High meat risks?

[TylerDurden]

How do we know that those particular bacteria are in high meat? It would be fascinating to look at it under a microscope and to see exactly what bacteria are present.

I don't think it matters. The bacteria all seem to have some beneficial effect on the brain, given anecdotal reports re high-meat and this soil-bacteria study.

[donrad]

My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.

There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.

I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.

[KD]

There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.

I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.

It is believed that in between our brains becoming larger - and prior to being able to use developed tools for hunting - that humans were one of the first species ever to 'look up' and comprehend that vultures were circling around easily acquired food. Ages of feasting on the decomposing flesh and bones led to larger brain size and hence more efficient tools that were later used for hunting. I agree this is not the same as high meats as people are experimenting with here - as that is largely a process invented by aajonus - however it in turn is modeled after other HGs who do in fact long ferment meats in formats akin to curing, but also just flat out buried in an animal stomach or in the ground for long periods of time.

Anyway, regardless of that who cares. Virtually everyone ( that lives ) has positive testimonials with high meat. for me this includes people I know personally. More importantly, most of these testimonials include effects that would never happen with fresh or aged meats, so it becomes sort of a non issue how frequently rotting meat was consumed by perfectly healthy people in some garden of eden. If I was forced to live in a sewer, I would probably do my best to clean it up.

[sabertooth]

We all live in the celestial sewer, even in old Kentucky there is high levels of mold and biologicaly harmfull garbage. Through history we have had to fight against other life forms for our own survival. In that struggle we formed a symbiosis with the soil bacteria that lived in the dirt that our food generated off of. The symbiotic nature of our evolutonary development make bacteria a crucial element for human life, without bacteria the mold and fungus would eat us alive. The particular symbiosis that happens with the use of highmeat could be a type of reactivation of an old and long repressedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_%28biology%29Mutualistic  relationship that was a part of our evolution and embedded deep within the life structures within us. The bacterial high we get from high meat might be a way for our DNA to reward  us for fulfilling some type of genetic craving for the benefits that the bacteria provide. The boast in serotonin that happens with high meat may be just as beneficial as the boast we get with exposure to sun light. People can live without exposure to sunlight as they can live without exposure to earth bacteria, but they will not be in optimal health.

The new theory I have been toying with involves viewing high meat Not as a probiotic but a symbiotic, a substance that enhances life force. Through our evolution our genes have been shaped by the interactions with of these symbiotic organisms that live in us as well as around us and high meat works with this principle to restore this life force in those with the genetic need for it.

[risrosen]

The new theory I have been toying with involves viewing high meat Not as a probiotic but a symbiotic, a substance that enhances life force. Through our evolution our genes have been shaped by the interactions with of these symbiotic organisms that live in us as well as around us and high meat works with this principle to restore this life force in those with the genetic need for it.

Interesting.  Perhaps you've heard of symbiotic rawfoodists, raw vegans who claim that the key to good health is the accumulation of 3-5 lbs. of aerobic bacteria in the body.

[miles]

Does high-meat only provide temporary 'benefits'?

[TylerDurden]

My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.

There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.

I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.

  The only reason rotting meat smells and tastes foul to us is because of ingrained habits based on cooked food diets. In a way, this makes sense:- everything is now so sanitised and bacteria-free, that a cooked-food-dieter has a high chance of things going wrong with his system if he introduces just a little in the way of bacteria, as his immune-system etc. is so fouled up.

While aged cooked foods are potentially a real disaster due to the combination of bacteria and unhealthy meats, high-meat is perfectly safe.As for the scavenger theory, it makes more sense. Humans, like other animals were opportunists and also faced frequent periods of famine, especially during winter or very severe weather etc., so they would not have solely focused on fresh, raw meats. Another point is that, without refrigeration, they would have been forced to allow some raw meats to age for a few days, when facing famine etc.

[TylerDurden]

Does high-meat only provide temporary 'benefits'?

I was merely mentioning my own experience. I suspect that somehow, in my own case, the immune-system got eventually used to the bacteria so no longer got the usual reaction that boosts dopamine levels in the brain when excess levels of bacteria enter the body. Took months to occur, and after periods of no high-meat, the effect came back when I tried high-meat again.

[sabertooth]

I was merely mentioning my own experience. I suspect that somehow, in my own case, the immune-system got eventually used to the bacteria so no longer got the usual reaction that boosts dopamine levels in the brain when excess levels of bacteria enter the body. Took months to occur, and after periods of no high-meat, the effect came back when I tried high-meat again.

I wonder if high meat bacterial elements are only needed in finite quantities and once you have reached the optimal levels that your biology requires then the serotonin boost fades out a little because you have reached the limits of its benefits. I have noticed that high meat does lose its dramatic effects if eatten every day , that's why I will go a few days without and cater the amount I consume based roughly on what my biochemical needs are. There might be differing needs between individuals regarding who gets the maximum benefits from high meat. Some people may already have a Good gut ecology that produces the serotonin boasting substances within the body and there is little need to supplement, while others may have had past imbalances or have been altered by the use of antibiotic drugs or years of poor nutrition, these are the people who could benefit most from high meats effects, although I believe it can be a general tonic for anyone who embarks on this paleo way of living

[Hannibal]

There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat.

Have you read this article - http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/sdef/ANT3428/readings_spring_2008/Scavenging_diet_Blumenschine_1987.pdf ?

If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.

I really really enjoy when it's aged to some degree - I feel so addicted to eat it. 
The one-week-old lamb hearts or tongues are 100 times better than fresh ones.

[miles]

Have you read this article

I didn't read it yet, but it says 'early hominid', not 'early humans' from what I saw.

[Hannibal]

  it says 'early hominid', not 'early humans' from what I saw.

That's true.
But still a valuable piece of work IMHO.

[raw-al]

My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.

There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.

I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.

While your thoughts are eloquent and inspiring the experience of a heck of a lot of people is that HM works.

My friend from Tibet tells me that when he lived there in a very remote area, they would kill an animal for food but the meat got tastier the older it got and when it turned blue it was primo. Personally I think that ultimately ditching the fridge is the answer.

Interestingly nothing in nature is superfluous, even sewage. Properly treated (by leaving it in a heap till it "cooks") it is "the" primo of fertilizers. When trees fall thy make excellent fertilizer. The modern version of putting all sewage together into pipes is the problem, not the sewage.

My theory is that you may be confusing the "germ theory" of disease for the "germ fact" of disease. Prior to reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz I was a partial believer in the "germ fact", now I am a 100% non-believer.

Ayurveda clearly says that germs do not a disease cause. Eating the wrong stuff for you is the cause. (along with some other reasons)

[donrad]

There are more bacteria in a healthy human digestive system than there are cells in the whole body. If we have been eating the right foods these are beneficial bacteria and yeasts that help us digest our food and provide us with vitamins and enzymes necessary for survival. If these bacteria are destroyed because we don't eat live foods, take antibiotics, or drink excessive amounts of alcohol. The white film on the surface of organic fruit is beneficial bacteria. Cabbage plants have a lot of the good bacteria which quickly multiply to make sauerkraut. Raw milk from grassfed cows has good bacteria which will turn the milk to yoghurt if left at room temperature.

Unfortunately bad bacteria do exhist. They produce toxic substances that can make people sick and even die. Those who are most at risk are young children, the eldery, and people with comprimised immune systems like the person who started this discussion. A strong person with good nutrition and healthy digestive flaura would probably have temporary digestive distress and soon recover stronger than before. Humans have good immune systems that can learn, adapt and build defences.

If we lived somewhere where there were no tourists and we hunted animals in the local environment and we butchered them ouselves we probably would not get sick even if the meat was infected. However in our modern society the meat we acquire is raised anywhere in the world, under who know what kind of filthy conditions, butchered in possibly filthy disease ridden processing factories, and cut and handeled many times by possibly diseased people. There is a hugh risk here if we let the meat rot with whatever it got from wherever. Kind of like Russian roulette.

Our ancestors learned this lesson a long long time ago and took steps to control the spoilage of their meat. They used salting, drying, cooling, smoking, and by introducing lots of good bacteria before the bad ones can get established.

You may benefit from consuming high meat. Your neighbor may end up in the hospital. We constantly hear about meat recalls that are causing death and disease. Please use caution. I personally avoid rotted meat and get my good bacteria and yeast from home-made raw milk yoghurt and home-made fermented garden vegetables and vinegar at every meal.

Best of luck to you and have a happy raw Thanksgiving.

[yon yonson]

donrad, just curioius, what makes you think home made fermented veggies are any less dangerous than home made fermented meat?

[KD]

There is a hugh risk here if we let the meat rot with whatever it got from wherever. Kind of like Russian roulette.

Our ancestors learned this lesson a long long time ago and took steps to control the spoilage of their meat. They used salting, drying, cooling, smoking, and by introducing lots of good bacteria before the bad ones can get established.

You may benefit from consuming high meat. Your neighbor may end up in the hospital. We constantly hear about meat recalls that are causing death and disease. Please use caution. I personally avoid rotted meat and get my good bacteria and yeast from home-made raw milk yoghurt and home-made fermented garden vegetables and vinegar at every meal.

hmm, I think what you are saying here is a bit different from the previous and more agreeable (I guess). Sure, maybe these things provide adequate health for you and perhaps could be safe 'alternatives' for everyone. I'm definitely in the camp that you are perhaps even right about the Russian roulette depending on ones process or state of health, although I think you are over-exaggerating.

The point still remains that some people might need this kind of process and glean not so much from sauerkraut or fermented milk. I eat some of these foods myself and consider them to be kind of light-years away in effects. I'm sure someone will come by and rip you a 'paleo' new one anyway...but that is my viewpoint from the experience of eating of all these things...

I think you are glossing over something by saying it is unnecessary..which one can apply to just about anything in raw eating. How necessary is it to eat testicles or brains or bone marrow? how beneficial is it? Traditional peoples also prepared high meats separate than the processes you mention, and they didn't even has as many health concerns like you speak so that ultimately makes it more valuable today because the meat is worse quality as well as individual health. Also I think also some people know where their meat comes from and don't believe it matters much if 'diseased' people touch it.

[raw-al]

Donrad,
OK, now you have clarified your thoughts. I agree that factory produced animals are bad news. That's why in any discussion here of high meat, the words; organic and grass-fed are always used or if they are left out they are implied.

I have eaten grain finished beef and grocery store crap but that was in the beginning. MY HM is organic and grass-fed or wild caught. The raspberries that I am eating are questionable because they are "too perfect" but I eat them anyways.

[donrad]

My fermented vegetables are less dangerous than high meat because I control the fermentation with salt, temperature, and the introduction of beneficial bacteria starter. Anything that gets stinky or slimy gets composted. Everyone I have given some of my kimchi to gives it back to me, except for Koreans. I have a Germanic heritage and love kraut. Most people think it stinks. I drink the juice. One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

I can remember reading about comparable lengths of intestines in relation to adapted nutrition. A dog or wolf intestine is short and they have a very acidic stomach. Anything they eat get zapped with acid and is soon expelled. Humans have a very long intestine and is a very hospitable environment for bacteria growth. Vultures head's are bald so they can stick their heads in a rotting carcass and it does not stay with them.

It may be an evolutionary thing as to why high meat stinks and tastes bad to most people. Our ancestors who avoided it were more likely to have children who survived than those ate it and fed it to their kids. In evolutionary terms even a 2% advantage over a million years adds up. However I concede that is may be highly beneficial to individual people.

Not all snakes are bad, some are beneficial. But if you live in a jungle and are afraid of snakes you are more likely to survive.

[donrad]

This is a quotation from the book "Food Enzymes for Health and Longevity": "Fish are put into a hole and covered with grass and earth and the mass is allowed to ferment and decay. I learned, to my utter astonishment , they would eat those rotten poisonous foods and thrive on them. Lest the reader might think that the cooking process would destroy the poisons in their vitiated foods, I wish to say that in only a few instances did they cook their food. The usual customary method was to devour it raw." Written by Garber who lived a number of years among the Eskimos in northern Alaska.

Food for thought.

[sabertooth]

I was curious as to the percentage of raw paleos that use High meat. Are there any successful low carbers who fare well without the use of any aged meats. I want to know how necessary aged meat is for people who eat low carbs as I do., I have been eatting aged meats and high meat throughout my diet and I feel a craving for aged meats. Its gives me a dog mouth feeling and I have experience the greatest improvement in health imaginable though I am not sure to what degree I should give credit to rotten meat as AV had done. I don't even get an upset stomach no matter how much I eat, were as before I was ill everytime I ate anything. I have been told my mouth can give off a strong smell on my highmeat days, I love the whole experience and believe that my bacteria laden digestive juices gives me an improved ability to digest meats and especially eggs.

If I eat egg yolks with high meat I get a great boast of energy, but egg yolks on their own are not to appealing. I have my own chickens and can only stomach pasture eggs. Most eggs I have bought at the store are bitter and I cant stomach them, I do urge caution for newbies not to go out and get store bought eggs and eat rotten meat while washing it down with a yolk, but I was curious if any veterans have noticed how eggs digest better when eatting aged meats or high meat.

[Hannibal]

Unfortunately bad bacteria do exhist. They produce toxic substances that can make people sick and even die.

Yeah, Clostridium botulinum for example. But it only develops in an anaerobic conditions so it's not an issue, 'cause we always say that airing of the meat is very important.
Besides, do you know that LDL is protective against bacterial toxins? Staphylococcus aureus alpha toxin for example. Dr Sucharit Bhakdi and others have done researches about this issue.
And selenium, zinc? They also neutralize some toxins.
So the good nutrtion enables you to deal with them.
Moreover the balance between the good bacteria and bad ones is crucial.
Thera are trillions of good bacteria in an aged good quality meat and their potency is Brobdingnagian.

[TylerDurden]

I have found that all things digest better when one eats high-meat at the same time, or just before; even cooked foods. As for high-meat usage, I unfortunately only started using it once my health-problems were more or less solved. I wish I hasd tried it earlier, but I'd been scared. I did use slightly-aged raw meats in the early stages, though, and they were vital as my teeth and digestive system were seriously fouled up at the time.