Raw complex carb options

[PaleoPhil]

There has already been a definite tilt toward more acceptance of tubers than the days when Cordain prohibited them in The Paleo Diet, with more positive stuff written about tubers lately and with some (cooked) Paleos and near-Paleos even advocating tubers. Examples of people with (cooked) "Paleo" and near-Paleo approaches who have recently written semi-positive to downright glowing stuff about tubers:

Don Matesz - http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2009/08/primal-potatoes-part-1.html
Mark Sisson - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/paleo-potatoes/
Paul Jaminet - http://www.foodrenegade.com/for-the-love-of-tubers/
Rob Wolff - http://robbwolf.com/2008/01/15/sweet-potato-apple-compote-with-pork-loin/
Stephan Guyenet - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/09/potatoes-and-human-health-part-i.html
Caveman Forum - http://cavemanforum.com/diet-and-nutrition/starchy-tubers-paleo-after-all-4553
Loren Cordain's team -
> "We do not restrict dried fruit (raisins, dates, etc), potatoes, and encourage consumption of bananas, yams and sweet potatoes." http://www.thepaleodiet.com/faqs/.
> "Yes, sweet potatoes are allowed, specially in the post-workout period if you are an athlete. Sweet potatoes are different from potatoes in that they do not contain several harmful substances such as saponins and lectins, which may increase your intestinal permeability (if consumed regularly) and rev-up your immune system. But on the other hand, sweet potatoes are high glycemic index foods and should be restricted if you are struggling with overweight, at least until your body weight normalizes." - Maelán Fontes
> Dr. Cordain himself originally prohibited tubers in his first book, but later added them as an option for athletes, including in his The Paleo Diet for Athletes book.

(Note: I'm not saying that all these folks are pure "Paleo," whatever that means, so please no quibbles about semantics. I'm also not claiming that any of them are rawists.)

[ys]

i would like to include tubers in my diet but they give me lots of gas and bloating.  other carbs like fruits do not.  i guess i do not have enough enzymes to break down complex carbs efficiently.

[deletemyaccount]

In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. After being on a all meat and eggs diet for 6 months, I've had a tremendous decline in performance in the gym and have basically killed my adrenals. I've finally managed to overcome my carb phobia and about a three weeks ago I've started to add carbs back into my diet. I've tried plantains, bananas, and other fruits, carrots, parsnips as well as sweet potatoes. None of these suited me until I've finally found the super delicious squash. No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. Ever since I have added these to my diet, I have seen tremendous improvements in my health. Better sleep, exercise performance etc.

[PaleoPhil]

In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. ... No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. ...

All plants contain antinutrients (also called antioxidants or phytonutrients--the fact that plant pesticides can be both medicines and toxins confuses a lot of people), including squashes. If they didn't, their original forms would not have survived in the wild. Domesticated plants have reduced antinutrient levels, which is why they require pesticides to keep them from being eaten up by insects and other "pests".

Winter squashes are New World foods that were not consumed during most or all of the Stone Age and are generally cooked to make them edible. I have read that even indigenous Americans didn't eat winter squashes until after their toxin levels had been reduced through selection. Originally they were apparently dried and used as containers of water and foods.

Squash Antinutrients

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=62

Summer squash is among a small number of foods that contain measurable amounts of oxalates, naturally-occurring substances found in plants, animals, and human beings. When oxalates become too concentrated in body fluids, they can crystallize and cause health problems.


List of oxalate content of foods
http://wholisticpeds.com/uploads/List%20of%20oxalate%20content%20of%20foods%20alphabetical.pdf


International Food Safety Handbook: Science, International Regulation, and Control (Food Science and Technology) by Vanderheijden (Jul 16, 1999)

"Other Plant Toxins

In addition to the group of toxins briefly reviewed here, several other plant toxins have been considered by an expert committee on toxic plant components to constitute a risk to the consumer [25]. These include the coumarins, furocoumarins, saponins, vicine and convicine, isoflavones, terpenes, cycasine, glycyrrhizin, hydrazones, lupin alkaloids, methylxanthines, oxalates, and toxic amino acids.


Summer squash has two phytochemicals: coumarins and flavonoids [1]. http://food-contents.blogspot.com/2009/05/squash-nutrients.html


Coumarin Toxicity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumarin#Toxicity_and_use_in_foods.2C_beverages.2C_tobacco.2C_and_cosmetics
"Coumarin is moderately toxic to the liver and kidneys, with an LD50 of 275 mg/kg—low compared to related compounds. Although only somewhat dangerous to humans, coumarin is a potent rodenticide: rats and other rodents largely metabolize it to 3,4-coumarin epoxide, a toxic compound that can cause internal hemorrhage and death. Humans largely metabolize it to 7-hydroxycoumarin, a compound of lower toxicity."

[Nation]

It's nice to have outside opinions of what is 'raw paleo' so that a forum doesn't become a circle jerk.

[Josh]

I..I eat enough the previous day. It suffices for 1,5-hour training without any problems. ..I eat enough carbs so that muscle glycogen would not be competely depleted.
I'm also fat adapted very well.

That's cool. I'm not knocking anyone's training. I just think sometimes there's a tendency on here for a bit handwaving about what happens with raw paleo. Sure it can be different from other diets...but you need enough usable calories for what you do, you need time to adapt to using fat, you need enough protein to rebuild muscle...these things can't be magicked away.

[Iguana]

(...) you need enough usable calories for what you do, you need time to adapt to using fat, you need enough protein to rebuild muscle...these things can't be magicked away.

Why would we need time to adapt to using fat? Aren't we adapted to using fat from birth? Can't we get calories from carbohydrates also? Is there any reason why we wouldn't eat enough proteins for our muscles?

Cheers
Francois

[deletemyaccount]

All plants contain antinutrients (also called antioxidants or phytonutrients--the fact that plant pesticides can be both medicines and toxins confuses a lot of people), including squashes. If they didn't, their original forms would not have survived in the wild. Domesticated plants have reduced antinutrient levels, which is why they require pesticides to keep them from being eaten up by insects and other "pests".

Winter squashes are New World foods that were not consumed during most or all of the Stone Age and are generally cooked to make them edible. I have read that even indigenous Americans didn't eat winter squashes until after their toxin levels had been reduced through selection. Originally they were apparently dried and used as containers of water and foods.

Maybe you read too much...instead of reading how harmful everything is you should experiment and see what works for your body. I'm 100% raw and I find the squash to be a great source of carbs if a person has decides to have some on raw diet. That doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone but it suits me better than fruit and tubers.

[miles]

What does raw squash taste like? I didn't know it could be eaten raw.. Which squashes can/do you eat?

[Josh]

Why would we need time to adapt to using fat? Aren't we adapted to using fat from birth?  Is there any reason why we wouldn't eat enough proteins for our muscles?

Well most people seem to need an adaption period to using fat for energy, although one person on here seems not to have. Maybe we would have been ok with it from birth, but most of us have eaten a carb rich diet so seem to have lost the adaption. If it has an energy cost to maintain mitochondria, I guess the body will just let them go if we're eating loads of carb.

Can't we get calories from carbohydrates also?

Yes, but you'd have to eat a lot of fruit to supply energy. IMO that wouldn't be good for you, it's better to use fat. You would probably experience big carb crashes eating that much.

Is there any reason why we wouldn't eat enough proteins for our muscles?

Possibly. If I had just followed my appetite when starting, I would have stopped at about half the food my body needed to exercise.

I found when starting out, it was very easy to feel full, undereat and then hit starvation mode not wanting food and being too weak to do anything.

These are some of the problems I have with the idea of following instincts. We've experienced different tastes and different types of food since birth so while it's worth listening to instincts they can lead you astray.

[deletemyaccount]

What does raw squash taste like? I didn't know it could be eaten raw.. Which squashes can/do you eat?

It tastes delicious. I've tried all of them, but the best ones nutrient wise and the palatable is the Butternut and Acorn squash. I was searching for a starch source that I wouldn't have to cook and that is provides the most cost-benefit ratio. I just peel them throw them in the chopper and mix with my raw meat/fish or eggs meals. Delicious and so easy to digest! The raw butternut squash is kind of sweet and its taste is similar to a cooked sweet potato. The acorn squash is not very sweet and tastes kind of like a cooked potato, well maybe :-) The spaghetti squash which I don't eat that much tastes just like, surprise, spaghetti :-)

I'm really glad that I found an easily digestible and tasty starch that I don't have to cook. Delicious, raw, low in fructose, combines well with everything, facilitates corpse like sleep, provides energy for heavy workouts in the gym as well as full of vitamins and minerals. I just can't believe that some people always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates. You can find a con against every single carb source out there, whether it raw or cooked. However, weighing the pros and cons, raw squash is a very good choice. Try it and see for yourself or find something better that works for you.

[Josh]

Sounds interesting. A raw squash may be quite paleo...like citron melon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citron_melon

my money's still on fat long term though.

[deletemyaccount]

Sounds interesting. A raw squash may be quite paleo...like citron melon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citron_melon

my money's still on fat long term though.

I assume fat could work for some people; unfortunately, I'm not of them. Eating the fattiest cuts of meat and fish for six months and zero carbs nearly killed me due to insomnia which doesn't help when you're weight lifting and going to college. As soon as I've added back the carbs, insomnia is gone. The elevated catecholamines when eating only fat/protein made me feel really energetic and sharp, but I could not take the insomnia anymore. The Butternut squash solved everything :-)
Although I don't agree with his dietary advice, Matt Stone from http://www.180degreehealth.blogspot.com/ has a lot of great information on his blog about hormones and how low carb/no carb high fat diets contribute to adrenal exhaustion in the long term.

[KD]

In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. After being on a all meat and eggs diet for 6 months, I've had a tremendous decline in performance in the gym and have basically killed my adrenals. I've finally managed to overcome my carb phobia and about a three weeks ago I've started to add carbs back into my diet. I've tried plantains, bananas, and other fruits, carrots, parsnips as well as sweet potatoes. None of these suited me until I've finally found the super delicious squash. No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. Ever since I have added these to my diet, I have seen tremendous improvements in my health. Better sleep, exercise performance etc.

I'm glad you got something working. to me, finding compatible plant foods with little consequences is always exciting. Other than the insomnia and reading Matt Stone's site, do you have any diagnostics or other tests that show shot adrenals? I'm willing to think despite what our natural diet is, that LC or ZC can cause such burn out in contemporary circumstances, but it seems like the cures are often rather expedient for such dire damage attributed to LC. what would you estimate are acceptable levels of carbs for preventing such issues? What do you mean by eating just fatty meat and fish? minimal marrow, suet, back-type fats or dairy fat?

[miles]

Celeriac:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2394/2

Just had this raw today, nice and tasty, tasted like raw mushrooms in some ways. 9g starch/100g it would seem.

I also tried some of a butternut squash I had in my house, raw, I didn't like it; and tried some raw sweet potato, didn't like that either.

[PaleoPhil]

It's nice to have outside opinions of what is 'raw paleo' so that a forum doesn't become a circle jerk.

Yes, I agree, and just because squashes weren't eaten during most or all of the Stone Age and contain antinutrients and may not be truly "Paleo" (about which there is disagreement on what it means) doesn't necessarily mean that no one should ever eat them nowadays. Also, while a variety of opinions is good, I try to be respectful of the fact that this is a raw Paleo forum, not an eat-anything-diet forum.

Maybe you read too much...instead of reading how harmful everything is you should experiment and see what works for your body.

Are you assuming I don't experiment and see what works for me? Have you read my signature or my journal? If not, please do that before judging me.

I can share my story re: squashes and my recent experiments with roots and tubers, if you're interested. I think you'll find that it's not the story of someone who doesn't experiment to see what works for his body.

I congratulate you on your success, though it doesn't necessarily apply equally well to everyone else. I welcome you sharing your experiences, but when you move beyond that into making claims like squashes not containing antinutrients, don't be surprised if I or someone else points out the facts, which should also be acceptable in a relatively open and democratic forum.

I'm 100% raw and I find the squash to be a great source of carbs if a person has decides to have some on raw diet. That doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone but it suits me better than fruit and tubers.

I commend you for that more careful wording. If you had written that to begin with there would have been no disagreement.


@Miles, thanks for the tip re: celeriac. I think I saw it in the market and was curious about it, but then forgot about it.

[deletemyaccount]

I'm glad you got something working. to me, finding compatible plant foods with little consequences is always exciting. Other than the insomnia and reading Matt Stone's site, do you have any diagnostics or other tests that show shot adrenals? I'm willing to think despite what our natural diet is, that LC or ZC can cause such burn out in contemporary circumstances, but it seems like the cures are often rather expedient for such dire damage attributed to LC. what would you estimate are acceptable levels of carbs for preventing such issues? What do you mean by eating just fatty meat and fish? minimal marrow, suet, back-type fats or dairy fat?

80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies, insomnia, racing mind, boundless energy, poor recovery from weight training sessions, sudden increase of energy in the evening etc. I can't deny how good it feels to be zero carb, I would probably continue to stay do it since i love meat, organs, fatty fish, shellfish. However, my thyroid is suffering, testosterone nearly non-existent, but the thing that made me realize that I'm really going to need a few carbs was the insomnia.

Acceptable level of carbs? Depends on the individual and how active they are. For me, 1 Acorn squash and 1 Butternut squash solved my insomnia instantly and I could finally lift heavier weights in the gym just like before. Carb wise, I would say that's equivalent to about 3 sweet potatoes a day which would be about 100 carbs at the most. I'm not a big fan of too many carbohydrates and i would not eat cooked starch because I prefer to eat everything raw.

By fatty meat I meant to say that I my diet was structured around grass-fed lamb chops, wild-caught salmon/mackerel and all other fish, oysters/clams, fattiest cuts of grass fed beef such as porterhouse steaks, liver, organic chicken, eggs, and sometimes grass fed raw butter. I've tried eating high fat/high protein high fat/moderate protein high fat/low protein and after 2 years I've decided, my body decided that it just isn't going to work ;-)

I'm just saying what has happened to me over the past two years since going on the low carb/zero carb/all carnivore diet. Tried eating more fat, less protein and didn't work. Tried eating 5 pounds of meat/fish to get enough calories in and that did not work either. Trust me, I have though about every single possible correction to make to my diet. More organs, more fat, less protein, and considered adding carbs to be the last option. I'm glad that I've finally managed to overcome the stupid idea that carbohydrates are "bad". Being a pre-medicine student and a vast proponent of a raw food "paleo" diet, I should have known better sooner before I've ruined my adrenal glands.

[KD]

thanks

80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies

yeah I wasn't criticizing, I was more curious how you are actually testing for these things. I get my thyroid checked but it from a conventional doc, and I hear those are not very accurate. I've been experimenting around the same time, with around 3 years of raw veg before that. I experienced alot of really negative symptoms you describe when I first attempted a 100% raw primal type diet and had little access to animal fats and butter etc..was doing mainly fish which is why I asked. I have alot of skepticism with all this stuff. I came into VLC again this time around with major adrenal type symptoms and sleep, and while i'm sure it is not completely resolved, I still seem to be on the upside of the hill at the very least. :/

My problem with Stone is he has so little personal experience that he's equally bad to all the fruitarian upstart gurus in not really knowing the end results. I mean I have other stoo but that suffices. I was really strutting my 100 VLC temp a few months back but after a few weird responses from some wintery handshakes I took my temp this week and it was down in the 97s FWIW. Ive been trying (cooked) starches myself here and there so yeah, i'm genuinely interested in this stuff and interested in long term health and yeah getting the most bang for my buck in workouts and other 'superficial' things. As I've said on this forum before i've had pretty reverse effects in regards to positives and negatives commonly related to VLC diets, so its all interesting to me how this shit works out or not for people. I definitely do not think 'carbohydrates' are bad. I do tend to think there is a reason that traditional peoples choose starch over fruits (of which most modern varieties may cause problems in excess), and it ain't taste or 'addictions'.

do you read Lyle McDonalds stuff? there must be a more reliable source other than 180.

[yuli]

I'm really glad that I found an easily digestible and tasty starch that I don't have to cook. Delicious, raw, low in fructose, combines well with everything, facilitates corpse like sleep, provides energy for heavy workouts in the gym as well as full of vitamins and minerals. I just can't believe that some people always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates....

Thats cool stas, you gave me an idea to try some raw squashes! Maybe with that I will eat less cooked tubers 
People will try to find something bad about ANY food have you noticed that, "raw meat is bad", "cooked meat is bad", "carbs are bad", "fats are bad", its all bad bad bad. And then we wonder why we torture ourselves on a diet thats not working LOL

So they are not so ancient a plant, they are NEW plant, ohhh nooooo, ruuuuun, freak plant!  WHO....THE FUCK....CARES....IF....IT.....WORKS....EAT....IT!!!!!!!
You know its ok to to make new plants as long as you try and grow them organically, frikkin apples and oranges are more inbred at least squashes are a new invention not some overbred cake-fruit heh heh

Celeriac:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2394/2

Just had this raw today, nice and tasty, tasted like raw mushrooms in some ways. 9g starch/100g it would seem.

I also tried some of a butternut squash I had in my house, raw, I didn't like it; and tried some raw sweet potato, didn't like that either.

Miles I was just eating celeriac yesterday, they are very very good I agree. If you like those then you'll probably a fan of most roots like me, so try the black radish too its awesome I mix it with the celeriac sometimes.

[PaleoPhil]

Yuli, are any of those comments in response to anything I wrote? If so, please direct them to me and I'll respond. Thanks.

[yuli]

Yuli, are any of those comments supposed to be in response to anything I wrote? If so, please direct them to me and I'll respond. Thanks.

Wha??? I just wanted to say that its a good idea to try raw squashes, I kinda forgot they exist so stas with his squash post reminded me they do... and I love to eat lots of DIFFERENT foods so any new food or stuff I forgot about excites me to try it.
I also thought it's silly to not eat them just because they are a relatively new plant, as I don't really think thats a big concern unless it gives you a bad effect or something, if squashes are bad cause of that then so are dogs, cats, cows, apples, mandarins, most fruits we eat etc....

...miles mentioned celeriac and coincidentally I love celeriac too...

How were these supposed to be directed at you please explain? I thought I was just commenting only on what stas and miles said...and the fact that ANYONE has any concern that a squash is not paleo is ( only IMO ) kinda silly (  )

[Stancel]

What about malanga? I haven't tried it but I read it has a nutty flavor although I'm not sure if they were talking about it cooked or raw. I saw it at the store recently so I might try it.

[RawZi]

What about malanga? I haven't tried it but I read it has a nutty flavor although I'm not sure if they were talking about it cooked or raw.

    I've eaten, prepared and served fresh malanga plenty of times.  I haven't tried it raw.  When I ate it regularly I enjoyed wonderful health.  I had a little weakness in one or two of my joints, but that may have been from lack of protein or something else.  The only complaint I got from someone when I served it, was that they got constipated.  It didn't seem to do that to me.  I haven't eaten it in years now.  

    I think malanga comes from an African word.  In Hispanic countries there's lila and blanca (purple malanga and white ones).  Here's the wikipedia on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthosoma Googling I see vegetables that are not malanga, but have other names in the same places being mislabeled as malanga.  There are a huge variety of starchy roots I've eaten/prepared/served.

[deletemyaccount]

thanks

yeah I wasn't criticizing, I was more curious how you are actually testing for these things. I get my thyroid checked but it from a conventional doc, and I hear those are not very accurate. I've been experimenting around the same time, with around 3 years of raw veg before that. I experienced alot of really negative symptoms you describe when I first attempted a 100% raw primal type diet and had little access to animal fats and butter etc..was doing mainly fish which is why I asked. I have alot of skepticism with all this stuff. I came into VLC again this time around with major adrenal type symptoms and sleep, and while i'm sure it is not completely resolved, I still seem to be on the upside of the hill at the very least. :/

My problem with Stone is he has so little personal experience that he's equally bad to all the fruitarian upstart gurus in not really knowing the end results. I mean I have other stoo but that suffices. I was really strutting my 100 VLC temp a few months back but after a few weird responses from some wintery handshakes I took my temp this week and it was down in the 97s FWIW. Ive been trying (cooked) starches myself here and there so yeah, i'm genuinely interested in this stuff and interested in long term health and yeah getting the most bang for my buck in workouts and other 'superficial' things. As I've said on this forum before i've had pretty reverse effects in regards to positives and negatives commonly related to VLC diets, so its all interesting to me how this shit works out or not for people. I definitely do not think 'carbohydrates' are bad. I do tend to think there is a reason that traditional peoples choose starch over fruits (of which most modern varieties may cause problems in excess), and it ain't taste or 'addictions'.

do you read Lyle McDonalds stuff? there must be a more reliable source other than 180.

I know that you weren't criticizing, I'm just sick of people who always try to find something wrong with foods that I think are harmless unless they're suffering from orthorexia or are a serious psychological problem that causes them to demonize foods such as squash, carrots and other completely perfect carbohydrates sources. I read everything from Vonderplanitz, Lyle McDonald, and all fo the gurus out there. From my experience the best diet is a raw protein/fat diet with the addition of carbs tailored towards the specific individual. I know that I will never eat cooked foods unless I have no other choice and my life depends on it. However to demonize carbohydrates from foods such as squashes, root vegetables is insane. Matt Stone has a lot of good information on his blog, but his dietary advice is absolutely ridiculous. Cooked foods and the diet that he currently recommends is not healthy at all and I just ignore that part. But he is right about a lot of things such as low carb causing problems and other things. I was an elite ice hockey player and a boxer and I love being active, and I made a big mistake thinking that I was eating the prefect diet of our ancestors full of meat and fat while thinking that carbs are "bad" and that they're not essential. They may not be essential in an anatomy/physiology book, but as I've come to find out, they are essential for some individuals in order to stay healthy.

[PaleoPhil]

How were these supposed to be directed at you please explain?

...and the fact that ANYONE has any concern that a squash is not paleo is ( only IMO ) kinda silly (   )

If they're not related at all to anything I wrote, that's fine. As for how these might be related to something I wrote, did you notice that I wrote that squashes may not be truly "Paleo" (depending on one's definition of the term--and I don't consider that a make-or-break factor in determining what to eat, just one thing among many to consider) and that I shared the fact that they do contain antinutrients (though I mentioned that those can also be considered antioxidants or phytonutrients and I didn't say that no one shouldn't eat them just because of either of these points)? The fact that winter squashes may not be considered Paleo by some definitions is not the main reason I don't eat them any more. I was just wondering if perhaps you or Stas86 got that misimpression (and if anyone did, the explanations in my signature may help clear up that misunderstanding)?

Also, this is a raw Paleo forum, so presumably none of us would be here if the question of whether or not any food is "Paleo" in the metabolic/biological sense were completely silly, right? You're comment seems rather puzzling in the context of a raw Paleo forum. Perhaps you could explain it and what about the RPD and this forum attracted you?

Also, in the text you quoted it says this...

I just can't believe that some people always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates.

Since you quoted that, perhaps you (or Stas86) can enlighten me as to who these "some people" are who "always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates"? I love plant carbs and I'm currently experimenting with them, hoping to find some I can handle beyond small amounts of berries and other occasional fruits, so I know that can't be me, and I haven't noticed anyone else doing that here, so the comment raises the question of who it's supposed to be describing. The only folks I've ever noticed doing that were some at the ZIOH forum, a former member here who got banned and Katelyn, another member here who hasn't been active here in a while. It would be helpful if these impersonal pronouns could be clarified into specific people, so we know who is being discussed. When they come shortly after posts that discuss related topics, they may naturally give the impression that they might somehow be related to the earlier posts.

Plus you wrote:

People will try to find something bad about ANY food have you noticed that,....

I haven't noticed anyone here doing that lately. Did you notice anyone here doing that or are you referring to someone outside the forum?

So it wasn't exactly clear whether your comments were in any way related to anything I wrote or not or who these "some people" and "people" are. I was hoping you'd help clarify this. If none of your comments relate to anything I wrote, that's fine and if some do, that's also fine. I don't take it personally and we can take it from there. I just didn't want to make the mistake of assuming that any of them are related if they're not, that's all. I'm not angry or trying to criticize or tell you what to do or anything like that, just seeking to understand and trying to do so in as polite and constructive a manner as possible. I don't always succeed at that, but I try.