Wisdom teeth?

[kurite]

Can someone explain to me why wisdom teeth can cause so many problems? How are they an evolutionary advantage and why do some people need them removed nowadays?

[ys]

wisdom teeth are not usually a problem, they become a problem when jaws are not developing correctly resulting in impacted bite or when they push on other teeth because there is not much room for them.

wisdom teeth have nothing to do with evolution, they function just like other molar teeth.
unfortunately many of us did not get fed with nutrient dense diet when growing up resulting in underdeveloped jaws.

[TylerDurden]

There is one theory that cooking has led directly to smaller jaws over the countless millenia:-

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7035-human-dental-chaos-linked-to-evolution-of-cooking.html

The idea is that cooking food makes it go softer, so that strong jaws are no longer evolutionarily necessary. Presumably the idea is that  the more highly processed a diet is, the smaller our jaws will become, so that our far-off descendents will eventually only be able to suck liquid food through straws.

Weston-Price groupies tend to claim that the size of the jaws only narrowed when highly-processed foods were introduced into the human diet. However, this is easily disproven  when one realises that narrowing of the jaw etc. started occurring far into  the palaeolithic, well before processed foods became a human staple.

However, the cooking leading to smaller jaws theory has plenty of critics. John Shea, the resident palaeolithic-era anthropologist at allexperts.com, has a different explanation:-"The reduction of teeth and jaws due to cooking is a popular idea, but not evolutionarily plausible. If you relax selective pressure for massive jaws--say by cooking food--you get greater variability, not reduced robusticity. Jaw reduction probably had something to do with changes in respiration, maybe speech." (In other words, they looked far more like people do today because that's just how they looked!)  "

[wodgina]

Less nutrient dense food plus allergies.

Kids who have blocked noses breath through their mouth so the tongue falls back into the mouth. The tongue is actually an orthodontic device and should push up against the upper palate when breathing and swallowing broadening the upper palate and allowing the lower mandible to decend to it's proper position.

[TylerDurden]

Less nutrient dense food plus allergies.

Kids who have blocked noses breath through their mouth so the tongue falls back into the mouth. The tongue is actually an orthodontic device and should push up against the upper palate when breathing and swallowing broadening the upper palate and allowing the lower mandible to decend to it's proper position.

  Well, I had an almost permanently blocked-up nose as a child, due to consuming lots of raw and pasteurised dairy which I was allergic to. Yet, I never had any problems with having to remove wisdom teeth nor did I need braces due to improper alignment of teeth.

[TylerDurden]

" Found in Eastern Africa, H. erectus has more modern arm and leg proportions, smaller jaws and a more projecting nose. Acheulean culture and the use of handaxes that appeared suddenly in the upper part of Bed II come from  H. erectus  or  H. ergaster  . During this period, the climate in East Africa was becoming drier and cooler, and the landscape less forested (Aiello and Imber, 2001).  "
http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_habilis.htm


So jaw reduction appeared much earlier before processed foods.

[wodgina]

" Found in Eastern Africa, H. erectus has more modern arm and leg proportions, smaller jaws and a more projecting nose. Acheulean culture and the use of handaxes that appeared suddenly in the upper part of Bed II come from  H. erectus  or  H. ergaster  . During this period, the climate in East Africa was becoming drier and cooler, and the landscape less forested (Aiello and Imber, 2001).  "
http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_habilis.htm


So jaw reduction appeared much earlier before processed foods.

We're discussing humans.

[TylerDurden]

Were discussing humans.

  The point is that if jaw-reduction appeared much, much earlier than when modern humans appeared, then the claims linking processed foods to smaller jaws look very unlikely indeed, as processed foods only appeared very recently, in historical terms.

[wodgina]

What is your stance on the subject?

[TylerDurden]

What is your stance on the subject?

  Well, I tend to favour John Shea's notion that jaw-reduction in hominids was due mainly  to other things like speech etc. There may be additional reasons such as cooking making the jaws slightly  smaller still. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people with very severe jaw-related defects(cleft-palate(?) etc.) had them due to deficiencies in diet(such as gained in the womb of a nutritionally deficient mother etc.), but I doubt that the issue of wisdom teeth/overcrowding is a modern phenomenon arising from deficient highly-processed diets.

[donrad]

Weston Price, DDS traveled the world in the 1930s studying primitive cultures not exposed to western diets. He took pictures of the inhabitants and the skulls in grave sites dating back thousands of years They all had nice wide pallets with no tooth crowding or cavities.

Once these groups were exposed to sugars, grains, and beans their cranial structure became warped. Among other things.

The conclusion he drew was that the expression of the genes was altered because of poor nutrition of the mother during critical stages of development of the fetus growing inside her. All the groups he studied instinctively gave the best food available to young women of child bearing age.

It is also possible that genes can be altered during formation of the eggs and sperm prior to conception. The Pottenger studies found that the deformities could not be reversed in subsequent generations.

Dr. Francis Pottenger came to the same conclusion after 20 years doing experiments with cat nutrition. Pasteurized milk, cooked meat, and grain fed  animal meat severely affected the cats' offsprings' bone structure and metabolism. By the third generation they could not even reproduce.

There is also evidence that breast feeding has some effect, both nutritionally and physically.

It was a hard pill to swallow when I read about this. It is hard for most people to accept.

I spent thousands of dollars on dentists and orthodontists, and had sinus problems because of what my mother ate while she carried me.  My own mother. She was and is still unaware.

I have a son who is engaged to be married to a vegetarian. If they have children there will be problems.

The difference between diet and nutrition is that diet is what you are currently eating. Nutrition encompasses what nourishment your received since conception. Possibly even pre-conception.

[kurite]

Time for parents of raw paleo children to chime in.

[miles]

The Pottenger studies found that the deformities could not be reversed in subsequent generations.

Dr. Francis Pottenger came to the same conclusion after 20 years doing experiments with cat nutrition. Pasteurized milk, cooked meat, and grain fed  animal meat severely affected the cats' offsprings' bone structure and metabolism. By the third generation they could not even reproduce.

I've not read the Pottenger stuff.

So, Cats eating raw grain-fed meat were less healthy than cats eating modern processed cat-foods..? This seems extremely important information..

Is it a lot of reading to get much out of the studies, or is there a more manageable summary?

[kurite]

I've not read the Pottinger stuff.

So, Cats eating raw grain-fed meat were less healthy than cats eating modern processed cat-foods..? This seems extremely important information..

Is it a lot of reading to get much out of the studies, or is there a more manageable summary?

No its not because it was grainfed meat. It was because cats require the amino acid taurine from their food. When you cook meat you essentially destroy most of the taurine.

[RawZi]

Time for parents of raw paleo children to chime in.

    I can't say it was because of diet, but my son had two wisdom teeth out.  He just had dental surgery Tuesday.  They wasn't enough room in his bottom jaw for the teeth.  I know it happens to a lot of people, but I still do not consider it normal.  Not for me at least.  I have those teeth and they are fine.  I can say my son has never eaten raw land meat.  He's always been vegetarian, unlike me, up till adolescence I ate cooked meat (steak, chicken drumsticks both not fried), and rawish fish (pickled, ceviche, cold smoked and live half shell).

[ys]

adequate consumption of fatty animal products (including whole dairy) even in cooked form will assure proper jaw development in children.  even consumption of grains does not impede in jaw development as long as there is enough fatty animal products.  of course it is better to limit grains but animal fat is the key ingredient for strong wide jaws.

i was not fed enough animal fat when growing up, i remember a lot of lean meat dishes, so i ended up with narrow jaws.  while it is possible to increase bone density later in life, in my opinion adults cannot increase their skull size.

[RawZi]

adequate consumption of fatty animal products (including whole dairy) even in cooked form will assure proper jaw development ... but animal fat is the key ingredient for strong wide jaws.

... possible to increase bone density later in life, in my opinion adults cannot increase their skull size.

    I ate lots of butter, cream cheese, american cheese, other cheeses (blue gouda etc) and sour cream (none raw I don't think) during much of that time too, and about 1 egg every day.  My son had reactions to egg and almost all dairy (fever, the runs, skin peeling, swelling), and we couldn't find raw dairy more than once till the most recent couple of years.

[TylerDurden]

The conclusion he drew was that the expression of the genes was altered because of poor nutrition of the mother during critical stages of development of the fetus growing inside her. All the groups he studied instinctively gave the best food available to young women of child bearing age.

It is also possible that genes can be altered during formation of the eggs and sperm prior to conception. The Pottenger studies found that the deformities could not be reversed in subsequent generations.

Dr. Francis Pottenger came to the same conclusion after 20 years doing experiments with cat nutrition. Pasteurized milk, cooked meat, and grain fed  animal meat severely affected the cats' offsprings' bone structure and metabolism. By the third generation they could not even reproduce.

Pottenger and Price could not have known anything about epigenetics as it is a very recent science, only being mentioned in the last few years or so.

[donrad]

I've not read the Pottenger stuff.

So, Cats eating raw grain-fed meat were less healthy than cats eating modern processed cat-foods..? This seems extremely important information..

Is it a lot of reading to get much out of the studies, or is there a more manageable summary?

"Pottenger's Cats" is a small book of about 100 pages. There is a chapter that shows x-rays of childrens' heads showing deformities resulting from "disturbed nutrition" of the mother during pregnancy. On the back of the book it says:

"The consumption of cooked meat or heat-processed milk resulted in physical deterioration, which increased with each generation. The animals became infested with vermin and parasites. Skin diseases and allergies increased in some cases by over 90%. Bones became soft and pliable.  The cats experienced adverse personality changes as well as hypothyroidism, and came to suffer from most of the degenerative diseases seen in humans. The third generation did not even live long enough to reproduce."

The study found that consuming raw meat and cooked milk was as bad as cooked meat and raw milk. Eating raw meat from confinement raised cows was almost as bad as cooked meat. Raw meat from cows eating fresh green grass was the best. The healthiest cats were the ones that hunted their own food outside the cages and ate the whole mouse.

In another experiment he planted seeds in the empty cages of  raw food fed cats and cooked food fed cats. The book shows pictures of the lush big healthy plants in the raw food cages and the sparse small plants in the cooked food cages. Amazing.

Dr. Price's book is long and tedious, however I found it fascinating and it changed my life so so much for the better. I'm almost 60 and feel better and my body & mind perform better than at 20. Well worth the read. It is in fact "extremely important information".



 

[yuli]

Can someone explain to me why wisdom teeth can cause so many problems? How are they an evolutionary advantage and why do some people need them removed nowadays?

I don't know but no one is laying a hand on my wisdom teeth...I went to a dentist like 5 years ago or so to correct a filling, and she is like "oooh you have nice teeth but you still have your wisdom teeth, we should pull them out"....I am like "why I am fine with them"....she is like "no they are going to crack one day" etc....I said "if you pull them out I pull out your head"....so she left them....well I still have my wisdom teeth and I love them.

This is why I hate dentists, she wanted to remove something that gave me no problem, idiot!

They are the sharpest teeth I have, like little razor fangs in the back of my mouth, I think of them as reverse canines, very useful for ripping meat up and chewing the tough pieces, I'd be sad if they were gone!
I have a pretty small face and jaw but they have never been a bother to me.
Perhaps wisdom teeth become a bother is people don't use them enough, eating too many mushy cooked foods and sugars! Or they have some mineral imbalances.

[miles]

Thank you very much for that reply donrad. This just seems so very important. How do you yourself eat?

[PaleoPhil]

Harvard professor of evolutionary biology Daniel Lieberman, known as a “hoof and mouth” man, provided the following quote on the subject for today's New York Times:
  

...wisdom teeth and malocclusions are very recent problems. They arise because we now process our food so much that we chew with little force. These interactions affect how our faces grow, which causes previously unknown dental problems. Hunter-gatherers — who live in ways similar to our ancestors — don’t have impacted wisdom teeth or cavities. There are many other conditions rooted in the mismatch — fallen arches, osteoporosis, cancer, myopia, diabetes and back trouble. So understanding evolutionary biology will definitely help my students when they become orthopedists, orthodontists and craniofacial surgeons.

Born, and Evolved, to Run
By CLAUDIA DREIFUS
A version of this interview appeared in print on August 23, 2011, on page D3 of the New York edition.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/science/23conversation.html?_r=1

[cherimoya_kid]

Harvard professor of evolutionary biology Daniel Lieberman, known as a “hoof and mouth” man, provided the following quote on the subject for today's New York Times:
  

Vitamin K-2 defiency, as well as, to a lesser extent, vitamin D and calcium deficiencies, are generally bigger causes of crooked teeth.  I wouldn't expect an evolutionary biologist to know this, though. It takes a nutrition expert, like me.

[wodgina]

Vitamin K-2 defiency, as well as, to a lesser extent, vitamin D and calcium deficiencies, are generally bigger causes of crooked teeth.  I wouldn't expect an evolutionary biologist to know this, though. It takes a nutrition expert, like me.

Scary isn't it?

That's why I take the advice of internet bloggers on where to put my money not mainstream financial analysts ( it's like they want you to be forever poor or religious elite who tell you to eat bread and live a life of virtue, it's noble to be poor while they dine one on steak and take the young beautiful women)

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, scary. I also go by what Internet bloggers advise and the telepathy signals that cherimoya_kid sends me, because he or she is an expert. The last signal was to club Dorothy like a baby seal. I did it and felt real good about it afterwards, so it must have been the right thing to do. I also received vibes to invest all my money in cans of Surströmming (Swedish skinkfish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnfEVqNdoA - warning: gross video). Not sure if those vibes were from Cherimoya or the other Internet dudes. Just the same, I expect it to pay off handsomely after the nuclear winter and the housecat population explosion. YMMV