Raw complex carb options

[yuli]

PaleoPhil you are over-thinking or over-analyzing my comment I think, it was just a genuine opinion from I was in no way describing you of describing the people of the forum as a whole.
I never thought about why you don't eat squashes, obviously though cause they don't work for you which is fine! I know your moto is you are not a paleo re-en-actor so obviously I don't think you have the hangup of squashes not being paleo.

Also, this is a raw Paleo forum, so presumably none of us would be here if the question of whether or not any food is "Paleo" in the metabolic/biological sense were completely silly, right? You're comment seems rather puzzling in the context of a raw Paleo forum. Perhaps you could explain it and what about the RPD and this forum attracted you?

Do I even have to?...I already said many times before, what attracts me to the RPD forum is that I LOVE RAW MEAT, simple as that. I also love to eat a high amount of raw and enjoy many many raw plant foods and have had many benefits from this....since eating raw plant foods and raw meat happens to be the raw paleo diet thats why I am on this forum...not because its rawpaleo, because people here talk about eating raw meat, raw animal parts, and raw plants, which are all very important to me and I am interested in learning about.

Yes I happen find its silly (I find it silly, ME, is that ok to think that please?) to avoid eating something just because something is not considered paleo, even though its good anyways, thats just my opinion, no one has to agree. I like wild food and am all in favor of protecting our sources of wild food, or growing our own (but then by definition its no longer wild) and the idea of it but I also enjoy some of our farmed creations as well, depends which ones though, is that ok too?

To me someone who can boast about being truly paleo should be surviving in the wild without buying ANYTHING from the store or from a farm, to me if you're not doing that you shouldn't be complaining about something as harmless and healthy as squash not being paleo, again only IMO!

Plus you wrote:.......I haven't noticed anyone here doing that lately. Did you notice anyone here doing that or are you referring to someone outside the forum?
So it wasn't exactly clear whether your comments were in any way related to anything I wrote or not or who these "some people" and "people" are. I was hoping you'd help clarify this. If none of your comments relate to anything I wrote, that's fine and if some do, that's also fine. I don't take it personally and we can take it from there. I just didn't want to make the mistake of assuming that any of them are related if they're not, that's all. I'm not angry or trying to criticize or tell you what to do or anything like that, just seeking to understand and trying to do so in as polite and constructive a manner as possible. I don't always succeed at that, but I try.

I said "people"....not "people on this forum", not "people who eat RPD"....I just notice a good amount of diet gurus, diet connoisseur if you will or people following a specific have these hard facts, like carbs are bad, or ALL modern foods are evil, or meat is bad etc etc....

You haven't noticed this yourself? I bet you have...so relax, I was making an observation, a valid one, not attacking you or raw paleo dieters at all, besides raw paleo diet can be separated into many different branches.

It seems like you think my post somehow was directed negatively at you and rawpaleo people, and I don't know why...my post was just from my opinion on eating.

[miles]

Hey Phil could you expand please on how Squashes(or specific varieties?) aren't paleo? Cheers.

[yuli]

Also I wanted to add that paleo aspect interests me too, but that interests me only in the terms of being completely paleo, for example going for months to live in the wild and eat from the land....now thats amazing and interesting. Living as a tribe in the wild too, thats interesting. In those regards I am interested in also.
But someone sitting on their laptop looking at numbers and ratios and saying they are paleo because they eat this and don't eat that and don't shave their balls is just funny really to me. Because I could be non-paleo in eating and paleo in other things, for example I can eat a burrito or pizza every day but if I spend everyday running out in the sun and swimming in lakes then climbing up rocks....who's more paleo then? The guy eating what he thinks is genuine raw paleo diet and sitting on laptop reading and doing research or driving, or the guy running around outside in the forest all day then dropping in for a pizza in the evening? As you can see neither is paleo. Its just the way I view real paleo-ness I guess, as a whole.
But then again anyone is welcome to think of themselves as paleo, if that makes you feel good then great. I like to pretend I posses magic powers or that I am a secret agent on a mission to make my days exciting sometimes, whatever rocks your boat.

[miles]

I like to pretend I posses magic powers or that I am a secret agent on a mission to make my days exciting sometimes, whatever rocks your boat.

Have you seen 'The Beach'?

[yuli]

Have you seen 'The Beach'?

No I haven't...is it good? ...I usually watch sci-fi films (fantasy sometimes) or cartoons.

[Stancel]

I tried raw summer squash, I didn't like the taste.

I have no problem with carbs though, I lean toward the Wai diet, which is very carbolicious.

[miles]

No I haven't...is it good? ...I usually watch sci-fi films (fantasy sometimes) or cartoons.

Been a while since I watched it, but I remember it being good. It's about an island with a hidden beach in the middle where some people live off of the land. At some point the main character gets high and thinks he's in a video game.

[RawZi]

could you expand please on how Squashes(or specific varieties?) aren't paleo?

    They may not be paleo nor taste good nor have nice texture, but I think they look prehistoric.

    The cashier where I shop is from Africa.  She kept milk raw cow milk in gourds and let the milk ferment all the time, no store, no fridge.

Been a while since I watched it, but I remember it being good. It's about an island with a hidden beach in the middle where some people live off of the land.

    Seen it a couple of times.

[Iguana]

Yes, but you'd have to eat a lot of fruit to supply energy. IMO that wouldn't be good for you, it's better to use fat. You would probably experience big carb crashes eating that much.

There are plenty carb containing good foods that are not fruits: chestnuts, carob, sugar cane, honey, pollen, sweet patatoes, yakon, squash, green peas, beans, carrots, broccoli…well, most vegetables and nuts.

If I had just followed my appetite when starting, I would have stopped at about half the food my body needed to exercise.

How do you know the amount of food you body needs for exercise? Perhaps, also your body needs to rest for a while when switching to raw nutrition.

I found when starting out, it was very easy to feel full, undereat and then hit starvation mode not wanting food and being too weak to do anything.

That’s very weird because the most common problem is that we tend to eat too much and go into bulimia when under instinctive nutrition in an artificial environment with a broad choice of different food available on the table.

These are some of the problems I have with the idea of following instincts. We've experienced different tastes and different types of food since birth so while it's worth listening to instincts they can lead you astray.

Sure, they definitely lead you astray with cooked, mixed, procesed Neolithic and modern food. Not with unprocessed and unmixed Paleolithic wild stuff: this has been verified a million times during 45 years by systematic practical experiments on thousands of animals and men by GCB and various collaborators.

[Iguana]

I just peel them throw them in the chopper and mix with my raw meat/fish or eggs meals. Delicious and so easy to digest!

Ah, I understand why you find it so delicious! I eat a bit of squash sometimes, but unmixed and unprocessed it’s far form being the best food I ever ate!  By the way, celeriac is a common food in Europe, I’ve always eaten some once in a way.  

And here comes the best of this thread, really worth to be highlighted:

I'm just saying what has happened to me over the past two years since going on the low carb/zero carb/all carnivore diet. Tried eating more fat, less protein and didn't work. Tried eating 5 pounds of meat/fish to get enough calories in and that did not work either. Trust me, I have though about every single possible correction to make to my diet. More organs, more fat, less protein, and considered adding carbs to be the last option. I'm glad that I've finally managed to overcome the stupid idea that carbohydrates are "bad". Being a pre-medicine student and a vast proponent of a raw food "paleo" diet, I should have known better sooner before I've ruined my adrenal glands.

But he is right about a lot of things such as low carb causing problems and other things. I was an elite ice hockey player and a boxer and I love being active, and I made a big mistake thinking that I was eating the prefect diet of our ancestors full of meat and fat while thinking that carbs are "bad" and that they're not essential. They may not be essential in an anatomy/physiology book, but as I've come to find out, they are essential for some individuals in order to stay healthy.

But someone sitting on their laptop looking at numbers and ratios and saying they are paleo because they eat this and don't eat that and don't shave their balls is just funny really to me.

Thanks for saying that loud and clear!
Cheers
Francois

[Busgrw]

Hi,

A big thank you to everyone for getting involved in this thread as I never knew it would generate so much thought and i've taken a lot out of it to help me on my diet.

One very helpful post for me was from stas86 when he talked about his knowing that he needed some carbs back in when he got bad insomnia, racing mind, poor recovery etc as this is exactly what happens to me. I've tried zero carb a number of times as I strongly believe in it but it just woiuldn't work for me either and i'm now at the stage where I need my deep sleep back and my body to relax more whilst I train for my event. So, looks like i'm going to be trying out butternut squash as per stas' approach, celeriac as per Francois' post and getting sufficient carbs in from other raw veg options (too much fruit gives me a racing mind also) and sweet potatoes. For now, i'm done with measuring ratios and levels of carbs etc and instead will just be eating what I want to eat as long as its raw and should be good for me. As Francois mentioned in another post, I dont think our ancestors thought too much about quantities of fat, protein & carbs so think i'll take their approach for a bit...... I feel less stressed just writing that ha ha 

80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies, insomnia, racing mind, boundless energy, poor recovery from weight training sessions, sudden increase of energy in the evening etc. I can't deny how good it feels to be zero carb, I would probably continue to stay do it since i love meat, organs, fatty fish, shellfish. However, my thyroid is suffering, testosterone nearly non-existent, but the thing that made me realize that I'm really going to need a few carbs was the insomnia.

Acceptable level of carbs? Depends on the individual and how active they are. For me, 1 Acorn squash and 1 Butternut squash solved my insomnia instantly and I could finally lift heavier weights in the gym just like before. Carb wise, I would say that's equivalent to about 3 sweet potatoes a day which would be about 100 carbs at the most. I'm not a big fan of too many carbohydrates and i would not eat cooked starch because I prefer to eat everything raw.

By fatty meat I meant to say that I my diet was structured around grass-fed lamb chops, wild-caught salmon/mackerel and all other fish, oysters/clams, fattiest cuts of grass fed beef such as porterhouse steaks, liver, organic chicken, eggs, and sometimes grass fed raw butter. I've tried eating high fat/high protein high fat/moderate protein high fat/low protein and after 2 years I've decided, my body decided that it just isn't going to work ;-)

I'm just saying what has happened to me over the past two years since going on the low carb/zero carb/all carnivore diet. Tried eating more fat, less protein and didn't work. Tried eating 5 pounds of meat/fish to get enough calories in and that did not work either. Trust me, I have though about every single possible correction to make to my diet. More organs, more fat, less protein, and considered adding carbs to be the last option. I'm glad that I've finally managed to overcome the stupid idea that carbohydrates are "bad". Being a pre-medicine student and a vast proponent of a raw food "paleo" diet, I should have known better sooner before I've ruined my adrenal glands.

Another quote I liked and feel deserved a quote was from Yuli.

So they are not so ancient a plant, they are NEW plant, ohhh nooooo, ruuuuun, freak plant!  WHO....THE FUCK....CARES....IF....IT.....WORKS....EAT....IT!!!!!!!

I have to agree here as just because something was not available (as far as we know) back in paleo times doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for us and I know that once I try the squash, if it works for me and makes me feel good,strong and healthy (whilst "facilitating corpse like sleep"  ) along with the raw meat, fat and organs i'll be eating then i'll keep it on the menu.

Thanks again. 

[deletemyaccount]

Hi,

A big thank you to everyone for getting involved in this thread as I never knew it would generate so much thought and i've taken a lot out of it to help me on my diet.

One very helpful post for me was from stas86 when he talked about his knowing that he needed some carbs back in when he got bad insomnia, racing mind, poor recovery etc as this is exactly what happens to me. I've tried zero carb a number of times as I strongly believe in it but it just woiuldn't work for me either and i'm now at the stage where I need my deep sleep back and my body to relax more whilst I train for my event. So, looks like i'm going to be trying out butternut squash as per stas' approach, celeriac as per Francois' post and getting sufficient carbs in from other raw veg options (too much fruit gives me a racing mind also) and sweet potatoes. For now, i'm done with measuring ratios and levels of carbs etc and instead will just be eating what I want to eat as long as its raw and should be good for me. As Francois mentioned in another post, I dont think our ancestors thought too much about quantities of fat, protein & carbs so think i'll take their approach for a bit...... I feel less stressed just writing that ha ha 

I'm glad that I could help out because its pretty obvious that I'm not the only who has had these problems. It's a relief for me as well to know that I'm not the only one who experiences these issues when completely cutting out carbs. The funny thing is that I don't crave the carbohydrates at all, but the insomnia and the other issues are just unbearable. Quality of life is more important than trying to follow some kind of strict belief which doesn't always suit every single individual. Come on people, we're already eating as healthy as we can by eating good quality raw animal foods and I don't think that a few carbs from root veggies or fruits have ever killed anyone. I hope that didn't sound too biased towards eating the squashes but I after trying all of the other root vegetables, I found them to suit me the best. Carrots, parsnips, and plantains are also delicious but not as nutritious as the squash. Fruits, other than plantains don't seem to work as well when it comes to carbs for me, perhaps because of the fructose which is metabolized differently. However, stressing about these silly trivial things is going to do far more harm than eating any kind of carbohydrates.

Another quote I liked and feel deserved a quote was from Yuli.

I have to agree here as just because something was not available (as far as we know) back in paleo times doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for us and I know that once I try the squash, if it works for me and makes me feel good,strong and healthy (whilst "facilitating corpse like sleep"  ) along with the raw meat, fat and organs i'll be eating then i'll keep it on the menu.

Sounds like a wise plan to me bro... The corpse like sleep definitely beats the benefits of eating any kind of meat or organs :-) Maybe:-) Sounds

Thanks again. 

[Josh]

Yuli et al, I'm not advocating slavish devotion to exclusively paleo veg or meat for that matter, but I wouldn't want to go the other way and say it doesn't matter.

Some fruit and veg were developed from fairly inedible toxic plants e.g. nightshades. I can't say they give me noticable problems, but I feel better leaving them out.

Some come from random parts of the world, Asia etc. I wouldn't necessarily not try them, but I feel better not basing my diet around them, feeling that they may have constituents that we're not evolved to deal with, or just be unusual kinds of plants like bananas. I know when I was eating a lot of papaya abroad I think it was a bit allergenic.

Some come from fruit that are 'edible' but very sour etc, e.g. apples from crab apples. I'm not sure about these, they don't really agree with my stomach.

I don't have evidence that any of these are bad, and I'm not really going to dig too deep looking for a definitive answer, but I feel for myself that 'paleo' fruit and veg is a safe bet...and that while we don't know scientific truth some reasoning about it can help.

For example, melons are not too far from African native plants, and they feel good in my stomach, seem 'neutral' feeling after I eat them.

Can't really rule out the power of the mind, but I feel a lot better about it than say tomatoes.

[Josh]

By the way, can anyone shed light on the starches in squash?

The nutritional info says about 12g carb/100g. About 2 from sugars, about 2 fibre. No figure for starch, so I guess this is the difference about 8g/100g. Maybe they don't measure this separately?

[deletemyaccount]

By the way, can anyone shed light on the starches in squash?

The nutritional info says about 12g carb/100g. About 2 from sugars, about 2 fibre. No figure for starch, so I guess this is the difference about 8g/100g. Maybe they don't measure this separately?

Bro you may be analyzing things too much...go to www.nutritiondata.com type in squash, choose the kind you want and analyze all of your vitamins, minerals, carbs, fructose, starch, fattys acids, etc. 1 pound of butternut squash has about 54 grams of carbs and is full of other vitamins and minerals

[Josh]

It doesn't say how much starch is in there, that's the point.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2647/2

[deletemyaccount]

It doesn't say how much starch is in there, that's the point.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2647/2

Subtract the fructose content and you'll get the starch content

[sabertooth]

I experimented with baked squash when I was pre diabetic, I had mixed results. My sugars wouldn't spike as much as it did with grains but I still had trouble with carbs in general.

Right now my main carb is coconut and lemon water, although I have had a few berry's without any issues, it seems my diabetes has been cured but I still want to play it safe by waiting a little longer to add more carbs.

[deletemyaccount]

I experimented with baked squash when I was pre diabetic, I had mixed results. My sugars wouldn't spike as much as it did with grains but I still had trouble with carbs in general.

Right now my main carb is coconut and lemon water, although I have had a few berry's without any issues, it seems my diabetes has been cured but I still want to play it safe by waiting a little longer to add more carbs.

You mentioned that you have BAKED the squash... that means that you've cooked it, some squash is high on the GI so of course if you ate it cooked it spiked your blood glucose. Have it raw next time if you can digest it and I'm pretty sure that it won't be as bad

[Busgrw]

Loads of good info guys, thanks.

Josh, interesting you mentioned the nightshades as its the stories around their toxicity that get me nervous about different fruit and veg for me to try. I'll definitely not be comsuming any of the nightshades and will only be experimenting with the squash, melon (as you mentioned below) etc until I can find a source of carbs that is digestible and good for me. In the long run I still plan to try and lessen my need for carbs as i'd rather get the majority if not all of my energy requirements from meat and fat but for now I need the carbs for reasons already mentioned not least a good nights sleep.

Out of interest, what are your main sources of fruit and veg at the moment that work for you? Not saying i'm just going to copy as each person reacts differently but it would be good to get an idea of what's working for you. given you're way further down the road.

Some fruit and veg were developed from fairly inedible toxic plants e.g. nightshades. I can't say they give me noticable problems, but I feel better leaving them out.

I don't have evidence that any of these are bad, and I'm not really going to dig too deep looking for a definitive answer, but I feel for myself that 'paleo' fruit and veg is a safe bet...and that while we don't know scientific truth some reasoning about it can help.

For example, melons are not too far from African native plants, and they feel good in my stomach, seem 'neutral' feeling after I eat them.

Can't really rule out the power of the mind, but I feel a lot better about it than say tomatoes.

I'm glad that I could help out because its pretty obvious that I'm not the only who has had these problems. It's a relief for me as well to know that I'm not the only one who experiences these issues when completely cutting out carbs.

You and me both mate.

The funny thing is that I don't crave the carbohydrates at all, but the insomnia and the other issues are just unbearable. Quality of life is more important than trying to follow some kind of strict belief which doesn't always suit every single individual. Come on people, we're already eating as healthy as we can by eating good quality raw animal foods and I don't think that a few carbs from root veggies or fruits have ever killed anyone. I hope that didn't sound too biased towards eating the squashes but I after trying all of the other root vegetables, I found them to suit me the best. Carrots, parsnips, and plantains are also delicious but not as nutritious as the squash. Fruits, other than plantains don't seem to work as well when it comes to carbs for me, perhaps because of the fructose which is metabolized differently. However, stressing about these silly trivial things is going to do far more harm than eating any kind of carbohydrates.

Here here 

[Josh]

Melons have been the best for me, and also berries and cucumbers are ok. I don't really have any major issues though so it's hard to notice any problems.

Those are just the ones that feel best in my stomach, and that I have a feeling are best.

I tried butternut squash the last couple of days and felt fine. I don't 100% like the taste but it's not too bad, and the buttery nutty aftertaste is interesting.

[sabertooth]

 

You mentioned that you have BAKED the squash... that means that you've cooked it, some squash is high on the GI so of course if you ate it cooked it spiked your blood glucose. Have it raw next time if you can digest it and I'm pretty sure that it won't be as bad

I was eatting raw summer squash back when I was struggling with blood sugar issues, but at the time my digestion was so impaired that raw plant foods would pass through me undigested. I was so malnourished because cook meat made me feel sick as well, so I was attempting to get my daily vittles from veggies and it wasn't working at all. I believe that squash can be good for people who aren't so damaged, but I am not ready to risk it just yet based on my past issues.

[Busgrw]

I was eatting raw summer squash back when I was struggling with blood sugar issues, but at the time my digestion was so impaired that raw plant foods would pass through me undigested. I was so malnourished because cook meat made me feel sick as well, so I was attempting to get my daily vittles from veggies and it wasn't working at all. I believe that squash can be good for people who aren't so damaged, but I am not ready to risk it just yet based on my past issues.

Sounds like you've had some success given you call them 'past' issues. Can I ask what you did in order to improve things? Raw meat?

[sabertooth]

( in a nut shell) I have had a good experience in my 11 months of going paleo, thats one reason why I still hang out here and rave about the issues and try to learn as much as I can. I had reached a point last year when I could no longer eat anything without severe gut pain and sugar spikes. I don't know what condition to compain about the most, but somehow everything seemed to suck. I got viral meningitis a couple of times, hand foot and mouth, K9 parvo(seriously I though I was dieing and couldn't eat anything for a week, was dry heaving and spitting up foam.) My white counts were a little low and my blood sugar a little high and my liver enzymes were off, but no doctor could tell me what was happening. I would have swollen glands and lympnodes and joints lock up during some type of flareup. I had no money or insurance and so was show the door with a scrip for anti depression meds, by uncaring roboticaly trained doctors (Its an injustice that I will never forget.)

I became so wheat intolerant that I would have disorienting episodes and gut pains after eatting any. So I promised to do something about it, and began to research, which lead me into the smokescreen and mirrors of the natural health movement which is so missleading that I often wonder about all those poor souls who actually follow their guidelines of whole grains and low fat and soy.

Eventually I found out about Weston price and Av and while my wife was in the hospital with our new baby I went straight into a raw carnivorous diet. Within a week my blood sugars stabilize and would only spike if I ate a piece of fruit or drank some raw milk, so I took those out of the diet  and after about 3 weeks my blood sugars stayed around 100, whereas before it was over 110. My stomach stopped hurting and my liver became  unclogged. I was having the most complete digestion of food I can ever remember. I eventually lowered my sugars to the mid 80s and even after a large meal I wont go over 95, (when I was ill I would sometimes spike up to 170 and then stay in the 130s,and I would feel terrible all day).

I am eatting a ketotogenic diet were at least 70% of my calories come from raw fat(lamb trimmings, bone marrow, fatty cuts, egg yolks,coconut. While about 20 to 25% come from protein and only 5% from carbs. I am on one of the more extremely carnivorous forms of the raw paleo diet, because of my bloodsugar issues I didn't have much choice, But I can tell you that my recovery has been truly incredible.

Perhaps for someone who isn't as damaged as I was, trying to adapt to this type of extreme diet may not be best, and there may be draw backs for some people that may have different issues. People with less desperate problems might want to try gradually easing into a more ketogenic diet and try to test for themselves how much raw fat they feel good with, also its importaint to know, source matters. I have developed extra sensory perceptions when it comes to tasting meat and I can tell after a difference between different qualities of grassfed, some store bought stuff just doesn't taste right, so I will have look for something different. Before I found my unlimited lamb fat source I was constantly searching for quality beef fat. Sometimes I would get some that was just excellent and other  times I was put off by something that I cant really describe. (now I am ranting), but I often wonder about how some peoples lack of success on this high fat diet may be a quality issue. If you are going to live off of animal fat then it is more important to make sure its 100% pure, than someone who only eats 30 percent or lessof fat and is living using alot of clean paleo carbs.

[Busgrw]

( in a nut shell) I ....................

Thanks for the 'in a nutshell' Sabertooth. A detailed response and very much appreciated. I have the overall goal of being ketogenic at least to see how I feel in that state for a while but it will take me a while as the few times I have tried to get ketogenic have not been successful as my body wont adapt to the low carbs easily. I'll get there eventually I hope.

Congratulations on your success.

Cheers.