best single vegetable to add to a carnivore diet?

[Alan]

I currently eat the same way Lex does, with the exception that my fat supplement is KerryGold butter vice rendered tallow. Another exception is that I almost always buy grain-fed beef.

Because of this latter exception,  i wonder if adding a vegetable or two to the mix might be advisable.


Therefor, I seek nominations for vegetables which would:

1. be low in carbohydrates

2. be likely in the REAL WORLD OF COMMERCE AS EXISTS NOW,  not just in a 50-year old USDA lab analysis, to actually be micronutrient-packed.

3. have low flatus-generating capacity


I have zero indications or symptoms that I have any "deficiencies"  in my current diet. What I want to avoid though, is confirmation bias - the tendency to always look for anecdotes and/or valid experiments which agree with a currently held belief.

to be true to science, we must at all times be aggresively seeking to disprove that which we believe to be true.  Thus my interest in considering a change.

[SkinnyDevil]

Wild greens (or a simple "mixed green" collage) or some simple root veggies (carrots, radishes, etc.), perhaps?

Or if you like fatty foods, avocado.

[Iguana]

What I want to avoid though, is confirmation bias - the tendency to always look for anecdotes and/or valid experiments which agree with a currently held belief.

To be true to science, we must at all times be aggressively seeking to disprove that which we believe to be true.  Thus my interest in considering a change.

Very true! Differently or complementary said: avoid any belief and always be in the methodical doubt (according to Descartes).

About which vegetable is best suitable to a particular individual at a given moment... it always change! Everyone is different and constantly evolving as everything in our world is dynamic. You have to find yourself which one fits best to your actual needs for the time being. Tomorrow, it might be another one.

Cheers
Francois

[TylerDurden]

(pasteurised?)Butter, formerly, rendered tallow?  And grainfed raw meats - that last is worrying, long-term.

You could try sprouts(not alfalfa or beans, but something like watercress). Also, lettuce and various herbs like parsley. Avocado does seem the more nutritious option, though.

[bharminder]

I think firstly you must address the issue of pasteurized butter. Secondly, grain fed meats are not considered healthy as they are often mass factory farmed animals in cramped, unsanitary conditions. Sometimes they use animals too sick to walk for meat, as displayed by this video that came on the news :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDCh7nSUEQ




As for vegetables, I like cucumbers, tomatoes, kale, celery, broccoli, or carrots.

[Iguana]

Yes, I also agree with TD and Bharminder!

[KD]

other than the wild greens, the best market greens in my experience are herbs like dandelion, cilantro, and parsley. These also arn't very fibrous and might compliment meat well if one chooses. Seaweed and sauerkraut are pretty dense in the same respect. mushrooms. fruits like cucumber, avocado, lemons/limes fit your requirements too I believe. If i'm eating 'lettuce' I usually go for the more odder bitter varieties like frisee, watercress etc..thee also are probably more 'paleo' like the herbs above than to most vegetables and are probably more dense so you don't have to eat in bulk if you are doing it more supplemental to mostly meat.

[goodsamaritan]

In my country, the common "talbos ng kamote" / sweet potato tops (young leaves) is only 5 to 10 pesos per bunch and available in any wet market or supermarket and is organic by default.

Just pound it for juice and add a glass of water. 
Drink only once a week for maintenance.

This vegetable juice we use for:
- dengue fever
- stop internal hemorrhaging
- alkalize an acidic body.

[djr_81]

How is your health and what are your long term goals with RPD? Different parts of the plants, and likewise different types of plants, nurture different parts of the body just like different organs nurture different parts.

My personal choice would be long "tap"root vegetables (carrots, parsnips, daikon, beets) if I were to add a plant to my diet. The deeper the taproot the greater the minerals it will have.
Wild herbs/greens are another great addition but are obviously very seasonable and can be contaminated depending on where you gather. Dandelions in the spring are fantastic though and feel very nourishing to me.
There seems to be a lot of positive feedback here on the forum for both cucumber and celery as well so perhaps entertain these too.
Lastly, as KD recommends, a homemade ferment, such as a sauerkraut, is another excellent idea. These can be made from all sorts of vegetables too so don't limit yourself to just cabbage as a base.

[klowcarb]

Why bother with vegetables? If you have good meat, grassfed butter and some organs, you are eating a very healthy diet.

[Iguana]

Why bother with vegetables? If you have good meat, grassfed butter and some organs, you are eating a very healthy diet.

I don’t bother with vegetables, it’s just that I like to eat some vegetables, most days, feeling that I need it. I can’t eat meat only and I’ve excluded butter as well as anything non-paleo long ago. Humans are generally considered omnivores, not just carnivores, heh! But of course you’re welcome to eat exclusively carnivore (with butter, huh…) if you like and dare such an interesting experiment. As for what’s an healthy diet, there are huge disagreements; ask two nutritionists and they’ll tell you two wildly different tales.

Cheers
Francois

PS : Please have a look at this: ***-anti-fruit-anti-veg-anti-carbs-take-it-to-the-zero-carb-board-***

[yuli]

Heh, I don't "bother" with vegetables and fruits either...
its no bother to crack open some nuts, bite into a crisp apple, or enjoy some fresh greens.

What happens is, when I constantly eat meat, I start craving plants.
Then when I eat too many plants, I crave meat.

I also think humans are omnivores too. You don't need to know any science just LOOK at a human, do they look like an obligate carnivore? No way, look at our HANDS, the way our teeth and faces are, we look like omnivores...Humans remind me of monkeys, apes, pigs, raccoons and bears, which are all omnivores. We do not have the bodies and stomachs of herbivores, nor do we have the stomachs and bodies or carnivores either (ie. cats digestive systems are different then humans, shorter, more acidic), we are right down the middle, mix and match, anything goes...we are pigs lol

The biggest clue is how our jaws can move from side to side and the way our teeth look, totally different from all mammalian carnivores I know.
Another clue is that humans can live a long time on a vegan diet (a carnivore would not be able to do that)....

Not to say human can't live as carnivore at all...its like with dogs if you know what you're doing you can feed dogs omnivore diet and they will live on it, but they thrive on carnivore because they are carnivore.

It seems to me the people that do well as carnivore are the ones that were eating vegan OR had sugar problems before OR they have no choice (season, location etc). Correct me if I am wrong, but I know of no human that was on a successful omnivore diet that just decided to go carnivore just for the hell of it (I mean long term exclusive carnivore, not "this week I just ate meat cause I wanted to" type of deal). Its always cause they had some issues when eating carbs, but the MAJORITY of healthy people have no issues with carbs, meat or anything paleo, they have issues with eating crap junk foods though. People go carnivore to address issues they had, its like a treatment - and I am not saying that in a bad way at all.

Thats my speculation on the whole carni-omni deal

[PaleoPhil]

These are some nutrients that are supposed to be higher in grass-finished meats and fats:

Lower in total fat
Higher in beta-carotene
Higher in vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol)
Higher in the B-vitamins thiamin and riboflavin
Higher in the minerals calcium, magnesium, and potassium
Higher in total omega-3s
A healthier ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids (1.65 vs 4.84)
Higher in CLA (cis-9 trans-11), a potential cancer fighter
Higher in vaccenic acid (which can be transformed into CLA)

Source: http://www.eatwild.com/healthbenefits.htm

...as well as iodine.

You could get most of those nutrients from wild fatty fish, wild shellfish, raw fermented cod liver oil and fresh young organic greens/herbs. The problem is, all of these foods are more expensive than grass-finished meats and fats, although they are very nutrient rich so the cost-per-nutrient may be a bargain, but if you're trying to save money you may not save any by buying grain-finished meats/fats and then trying to make up for the lack of nutrients by buying these other expensive foods and/or supplements. A better way to try to save is probably to try to eat more organs and fats, which tend to be cheaper than muscle meats and fish, but many people don't like organs and fats (which is why they're cheaper, of course).

...do they look like an obligate carnivore?

Don't forget us facultative carnivores! I don't know whether humans are omnivores or facultative carnivores or a mixture that varies by genetic and epigenetic background as well as simple dietary adaptation (for example, the Inuit are known to have several unusual physical traits that are believed to be adaptations to cold climate and flesh-heavy diets), so I just speak for myself based on what seems to work best for me rather than tell other folks what I think they are. That way there's less reason for anyone to get upset.

[yuli]

Yeah, facultative is a key word here, optional.
If you are a carnivore like a cat or a wolf its not facultative so much 
The only point I was getting at is that we are not carnivores, we can choose to be so, but it does not make us so. The simple fact that we are choosing these things makes us omnivores big time.

Its true with people being so varied, having lived in every part of the world (and in the future maybe other planets), we have likely developed different adaptations to food, and have a pretty good ability to adapt. I am sure the Inuit are very differently adapted towards their environment physically, they had to be or they wouldn't have survived. This is what makes people so different and exactly why its bad to say that a single diet following so and so ratios is what everyone will do best on.

It happens with dogs too, you cannot feed huskies the same ratio/diet as bulldogs for example. We are like different people breeds, and then some of us are cross-breeds and then we develop into new breeds. 

... I just speak for myself based on what seems to work best for me rather than tell other folks what I think they are. That way there's less reason for anyone to get upset.

Bah! People will always find ways to get upset... they will get upset if you like a different video game then they do lol
Everyone more or less speaks for themselves, I wouldn't be saying anything if I put whatever experience I had from being born into whatever my opinion is. Being upset about these things is like being upset about people existing in general, they'll get over it.

[the PresiDenT]

I also think humans are omnivores too. You don't need to know any science just LOOK at a human, do they look like an obligate carnivore? No way, look at our HANDS, the way our teeth and faces are, we look like omnivores...Humans remind me of monkeys, apes, pigs, raccoons and bears, which are all omnivores. We do not have the bodies and stomachs of herbivores, nor do we have the stomachs and bodies or carnivores either (ie. cats digestive systems are different then humans, shorter, more acidic), we are right down the middle, mix and match, anything goes...we are pigs lol

The biggest clue is how our jaws can move from side to side and the way our teeth look, totally different from all mammalian carnivores I know.
Another clue is that humans can live a long time on a vegan diet (a carnivore would not be able to do that)....

i like hearing creative theories and this one makes sense to me. I would like to add my two cents to it as well: i think humans are in a transition from vegetarians (many primates) to a carnivore. that is where we got all the calcium/dha/ to become what we are.

carnivores should be smarter than herb specifically to be able to make the kill, as it obv takes more skill.

[Hannibal]

Lower in total fat

It's a myth.
I depends on the animal.
I got very fatty ram meat in the end of the summer and the ram was eating 100% grass, herbs and wild fruits several months beforehand.
In March this year I got sheep meat - fatty, but not so fatty as that ram, although the sheep was fed some grains in the winter.

[Hannibal]

Thats my speculation on the whole carni-omni deal

It's a good speculation
Even people with type I or type II diabetes should eat some amount of carbs. According to dr. Bernstein - 30 g a day.
Eating no carbs throughout the whole life is some cockamonie idea.

[miles]

i think humans are in a transition from vegetarians (many primates) to a carnivore. that is where we got all the calcium/dha/ to become what we are.

carnivores should be smarter than herb specifically to be able to make the kill, as it obv takes more skill.

Yeah.

"I also think humans are omnivores too. You don't need to know any science just LOOK at a human, do they look like an obligate carnivore? No way, look at our HANDS, the way our teeth and faces are, we look like omnivores.."

We don't need to have big sharp teeth, and huge locked jaws, because we don't hunt with our mouths. Those carnivores don't have big locked jaws and big sharp teeth for eating, it's for killing. We can kill with our hands and we can tear meat between our hands and our teeth.

It depends what is meant by an omnivore of course. We could be considered either omnivore or carnivore depending on which definition you use.

We look like apes because we came from apes. Carnivorous cats would also have come from herbivorous/omnivorous animals, and they would have looked somewhat like them, despite being carnivores. They would have likely retained an ability to live off of vegetables as a fall-back food at this time as well. Because humans are smart and have hands though, we haven't needed to adapt any further than we have. For now. So we remained omnivores, but with a frozen evolutionary path towards becoming carnivorous.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, that's true that it isn't compulsory to have strong jaws or teeth.
Much more important thing is our BRAIN, which needs about 20% of energy (partly - glucose)
And the second thing is the liver - our livers are not designed to convert huge amounts of proteins into carbs. Cats' - are.

[RawZi]

Not to say human can't live as carnivore at all...its like with dogs if you know what you're doing you can feed dogs omnivore diet and they will live on it, but they thrive on carnivore because they are carnivore.

It seems to me the people that do well as carnivore are the ones that were eating vegan OR had sugar problems before OR they have no choice (season, location etc). Correct me if I am wrong, but I know of no human that was on a successful omnivore diet that just decided to go carnivore just for the hell of it (I mean long term exclusive carnivore, not "this week I just ate meat cause I wanted to" type of deal).

    My dog used to get sick on commercial dog food as a puppy, tumors too.  We switched to vegetarian almost vegan, but fairly careful planning and pretty pure foods.  The dog did really well.  Later on we tried some decent cuts of meat, albeit cooked.  It just caused vomiting and diahrea, so back to the vegetaian diet, and there were no problems.  I'm not saying every dog can be vegetarian or vegan, but I wish I knew about raw food diet back then!  My dog loved cucumbers, spinach, canteloupe rind, parsley, grated carrots etc and raw steak!  I just didn't know raw steak could be a healthy food; I was brain washed by media!  I got a vegetarian dog diet recipe from Rodale.

[miles]

Yeah, that's true that it isn't compulsory to have strong jaws or teeth.
Much more important thing is our BRAIN, which needs about 20% of energy (partly - glucose)
And the second thing is the liver - our livers are not designed to convert huge amounts of proteins into carbs. Cats' - are.

Someone posted a link on here about the liver size relative to some other organs, and I remember seeing a flaw in the reasoning they based upon this, which was related to what you're saying. Do you remember the link, so perhaps I could recall the issue?

Predatory omnivores may be an o.k term

[yuli]

Predatory or not we're still omnivores, many omnivores are predatory too not just scavenging, they'll do anything to get food. The thing about our hands is, yes, we can use them to kill of course, but we can also use them to open up fruits and pick plants etc. So you could look at the hands thing from both sides.
I noticed most animals that have hands are usually omnivorous, check out rats how they use their little hands to eat (and I don't think we're even related to rats I may be wrong), it looks exactly as humans would do it (so cute!), if you give rats insects or meat they will use their hands to get at the good parts just like people would and if you give a rat a grape it will peel the skin and take out the seeds (a true carnivore wouldn't know what the hell to do with it lol).
Like many omnivores we have this nice ability to really "manipulate" our food, whether it be animal food or plant. Rats and raccoons live with us because they are very adaptive, just like we are, to remain highly adaptive I think its important to remain omnivorous, if you look at it from evolutionary reasoning standpoint.
Anyways it comes down to that a carnivore CANNOT live on a a vegan or even omnivorous diet (except the odd situations such as RawZi mentioned with her vegan dog and I have heard that happen to dogs before) where an omnivore can, I think there will always be exceptions like groups of people living on exclusively animal or almost all vegan diets, because this is the whole point of being an omnivore, you have ability to adapt to your situation better then carnivores and herbivores.
I am not sure if we are heading towards carnivory down our evolutionary path, since humans love (in general) planting, picking and eating plants, and I think they will love doing so for a long long time. Seeing a person picking berries from bushes or climbing up to pick an a apple from a tree looks just as natural as a human hunting or killing, even more because its easy to do, and we like things that are easy to do naturally.
The fact that we have these brains of ours, and hands, will keep us in omnivory I predict. And its a good thing! Imagine being trapped on an island with only fruits, a human will survive but a tiger would die off...then imagine you're trapped on a deserted land where no edible plants but there are rodents or lizards there, and bugs, a human may survive by killing these things but a deer would starve big time. I know these are extreme situations but thats the point! We are supposed to be able to handle these so our species will live on dammit! LOL - go humans! Yeah! 

[Iguana]

Very good post, Yuli, I couldn't agree more!

[goodsamaritan]

Animal food is easy to get at too:

Fishing is easy to do.
Gathering shells on the seashore is easy to do.
Setting up animal traps in the forest is easy to do, some forest people gave us a seminar.
Getting wild honey is easy too.
During war time my father in law remembers eating beetles, crickets and frogs in the mountains.

[the PresiDenT]

touche Yuli, i like ur thing about mice/hands. i agree we ARE omni, but i just think we are slowwwwlllllyyyyy becomeing carn evolutionary speaking.