How many carbs to un-keto-adapt?

[SteakNchop]

I accidentally had some sugar. (don't ask how) I am wondering how much it would have had to be to kind of un-keto-adapt?

[KD]

how?

[KD]

I wonder about these things too. I think this is a really good question. I know most days my carb levels are never above that 30g (which I believe is the first number given) but some days I guess i've gone over that pretty much intentionally. I never notice much of a shift, other than if the carbs come from fruits which will cause their own spikes and negative effects so its hard to determine how it effects my energy or whatever just by nature of being over.  Some folks like Hannibal claim you can get into a larger range and still be adapted more or less whereas I think some other folks like Lex might be more 'conservative' on that angle and also I believe suggests the adaption can take more like 18 months anyway! Perhaps I shouldn't speak for other people. I know theres such a thing as 'cycling' (for those that are already adapted I assume) so the change from a single lapse must not be that severe I would assume. Did you fall out of a plane and land in a pile of sugar?

[SteakNchop]

Well, I don't think I had too much. Maybe like 20 or something carbs worth. I doubt I keto-adapted (though not sure if I ever have I guess) but if I did, will I have carb flu all over again? Or should I just go back to stuffing myself with meat and I'll be fine. I'm a little worried that my metabolism might have shifted and if I go straight back to eating like 6000 calories of meat a day I'll gain a bit of weight.

[Hannibal]

Some folks like Hannibal claim you can get into a larger range and still be adapted more or less whereas

Yes.
Ketonuria is different from ketonemia.
 One can eat 100 g of carbs and have ketonemia.

I think some other folks like Lex might be more 'conservative' on that angle and also I believe suggests the adaption can take more like 18 months anyway!

That's definitely not true.
It's about several weeks, like on this pic -
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/501933/brain_fuel.png
Ketones fuel the brain in 3/4, so it's a complete adaptation.

[SteakNchop]

So it is a couple of weeks. Great. I am just wondering if my 20-30 carbs of pure sugar not accompanied by anything would knock me out of a keto typle metabolism.

[RawZi]

    Are babies in ketonemia or ketonuria?  Can we un-ketoadapt using similar amounts and similar types of carbs like them?  Maybe Bear's right, they should be weaned onto chopped meat.  Aajonus had a story of a client whose baby couldn't digest any food, till he gave her chopped meat the first time.  Who's the guy on the other forum whose kids only eat fatty pemmican?  I wish carbohydrates weren't around me so much.  I love fruit, but a very modest portion with some fat and a little (unheated) honey stretches it a long delicious way.  I think I would need a (what I call) real nutritionist to work closely with me for me to fully understand this.  I don't think I've ever been adapted to carbs like other people.  The carbs never gave me good feeling highs or good energy, they just made me nervous or bored or walk or run my ass off and never sit down, but never felt like enough energy.  Do you all get more good than that out of substantial carbs?       

Breastmilk is high in fat.  Newborns (should) spend a lot of time in ketosis, and are therefore ketoadapted.  Being ketoadapted means that babies can more easily turn ketone bodies into acetyl-coA and into myelin.  Ketosis helps babies construct and grow their brains. (Update - looked more into this specifically and it seems that babies are in mild ketosis, but very young babies seem to utilize lactate as a fuel in lieu of glucose also - some of these were rat studies, though - and the utilization of lactate also promotes the same use of acetyl-CoA and gives the neonates some of the advantages of ketoadaptation without being in heavy ketosis.)


We know (more or less) what all this means for epilepsy (and babies!).  We don't precisely know what it means for everyone else, at least brain-wise.  Ketosis occurs with carbohydrate restriction, MCT oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-chain_triglycerides) use, or fasting.  Some people believe that being ketoadapted is the ideal - others will suggest that we can be more relaxed, and eat a mostly low sugar diet with a bit of intermittent fasting thrown in to give us periods of ketosis (though in general I don't recommend intermittent fasting for anyone with an eating disorder).  Ketosis for the body means fat-burning (hip hip hooray!).  For the brain, it means a lower seizure risk and a better environment for neuronal recovery and repair.
Posted by Emily Deans, M.D

[Hannibal]

Are babies in ketonemia or ketonuria? 

You mean 100% breast-fed?
Definitely not ketonuria, as it's rather an unhealthy option resulting in a waste of energy.
Milk has got quite a lot of carbs which are needed so that baby will develop properly.

Do you all get more good than that out of substantial carbs?

       
Definitely more good.
Wihout any carbs for longer than a few days it's a NO-NO for me.

[yuli]

I accidentally had some sugar. (don't ask how) I am wondering how much it would have had to be to kind of un-keto-adapt?

How come you are so worried about about sugar and your weight and stuff at your age? You are 14 right? As long as you eat healthy whole foods at that age you shouldn't worry about anything. If you wanna just eat meat go ahead, but why worry about having some accidental carbs once in a while? It seems illogical, if a few carbs will make you gain weight especially when you're this young.... I have a feeling ZC at that age is asking for trouble, LC would be better, there is a huge difference having a little healthy carb foods and restricting yourself to them completely as you are growing IMO

[Josh]

There's a difference between going in and out of ketosis, and the long term adaption to getting energy from the ketones.

So eating the sugar could bump you out of ketosis (depends how much), but if you've been doing it for a while it won't make you lose all your gains.

If you don't eat any carbs for a couple of days and go for a run or whatever, you'll be back in keto land.

[KD]

There's a difference between going in and out of ketosis, and the long term adaption to getting energy from the ketones.

I was probably inaccurately 'quoting' lex but yeah that was more of what I was saying. thanks

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From what I gather. virtually all people on all diets (including ZC) I am sure will cheat, the degree of how this effects the short term or long term consequences to this process - like most aspects of health - I imagine is little if at all important to the big picture of taking good care of yourself


in general and with the other threads, I think peoples concern is dead on. Its good that you are asking these questions and obviously very smart and motivated, but do you really think a ZC diet is going to give you some kind of edge or necessary function over a diet that includes a few plants and other foods? I mean if your folks arn't giving you a hard time about raw meat, perhaps choosing some middle ground might be the smartest choice overall rather than some scientific solution. Honestly If I was your age, i wouldn't want to be doing a diet that had so many unknowns in regards to my long term health. I mean at least with RPD one can assume perhaps that humans once ate similarly, but even then you don't know 100% if its the best for all people, adolescents etc...due to a variety of factors that might not even be nutritional or quantifiable.

[SteakNchop]

I was probably inaccurately 'quoting' lex but yeah that was more of what I was saying. thanks

---

From what I gather. virtually all people on all diets (including ZC) I am sure will cheat, the degree of how this effects the short term or long term consequences to this process - like most aspects of health - I imagine is little if at all important to the big picture of taking good care of yourself


in general and with the other threads, I think peoples concern is dead on. Its good that you are asking these questions and obviously very smart and motivated, but do you really think a ZC diet is going to give you some kind of edge or necessary function over a diet that includes a few plants and other foods? I mean if your folks arn't giving you a hard time about raw meat, perhaps choosing some middle ground might be the smartest choice overall rather than some scientific solution. Honestly If I was your age, i wouldn't want to be doing a diet that had so many unknowns in regards to my long term health. I mean at least with RPD one can assume perhaps that humans once ate similarly, but even then you don't know 100% if its the best for all people, adolescents etc...due to a variety of factors that might not even be nutritional or quantifiable.

Yes, I do believe ZC will give me an advantage.

[yuli]

Yes, I do believe ZC will give me an advantage.

OK but why? I can see why you may have advantage over someone who consumes a large amount of carbs, but when compared to someone that just eats a small or average amount, how would you explain the advantage? I am curious.

I can say why eating at least a few carbs can give me an advantage to eating none (I am not sure I want to regurgitate it here as its been discussed so much it will make us regurgitate ), but give some evidence for otherwise.

If you are going to prove something to your parents you can't say you believe and therefore it is so and expect them to agree.

PS. Yes people who are suffering from obesity and other serious issues will have an advantage with zero carb, but thats being used as a treatment not a way of life. And yes there are a few people that cannot tolerate carbs but that is a rare condition and usually brought on by previous damage through bad diet.

[SteakNchop]

OK but why? I can see why you may have advantage over someone who consumes a large amount of carbs, but when compared to someone that just eats a small or average amount, how would you explain the advantage? I am curious.

I can say why eating at least a few carbs can give me an advantage to eating none (I am not sure I want to regurgitate it here as its been discussed so much it will make us regurgitate ), but give some evidence for otherwise.

If you are going to prove something to your parents you can't say you believe and therefore it is so and expect them to agree.

PS. Yes people who are suffering from obesity and other serious issues will have an advantage with zero carb, but thats being used as a treatment not a way of life. And yes there are a few people that cannot tolerate carbs but that is a rare condition and usually brought on by previous damage through bad diet.

I feel I perform better athletically on a ZC diet. I probably could tolerate some carbs, though I really would rather just eat meat anyway.

[KD]

right, I mean you are going to have people against ZC philosophically in general. but just saying for you age and situation and stuff, I would go with the surer bet. When you are 30 if you stay on this path you won't be sitting around regretting a few cranberries believe me.

[sabertooth]

I have my little badly weened out bits of raw meat , fat, and berries and am supplamenting with a home made formula. I don't think that you should ween directly into keto. I am attempting to keep the food intake to equal a similar carb to fat ration of breast milk , perhaps a little more raw protein. From what I can tell it works wonderfully and if I am lucky perhaps one day I can write a book about what I am doing.

I am zero to low carb because of my past health history, but in general my people tolerate carbs well and I believe if I just provide my children with raw fats and protein while strictly limiting processed foods as well as some other protocol, then I believe they will be able to thrive wither or not they go ketogenic or not.

If you are going through adaption you should be able to taste it and smell it in your urine. I had a really strong taste in my throat that went away after a few weeks when I became adapted. I have never left ket yet so I am not sure of what to expect if I were to eat a bunch of carbs.

[SteakNchop]

right, I mean you are going to have people against ZC philosophically in general. but just saying for you age and situation and stuff, I would go with the surer bet. When you are 30 if you stay on this path you won't be sitting around regretting a few cranberries believe me.

Believe me. Many people are against diets containing meat let alone an all meat diet. Also, what exactly do you mean by the "when you are 30?" One of the biggest problems really is it kind of brought back the taste for sweet. Not the "few cranberries" I consumed.

[KD]

Believe me. Many people are against diets containing meat let alone an all meat diet. Also, what exactly do you mean by the "when you are 30?" One of the biggest problems really is it kind of brought back the taste for sweet. Not the "few cranberries" I consumed.

yeah, I was speaking about people here too. I have no idea whether a purely ZC diet is healthy or not, but I have an inclination to believe if you have no pre-existing health issues you could probably see some great health in a variety of permutations, so perhaps how you define what is the best is not necessary or necessarily so. When you are older, maybe you'll have more perspective on what is best - is what I am saying and likely won't sweat any small stuff. As for cravings, i don't know what to say about that, isn't a problem for me, but I did go through alot of restrictive approaches before doing meat, so havn't eaten SWD foods really in many years. The main thing with health for me is consistency, if you have no one supporting you or making your life a paint that its going to be hard to stay consistent. Discipline over a few addictions seems like the easier route to constant fighting with folks or whatever. Whether they accept a raw meat diet with a little bit of carbs either...yeah I dunno, still have to strike the right balance.

[SteakNchop]

yeah, I was speaking about people here too. I have no idea whether a purely ZC diet is healthy or not, but I have an inclination to believe if you have no pre-existing health issues you could probably see some great health in a variety of permutations, so perhaps how you define what is the best is not necessary or necessarily so. When you are older, maybe you'll have more perspective on what is best - is what I am saying and likely won't sweat any small stuff. As for cravings, i don't know what to say about that, isn't a problem for me, but I did go through alot of restrictive approaches before doing meat, so havn't eaten SWD foods really in many years. The main thing with health for me is consistency, if you have no one supporting you or making your life a paint that its going to be hard to stay consistent. Discipline over a few addictions seems like the easier route to constant fighting with folks or whatever. Whether they accept a raw meat diet with a little bit of carbs either...yeah I dunno, still have to strike the right balance.

I see. I don't get cravings or anything, but let's say someone placed a nice big cheesecake in front of me and a nice big steak. Before I accidentally consumed some sugar, if health was a non-factor, I would actually rather have the steak. Now, maybe not so much. I did notice one thing when I went ZC, though. I had an ingrown toenail, looked really gross- puss coming out, large scab, painful wearing vibrams, etc. Went away right when I started eating just meat.

[TrueCarnivore]

I would think completely going without carbohydrates at 14 would be just fine. Why does one really need sugar anyway? All it does is make things easier, but isn't necessary.

At 23, being ZC for 3 months now, I would go back to my childhood years and GLADLY change to a diet without carbohydrates. The benefits of optimized human growth hormone during that growing period would have been very interesting, and astounding to experience. A childhood without chronically high insulin I'm betting would have made the pubescent period much easier to stomach. Under 30g a day would do just fine, but the benefits of full fat-adaptation wouldn't be experienced.

And IMO, ZC has great advantages over 30g of sugar a day. A completely clear mind not being drunk off glucose, a stable sense of well-being, sharper intellect. A higher state of existence that I lose with any ingestion of glucose.

Also, per the mentioning of better athletic ability... I attest to this as well. I perform better zc. Sprints, handstands, agility, dexterity.. especially 15 or so hrs fasted in conjunction.

[Hannibal]

PS. Yes people who are suffering from obesity and other serious issues will have an advantage with zero carb, but thats being used as a treatment not a way of life. And yes there are a few people that cannot tolerate carbs but that is a rare condition and usually brought on by previous damage through bad diet.

Not eating any carbs is not helpful in reducing adipose tissue in obese people.
It detoriorates the metabolism of fatty acids and causes an excessive breakdown of muscle proteins (branch-chain amino acids are broken down so that carbohydrate sceletons can be used for the production of glucose).
People who want to lose weight will be better-off if they eat 50-70 grams of carbs a day.

[miles]

? afaik If you eat 50-70g carbs, it just means you don't use fat until you've used that up. afaik There's no excessive breakdown of muscle tissues, that's why you use the ketones to spare muscle protein, and then you replace the muscle you do use when you next eat meat.

[Hannibal]

@miles
You are obviously wrong.
50-70 g of glucose is the minimum - if you eat less that doesn't mean that you'll use ketones in liue of glucose; the branch chain amino acids will be broken down and so on.
Ketones cannot fuel the cells witout mitochondria, cannot fuel high-intensity anaerobic exercises. Only glucose can.
If you eat 50-70 g of glucose you'll use a plethora of ketones to fuel the cells that can be fueled this way.
But it's a minimum. For a young man who is physically and metally active the minimum is at 100 g, more or less.

[KD]

@miles
You are obviously wrong.
50-70 g of glucose is the minimum - if you eat less that doesn't mean that you'll use ketones in liue of glucose; the branch chain amino acids will be broken down and so on.
Ketones cannot fuel the cells witout mitochondria, cannot fuel high-intensity anaerobic exercises. Only glucose can.
If you eat 50-70 g of glucose you'll use a plethora of ketones to fuel the cells that can be fueled this way.
But it's a minimum. For a young man who is physically and metally active the minimum is at 100 g, more or less.

Hannibal, since you've said a number of things like this in the past and i've never understood it myself, can you expand on this if you get a chance? I'm not questioning your recommendation but I don't quite understand what process is going on with longer term total ZC folk - in terms of mental and physical stuff - going on the small amounts of glucose produces through protein etc...

Also, since I know some days you do just animal foods are your recommending 50-70 g more or less daily? or average? or just a few days a week?

[Hannibal]

Hannibal, since you've said a number of things like this in the past and i've never understood it myself

What haven't you understood? Have I said something unclearly?

can you expand on this if you get a chance? I'm not questioning your recommendation but I don't quite understand what process is going on with longer term total ZC folk - in terms of mental and physical stuff - going on the small amounts of glucose produces through protein etc...

What do you mean? Precisely.

Also, since I know some days you do just animal foods are your recommending 50-70 g more or less daily? or average? or just a few days a week?

Yes, daily. But as I said it's a minimum. For me it's too little.