What would AV say, re honey/teeth?

[risrosen]

In my first somewhat extended (2-3 weeks) attempt at RP recently, I was eating quite a lot of (unheated raw) honey.  Some of this was with fat--not, however, raw butter, because I couldn't get any--and some not, just because of my really poor digestion.  At one point I got some migraines over a couple of days (I was living on mostly raw eggs, and I assumed the migraines were detox--I used to get them a lot years ago), and dealt with them through the solution given in WWTL, which is to eat a little honey every 5 minutes or so until it goes away.  That worked fairly well.

At first with the honey, I seemed to handle it well, without getting noticeable blood sugar issues.  And it didn't seem to bother my teeth, which usually will react fairly quickly to a lot of sugar eating.  In fact, my teeth seemed to get less sensitive; I didn't have any problem rinsing my mouth with cold water, for example, which usually is very uncomfortable.  But then suddenly, when I was getting the migraines, I got a fairly bad toothache, and I ended up losing some dental fillings, which will happen if I eat a lot of sugar.  So I dropped the honey immediately.

I'd already called Aajonus the day before about something else, and money being tight I was hesitant to spend another $35 to ask him about this.  Can anyone hazard a guess about what he might say about this honey issue?  He seems to think that unheated honey can't cause problems with teeth, from what I've read.  Mine aren't in very good shape from everything I've gone through digestively in the last 15 years.

[TylerDurden]

Well, I have heard comments from some USers that AV has ceased the promotion of HUGE amounts of raw honey, but he still seems to be fond of raw honey in moderate amounts. In this case, rather than depending on costly AV, I would suggest experimenting constantly to see what works(eg:- 2 months with lots of raw honey, 2 months with very little raw honey, and 2 months with no raw honey whatsoever, etc.)

[risrosen]

Well, considering a fairly short time with the honey had fillings falling out, pain, etc., I would sure hesitate to do any further significant amounts until I heard some cogent explanation/solution about the matter.

I will add, for what it's worth--and I can't imagine that's very much, but who knows--that just before the problems started, I had to switch from honey in a glass jar to honey in a plastic jar.  But I doubt that means anything, that the damage had been done from the first while with the first honey.

[King Salmon]

Honestly,this is an experimental diet.I wouldn't(and I certainly/obviously don't)rely on AV for all the answers.I realize that some people feel he's an "authority" on the subject.I view him more as a "popularizer".

Btw,I do respect the guy.As I've said in previous posts,met him quite a few times in the early days.

[risrosen]

Yeah, I know, but with the honey thing, he seems to recommend it SO much in his book for just about everything, I'd think people's teeth would be developing a lot of problems if it did harm teeth in pretty large amounts.  And to have a go with the RP, it seems I'd have to be eating mostly eggs and honey/butter, and maybe some goat milk if I could get it, for a prolonged period.  So I need to know if the honey fairly safe in that context.  

Perhaps it's safer mixed with the butter than just plain?

[RawZi]

I would sure hesitate to do any further significant amounts until I heard some cogent explanation/solution about the matter.

I will add, for what it's worth--and I can't imagine that's very much, but who knows--that just before the problems started, I had to switch from honey in a glass jar to honey in a plastic jar.  But I doubt that means anything.

    How much are you meaning, by significant amounts?  Earlier you had posted that some days the great majority of your calories are from honey, one day eating only one egg and the rest of calls from honey.  I don't know that AV would ever agree to a person taking that amount.

    One of the days you wrote you got a migraine, then your fillings fell out.  I think that would be consistent where it's said that aajonus says the brain detoxes through the teeth.  Maybe your brain has toxins, and your fillings were in the way of the toxins leaving.

    That's funny.  When ordering honey, they asked me about the glass plastic thing almost apologetically.  I like glass much better, but I'm not sure plastic harms honey easily.  I went for the plastic, a gallon jar, it was fine.

    I heard AV say to use a tiny drop of honey with a sugar cube size of RAW cheese (unsalted) fifteen minutes after meals to get the minerals (calcium) from the cheese.  I know he recommends a little honey with food to help digestion and help other things in the body.  Does he ever recommend a honey diet garnished with an egg occasionally?  It sounds good for a humming bird.  I knew a raw foodist who ate mostly honey, he buzzed around wildly all day.

    Are you still eating the cooked meat?  I've always had such trouble with cooked meat.  My immune system must feel my body is totally invaded when cooked meat enters.  Everything starts hurting, stiffness and all kinds of stuff happens.  What health problems got you to start thinking of trying raw?  When was the first time you tried raw meat?  Have you eaten it regularly?  I tasted it as a child.  I started eating it regularly about four years ago, that's when I first tasted it again.  There was about 35 years in between.  I actually didn't touch cooked meat either for most of that time.  Maybe honey is easier on someone who hasn't eaten too much cooked meat, but I don't think so.  I know AV has said raw meat is man's diet, early man, that food above all else.  I also know people he recommends eggs and nothing at all else, as their digestive tracts are messed up.

    Maybe you should dump the honey and just eat eggs.  My teeth feel cleaned by eating eggs.  I think it's the egg whites.  If you haven't yet, maybe see if an all egg diet 100%, if that alone works better with your teeth.  AV does promote for most of the calories in the diet to be of fat.

[RawZi]

And to have a go with the RP, it seems I'd have to be eating mostly eggs and honey/butter, and maybe some goat milk if I could get it, for a prolonged period.  ...  

Perhaps it's safer mixed with the butter than just plain?

    What ratio honey to butter did AV tell you?  Everyone I know he tells cow milk.  I've heard babies and vegetarians do better with goat.  You're not vego, right?  

    Which book, RFLWD?

[TylerDurden]

Even the Primal Diet includes a lot of raw meat in it, as a mainstay. So, even PDers don't just eat only raw honey, raw dairy and raw eggs.

You may be one of those that cannot handle raw carbs well, in which case, lower the carbs for now.

[michaelwh]

Yeah, I know, but with the honey thing, he seems to recommend it SO much in his book for just about everything, I'd think people's teeth would be developing a lot of problems if it did harm teeth in pretty large amounts.

AV cut back his honey recommendations after WWTL was published.

I heard AV say to use a tiny drop of honey with a sugar cube size of RAW cheese (unsalted) fifteen minutes after meals to get the minerals (calcium) from the cheese. 

I heard him recommend this formula to someone who had tooth problems, and needed extra minerals.
He recommended a ratio of 1 part honey, 6 parts cheese.

The logic is, that the minerals in cheese are very hard to digest and assimilate if the cheese is eaten alone, because it is a dehydrated food, and the honey adds enzymes to make it easily digested and absorbed.

On another occasion, I heard AV say that you can get the same effect by just drinking lots and lots of milk.

Personally, if I eat honey on a daily basis, about 1tbsp per day, then my teeth start getting loose. (But they don't hurt). So I don't eat honey on a regular basis. I sometimes eat it when I have a bad cough, and don't have much appetite for solid food.

[RawZi]

I heard him recommend this formula to someone who had tooth problems, and needed extra minerals.
He recommended a ratio of 1 part honey, 6 parts cheese.

The logic is, that the minerals in cheese are very hard to digest and assimilate if the cheese is eaten alone, because it is a dehydrated food, and the honey adds enzymes to make it easily digested and absorbed.

On another occasion, I heard AV say that you can get the same effect by just drinking lots and lots of milk. ... So I don't eat honey on a regular basis. I sometimes eat it when I have a bad cough, and don't have much appetite for solid food.

    He has a formula for the mornings that contains honey I think for when you have a cold.

    How about honey:butter?  Have you heard him talk about that ratio?

    How were you eating the honey?

    I think some people might be confused by the words dehydrated food.  I just want to make it clear that it doesn't mean cheese was made in a dehydrator. Cheese can dehydrate itself.  I've left sheep milk in a glass on the coffee table a few hours.  The whey separated and left a clump of good cheese in the middle.  I hadn't added or done anything.

   

[risrosen]

    How much are you meaning, by significant amounts?  Earlier you had posted that some days the great majority of your calories are from honey, one day eating only one egg and the rest of calls from honey.  I don't know that AV would ever agree to a person taking that amount.

    One of the days you wrote you got a migraine, then your fillings fell out.  I think that would be consistent where it's said that aajonus says the brain detoxes through the teeth.  Maybe your brain has toxins, and your fillings were in the way of the toxins leaving.

    That's funny.  When ordering honey, they asked me about the glass plastic thing almost apologetically.  I like glass much better, but I'm not sure plastic harms honey easily.  I went for the plastic, a gallon jar, it was fine.

    I heard AV say to use a tiny drop of honey with a sugar cube size of RAW cheese (unsalted) fifteen minutes after meals to get the minerals (calcium) from the cheese.  I know he recommends a little honey with food to help digestion and help other things in the body.  Does he ever recommend a honey diet garnished with an egg occasionally?  It sounds good for a humming bird.  I knew a raw foodist who ate mostly honey, he buzzed around wildly all day.

    Are you still eating the cooked meat?  I've always had such trouble with cooked meat.  My immune system must feel my body is totally invaded when cooked meat enters.  Everything starts hurting, stiffness and all kinds of stuff happens.  What health problems got you to start thinking of trying raw?  When was the first time you tried raw meat?  Have you eaten it regularly?  I tasted it as a child.  I started eating it regularly about four years ago, that's when I first tasted it again.  There was about 35 years in between.  I actually didn't touch cooked meat either for most of that time.  Maybe honey is easier on someone who hasn't eaten too much cooked meat, but I don't think so.  I know AV has said raw meat is man's diet, early man, that food above all else.  I also know people he recommends eggs and nothing at all else, as their digestive tracts are messed up.

    Maybe you should dump the honey and just eat eggs.  My teeth feel cleaned by eating eggs.  I think it's the egg whites.  If you haven't yet, maybe see if an all egg diet 100%, if that alone works better with your teeth.  AV does promote for most of the calories in the diet to be of fat.

That one day you referred to was very unusual, when I felt like I couldn't eat anything.  I'd never do that otherwise.  Other than that one day, I just used it in the remedies AV gives, when I was trying them.

What you wrote about the brain detox, that's the kind of thing I'm thinking might have been happening. 

I haven't done much raw meat.  Had some experiences of feeling really good from it, but my digestion is just too messed up to handle much of it (can only eat 2 oz at a time, and even that gives me problems).  That's why I just do eggs for RAP.  But I can't just eat raw eggs all day; my body clearly signals that I need something else in addition, so since someone said that AV starts people with messed up digestive tracts on eggs and honey/butter and very little else, I thought to try the h/b, as soon as I can get some raw butter.  But I want to make sure it's not going to hurt my teeth. 

[risrosen]

   What ratio honey to butter did AV tell you?  Everyone I know he tells cow milk.  I've heard babies and vegetarians do better with goat.  You're not vego, right?  

    Which book, RFLWD?

He didn't say.  I just assumed it would be equal. 
I'm not vego, but I do better with goat, whether it's raw or not.
The only book I have is WWTL.

[risrosen]

Even the Primal Diet includes a lot of raw meat in it, as a mainstay. So, even PDers don't just eat only raw honey, raw dairy and raw eggs.

I know, but I'm one of those who's GI tracts are too messed up to start on meat yet.

[RawZi]

    Hi Rick.  

    When was the last time you ate cooked meat?

Also, I'm considering doing the coconut oil detox.  Do you think it's too early for that?

    Are you on the primal diet?

I'd already called Aajonus the day before about something else, and money being tight I was hesitant to spend another $35 to ask him about this.  ...  Mine aren't in very good shape from everything I've gone through digestively in the last 15 years.

    Could you tell us a little of how those digestive problems started 15 years ago or something of what you've been through in the interim?    

If you stay beyond potluck-festivity to enjoy and learn from Aajonus’ answers, please bring $35.  Raise your hand if you have a question.
There is no fee for the potluck, but everyone is expected to bring and share a raw-meat dish for 2-4 people that is compatible with Aajonus’ Primal Diet (no salt, no store-bought sauces, and no vegetable salads, please!).

P.S.  You may bring guests and guests are required to bring raw-food dishes, not wear perfumes or fragrance oils, and pay $35 if they stay for Q&A.

    For the past three years every time I call aajonus he charges me $60.  Maybe three years ago it was thirty, but definitely for two years 60.  

    When I first went to one of his question and answer potlucks, to stay was $20.  I didn't have money on me, and a primal dieter I just met there paid so I could stay.  I gave him my question, if memory serves me.

    I don't mean to make you feel bad.  I just want to understand, it might help me answer better.

He didn't say.  I just assumed it would be equal.  
I'm not vego, but I do better with goat, whether it's raw or not.

    Long time PDers, successful ones, tell me he says 8:1.

    Which other animals have you tried raw milk from?  Was it grainfed?  Was it chilled?  

[michaelwh]

    He has a formula for the mornings that contains honey I think for when you have a cold.

This year, my cough/cold was not so bad. Last year, it was quite horrible, and I took that formula every morning for about 1-2 months. It helped to temporarily soothe my throat. The formula is basically a mixture of ACV, lemon, and honey.

    How about honey:butter?  Have you heard him talk about that ratio?

I never made the butter&honey mixture, so I don't remember the ratio. I'll have to dig up my notes.

    How were you eating the honey?

Mixed with veg juice, mixed with milk, sometimes mixed with coconut cream and fruit.
Sometimes I would eat a tsp of honey straight, and then follow it up with a few eggs, or a few tablespoons of suet.

    I think some people might be confused by the words dehydrated food.  I just want to make it clear that it doesn't mean cheese was made in a dehydrator. Cheese can dehydrate itself.  I've left sheep milk in a glass on the coffee table a few hours.  The whey separated and left a clump of good cheese in the middle.  I hadn't added or done anything.

Yes. But even the process of making fresh cottage cheese from milk can be considered "dehydration",
because you are removing most of the water from the milk, and concentrating the proteins and fat.

[risrosen]

Hi RawZi,

Last time I ate cooked meat...let's see...gosh...it was...oh yeah, last night.
I'm not currently on a primal or raw diet.  Consulting with a medical intuitive at the moment.  If his program doesn't help enough I'll probably end up giving raw paleo a more thorough shot, so that's why I asked about the honey.

My problems started 15 years ago when I became an Ayurvedic vegetarian.  I also did a week of panchakarma, which involves a very low-fat diet.  I then started getting full too fast and having trouble swallowing food.  My belief is that my liver was probably compromised going into this, and with this diet (and also that I was in a situation in which I was eating in stressful conditions at the same time), it just began to give me overt problems.  These increased gradually as I continued to eat a mostly vegan diet until I started having very acute trouble digesting fats, and finally one day I had a major digestive episode eating a meal with a lot of fat, from which I never recovered; from then on I could only eat small amounts of food at a time and began living on cereal and sweet stuff, sometimes including huge amounts of sugar, which went on for 8+ years.  Eventually I started eating meat and more regular-type foods again, but it's always been difficult.  

During all that I also developed a severe OCD about any kind of stress during eating, which can make eating very difficult on top of the other problems that I developed (constipation, blood sugar problems, stomach gas) along with all this.

As for milk: I went on the raw milk cure for quite a while early this year, using fermented milk.  Not chilled.  Had to be able to skim some cream off, so had to use cow rather than goat.  Still had a lot of trouble with t.  Tried everything, including totally grass-fed with no grain, to no avail.  I've not tried any milk other than cow and goat, but of those two goat is clearly better for me.

One thing about the raw paleo is that the OCD problem is much better eating that food.  So I was doing it for a couple of weeks prior to a week ago, because I was in an ongoing triggering situation.  That was my second try with raw paleo.  The first time was a few years ago, when I had very little knowledge about it (still had some eye-opening experiences, though).  This time I finally stopped due mostly to not really having anything besides the raw eggs to eat that worked well, and now I've gone on Xanax just to be able to eat the (mostly cooked) food on the medical intuitive's program.  First time I've resorted to that.  Should just be for a short time, though.

Aajonus' minimum phone charge currently is $35, which is a 10-minute call.

Rick

[RawZi]

Aajonus' minimum phone charge currently is $35, which is a 10-minute call.

Rick

    Oh yeah, I've spoken with him on phone, but I always wind up writing.  I feel like I have too much to say at those times to fit into ten minutes, hence $60.

    Sounds like you are very nervous.  This may be deteriorating your teeth.  I would say try harder to eat raw grassfed meat.  Have you tried raw chicken?  Raw fish?  If so, how was it?  Did you eat it with fat?  Maybe you are addicted to cooked meat.

[risrosen]

   Oh yeah, I've spoken with him on phone, but I always wind up writing.  I feel like I have too much to say at those times to fit into ten minutes, hence $60.

    Sounds like you are very nervous.  This may be deteriorating your teeth.  I would say try harder to eat raw grassfed meat.  Have you tried raw chicken?  Raw fish?  If so, how was it?  Did you eat it with fat?  Maybe you are addicted to cooked meat.

Nervous?  Me?  Just because I have to take an anxiety med to eat?  Surely you jest.

My teeth have suffered enormous abuse during the last 15 years, with all the sugar and lack of nutrition and all.  They are plenty deteriorated already.  But if suddenly things happen after eating a lot of unheated honey, I want to know why--nervousness is not a sufficient explanation, obviously.

I've tried raw fish, muscle meats, liver.  I generally don't have a problem with the "yuk factor" kind of thing.  I just can only eat about 2 oz., with or without fat.  I'd much rather eat raw meat than raw eggs, as I find it much more satisfying and it makes me feel better.  But eggs are way easier for me to digest.  I'm not going to "try harder"; my digestive limits have made themselves very clear.

As for being "addicted" to cooked meat, I think that presupposes the "raw meat good, cooked meat bad" sort of paradigm, which I'm not prepared to subscribe to.  At this point I'm so thoroughly confused that I have pretty much given up on dietary paradigms beyond "SAD is bad" and am just going with what works best.

[yuli]

Honestly I have eaten a lot of honey and never have my teeth had a problem since I moved to Canada about 18 years ago...
Whats funny is my diet didn't change but in Russia I had cavities and since I am here I have only been to the dentist like twice and they didn't do anything except clean my teeth and replace cheap filling I got in Russia as a kid.
I have on numerous occasions forgotten to brush my teeth even when I was on SAD and smoked ciggs and did many drugs etc....I'd eat some sweets or junk and go to bed w/o brushing...nothing, my teeth still no cavities...so it must be something else, a certain mineral ratio, the water, we don't know.
Yesterday I had a sweet craving and ate about 15 tablespoons of raw honey with bee pollen and almond butter (its what happens to me the day before my monthly thing, honey fever LOL), fell asleep without even rinsing the teeth...

My teeth have suffered enormous abuse during the last 15 years, with all the sugar and lack of nutrition and all.  They are plenty deteriorated already.  But if suddenly things happen after eating a lot of unheated honey, I want to know why--nervousness is not a sufficient explanation, obviously.

...see my above comment, its not just the sugar, I think its something else, I don't think its the honey either.

Since you can only digest 2 oz raw meat at a time thats a hint that you have weak digestion (like you didn't know that) and when digestion is weak other things become weak.

How much meat do you eat about in a day? Not just raw I mean cooked, and how do you usually cook it? Make sure you eat enough meat and if I were you I would try and eat the 2oz raw meat as often as possible, if thats how much you can digest then just eat more often and you may get used to it and start being able to eat more of it. I would also include lots of fermented stuff, like Kefir (make sure ingredients are just whole crean/milk and bacterias though) and make some saurkraut, I would also add natural unprocessed sea salt if I were you.

I've tried raw fish, muscle meats, liver.  I generally don't have a problem with the "yuk factor" kind of thing.  I just can only eat about 2 oz., with or without fat.  I'd much rather eat raw meat than raw eggs, as I find it much more satisfying and it makes me feel better.  But eggs are way easier for me to digest.  I'm not going to "try harder"; my digestive limits have made themselves very clear.

Try quail eggs, before you eat them keep em out of the fridge so they are room temperature, mix them in a bowl with a fork and drink, delicious....and I can't even eat raw chicken eggs with the white.

As for being "addicted" to cooked meat, I think that presupposes the "raw meat good, cooked meat bad" sort of paradigm, which I'm not prepared to subscribe to.  At this point I'm so thoroughly confused that I have pretty much given up on dietary paradigms beyond "SAD is bad" and am just going with what works best.

It sucks to be confused, try and simplify your life as much as you can and you'll get better health results. I don't subscribe to the "raw meat good, cooked meat bad" thing either, thats a little too generalized IMO. Whats bad for some can be good for others. I do believe that raw meat promotes faster healing, so any times in your life when you need to heal and get better with efficiency its a good idea to just go with raw meat only (ahem for you its NOW). Once stabilized I don't see the need to be strict on yourself if you want it eat it. When you are healthy too much junk will disgust you anyway and your body will tell you to stop. I also believe a healthy vigorous person should ideally not have any problems digesting any kind of meat, I use both to my advantage and by doing this I can avoid junk foods with ease and feel full but I am the oppsite of you in the matter that I digest everything very fast.

Anyway thats my advice take it with a lot of grains of salt 

[risrosen]

Your points are well-taken, Yuli, and I thank you for them.   "Confused" was a poorly chosen word; I just meant I don't want to be dogmatic about practically anything to do with diet anymore.  Seems like there's nothing that doesn't work for some people.

As I said, I'm following the medical intuitive's protocol.  He gave me a list of foods that he intuited would be good for me but he didn't specify anything about how I should structure my eating them.  I do eat meat (steamed fish, fish is the only meat allowed me thus far) or eggs (can even be raw!) 3x/day.  The supplements are very important in this treatment.  I do want to give this a fair shot, anyway, before I think seriously about going back to RP, but that would almost certainly be next in line.  If I do come back to this I'll keep what you've said in mind.

I have noooooo idea where to get quail eggs though...

Anyway, I'll take your ideas with lots of salt, as you suggest...but doesn't AV say salt is bad for the adrenals?  Oh well...

[RawZi]

I just can only eat about 2 oz., with or without fat...

As for being "addicted" to cooked meat, I think that presupposes the "raw meat good, cooked meat bad" sort of paradigm, which I'm not prepared to subscribe to...

    What do you mean, you can only eat two ounces.  Do you start projectile vomiting?

    I don't believe in good vs bad.  Eating cooked food brings on leukocytes in the body.  You are on a raw forum.  You have been trying for years.  You want to eat raw.  You are finding it near impossible.  You keep eating cooked meat.  Cooked meat eating has been studied.  You don't stick with grassfed.  You've never said how you cook your meat.  Certain styles of cooking meat seem to have been proven to raise peoples chances of heart disease, cancer and other diseases.  Cooking meat destroys B vitamins.  B vitamins help keep you calm.  Cooked meat isn't bad, but I'd say you may be addicted to it.  Yuli has a good idea.  Eat that 2 oz so often, that you don't have to eat big cooked meat meals. 

    Do fish, liver and all other meats give you the same exact symptom/stop signals as each other?  Do highmeats do it too?  Have you tried preserved meats?  Are the raw meats marinated or dried?

    When I started eating this diet I ALWAYS ate unheated honey with my (raw) meat.  I didn't do it in a 50:50 proportion.  It helped my digestion and more.  I did the honey way to help microorganisms.  Eating the two together as such, it strengthened my heart. 

   I think cooked meat is fine, but my teeth don't.  Any kind of dense protein cooked causes pain in my teeth, raw dark cruciferous whole greens too.  Maybe if I ate whole meals of it and often, my teeth would be loosening.  I'd be wishing they'd fall out, or that I could have some drugs.  I'd best let everyone know if they were bothering me like that, that there's a problem and I need help.  It just causes too much problem in my body.  I have to find my way with raw.  I too, don't usually eat much meat.  I have almost never eaten more than 3 oz at a time.  If I need it more often, that's what I should do.  I don't want to look toothless or have pain. 

    Paleo man ate almost all of his meat raw.  He had strong teeth.  Apparently to me his teeth stayed in by eating raw meat.  Modern man needs so many caps, crowns, fillings and root canals.  Modern man hardly ever eats raw meat, and frequently eats cooked meat.  There doesn't seem to be much math there for me.

    I agree with Yuli, as I pretty much said before.  Honey is not bad.  Even people with sensitivities to honey find changing which flower it comes from, whether they eat it with wax etc can make all the difference in the world.  I truly wish you well. 

[RawZi]

What would AV say .. re .. teeth?

    What kind of dental hygiene techniques do you use?  Do you use toothpaste?  If so, what are the ingredients?

[yuli]

I have noooooo idea where to get quail eggs though...

china-town, Asian store, Chinese supermarkets...its part of their cuisine so anywhere Asian you'll find them

Anyway, I'll take your ideas with lots of salt, as you suggest...but doesn't AV say salt is bad for the adrenals?  Oh well...

heh, I didn't mean gorge on salt, but do not be afraid to add unrefined natural sea salts and tasty seaweeds like Dulse (which you can find raw easily in supermarkets....at least here you can), I think it will keep you mineralized and electrolyzed anyways I feel good when I include these things. Its something to try...of course gorging on it may give problems like AV said, but not if you use it in moderation.

I agree with RawZi too that people that in the very least add raw meats and raw meals to their diet stay healthier. Even by looking at the diets of of different people today.

[risrosen]

    What do you mean, you can only eat two ounces.  Do you start projectile vomiting?

    I don't believe in good vs bad.  Eating cooked food brings on leukocytes in the body.  You are on a raw forum.  You have been trying for years.  You want to eat raw.  You are finding it near impossible.  You keep eating cooked meat.  Cooked meat eating has been studied.  You don't stick with grassfed.  You've never said how you cook your meat.  Certain styles of cooking meat seem to have been proven to raise peoples chances of heart disease, cancer and other diseases.  Cooking meat destroys B vitamins.  B vitamins help keep you calm.  Cooked meat isn't bad, but I'd say you may be addicted to it.  Yuli has a good idea.  Eat that 2 oz so often, that you don't have to eat big cooked meat meals. 

    Do fish, liver and all other meats give you the same exact symptom/stop signals as each other?  Do highmeats do it too?  Have you tried preserved meats?  Are the raw meats marinated or dried?

    When I started eating this diet I ALWAYS ate unheated honey with my (raw) meat.  I didn't do it in a 50:50 proportion.  It helped my digestion and more.  I did the honey way to help microorganisms.  Eating the two together as such, it strengthened my heart. 

   I think cooked meat is fine, but my teeth don't.  Any kind of dense protein cooked causes pain in my teeth, raw dark cruciferous whole greens too.  Maybe if I ate whole meals of it and often, my teeth would be loosening.  I'd be wishing they'd fall out, or that I could have some drugs.  I'd best let everyone know if they were bothering me like that, that there's a problem and I need help.  It just causes too much problem in my body.  I have to find my way with raw.  I too, don't usually eat much meat.  I have almost never eaten more than 3 oz at a time.  If I need it more often, that's what I should do.  I don't want to look toothless or have pain. 

    Paleo man ate almost all of his meat raw.  He had strong teeth.  Apparently to me his teeth stayed in by eating raw meat.  Modern man needs so many caps, crowns, fillings and root canals.  Modern man hardly ever eats raw meat, and frequently eats cooked meat.  There doesn't seem to be much math there for me.

    I agree with Yuli, as I pretty much said before.  Honey is not bad.  Even people with sensitivities to honey find changing which flower it comes from, whether they eat it with wax etc can make all the difference in the world.  I truly wish you well. 

Okay, shouldn't have used "good" and "bad".  I meant, healthful or unhealthful for humans.

As for eating the raw meat: no projectile vomiting, I just get full, or at least have a feeling of being full.  That feeling can last for hours.  Doesn't matter if it's grassfed or not, organ or muscle meat.  It happens with wild fish too.  It doesn't work for me to eat the 2 oz. raw meat frequently throughout the day.  Just the 2 oz. is tiring to my digestion and repeating becomes harder and harder.  I don't have that problem with eggs.  So it's easy for me to see why AV starts people with very poor digestion on eggs and no meat.  There's value in giving the digestion a little challenge, to gradually increase its strength, but too much is too much.  Better to give the body a chance to do some healing first, until it can handle the meat.

Haven't tried high meat yet, but one only eats very small amounts of that at a time anyway, right?  Haven't tried marinated, preserved, etc.

At the moment, I'm not sure if I want to do raw or not.  I haven't been trying THAT for years, but maybe that's not what you were saying--just trying different things for years, which is the case.  I wasn't finding raw impossible when I was doing it recently, just difficult.  Had a bad constipation problem, called AV, he straightened it out.  That did impress me.  I've also been very impressed with some of my raw experiences.  But I was doing some things wrong in trying to go it on my own (using his book), that AV pointed out (his book is often unclear or misleading, it seems to me).  So I think that if I'm going to attempt to go raw for healing, I'd better have a consultation with him.  And that means an investment of money--not just initially, but every time I have to contact him afterward with problems, and there may be many.  And I only have a certain amount of trust in him, and quite a lot of mistrust.  As someone in this thread pointed out, this is all experimental.  And I've already invested money in this other program, and a little time, and I want to at least keep my options open with the intuitive, which may not be possible if I go starting and stopping.  Some things about his program are impressing me too.

So, not a simple decision.  And there are other issues that I won't bring up here.

Thanks for the feedback and the good wishes.

[RawZi]

I just get full, or at least have a feeling of being full.  That feeling can last for hours.  Doesn't matter if it's grassfed or not, organ or muscle meat.  It happens with wild fish too.  It doesn't work for me to eat the 2 oz. raw meat frequently throughout the day.  Just the 2 oz. is tiring to my digestion and repeating becomes harder and harder.  I don't have that problem with eggs.  So it's easy for me to see why AV starts people with very poor digestion on eggs and no meat.  There's value in giving the digestion a little challenge, to gradually increase its strength, but too much is too much.  Better to give the body a chance to do some healing first, until it can handle the meat.

    See, we know best our own situations, us lay people, you and I.  I could never in my life digest cooked meat.  I never seemed to have the HCL for it.  Raw meat grew its own bacteria, so it's a breeze in comparison, and I had been starving cause I hadn't had that nutrition in four decades.  For you, if you can digest the cooked meat, raw meat may seem harder, especially if your internal flora isn't ready because of previous diet.  I guess all you and I got out of this is understanding where each other is coming from, which should probably happen in many cases before people try to help each other.

Haven't tried high meat yet, but one only eats very small amounts of that at a time anyway, right?  Haven't tried marinated, preserved, etc.

    He says cut it in small pieces, to easily choose dose size.  Good, I don't think preserved or marinated is good.  So many people have so many ideas.  I just wanted to know what you thought raw meat was.  Some people buy pre-ground chopped meat from regular supermarkets, marinate the heck out of it with any apple vinegar and salt, and call it a raw diet.

At the moment, I'm not sure if I want to do raw or not.  I haven't been trying THAT for years, but maybe that's not what you were saying--just trying different things for years, which is the case.  I wasn't finding raw impossible when I was doing it recently, just difficult.  Had a bad constipation problem, called AV, he straightened it out.  That did impress me.  I've also been very impressed with some of my raw experiences.  But I was doing some things wrong in trying to go it on my own (using his book), that AV pointed out (his book is often unclear or misleading, it seems to me).  So I think that if I'm going to attempt to go raw for healing, I'd better have a consultation with him.

    I must have misunderstood.  Weeks?  I'm glad he helped you with the c.  I'm glad you're having good experiences.  Life is about change, and he wrote that book a few years ago.  He's still learning too.  As you may have seen, he can have great intuition too.  This other person who's helping you, have you met them in person? Many people find it helpful to their health to have a full consult with him.  I've done it, and I was impressed, for sure.

And I've already invested money in this other program, and a little time, and I want to at least keep my options open with the intuitive, which may not be possible if I go starting and stopping.  Some things about his program are impressing me too.

    I think you're right, or at least that works in my life.  Stick with one way for a while.

Thanks for the feedback and the good wishes.

    You're welcome.