able to point out that I had previously made alterations/suggestions to a few other wikipedia pages as well(most somehow connected to raw foodism in a way, but a few were not). The thing is, the other wikipedia pages I came across seemed largely fine without bias so I had nothing worth adding to them, and in many cases where I did try, I xas told that there was already too much info anyway). It was only the raw foodism wikipedia page which was seriously f*cked up, as the introduction etc. for a long time stated  outright lies such as the ridiculous claim "Richard Wrangham has proven that a raw diet is unnecessary and even harmful as he has proven that humans have adapted to cooked foods" or whatever.

Anyway, if anyone wants to read about the struggles I had to face in the past re improving the raw foodism wikipedia page, they should read the Discussions page starting with Archive 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Raw_foodism/Archive_1

where my comments start appearing much further down and ending with the archive 5 section(I am listed there as "Loki0115"). This gives an overview of the sort of anti-raw arguments I came up against and how I was able to defeat most of them. The other key point is to have several people always monitoring the raw foodism wikipedia page on and off, as strength in numbers also counts(but only if one knows how to intepret the rules properly).

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Offline Brother

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Re: Wikipedia
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 03:32:11 am »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Wikipedia
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 04:41:00 am »
It's all very well to be cynical, but the raw foodism wikipedia page is the first thing people come across when searching raw foodism online. If you want something better and more permanent then create a raw foodism wiki page where only rawists are allowed to contribute.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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