Possible high-meat poisoning/questions

[TylerDurden]

sheesh. how can you miss the general point again here, of course one should discern between good and bad, but at the end of the day you can't discount whole practices just because they seem not the most pleasurable between doing something and doing nothing.

my whole point was saying that the acquire taste is reflected in the changeover of bacteria, and prior to that it will likely taste bad. so lacking any experience it will likely taste bad, and not overcoming that intellectually will avoid that change.

So basically when I said 'defacto', the state of waiting till high meat tasted good  - and not overriding through intellect - would generally for most people remove them from the process entirely. Most people here would say to their detriment, but even if that cannot be proven, the issue is the scorning of the abilities of the brain over the senses here is obviously incorrect. This is not unique to high meats, or general nutrition, but certainly never to medicine for unwell contemporary peoples when even animals seek out such things in lieu of their most pleasurable foods.

   Well, one could argue that if one is eating rawpalaeo from birth, and if one had a mother who was rawpalaeo during pregnancy(what a mother eats during pregnancy influences  child's tastes after birth), that there would be no need to acclimatise to "high-meats" as they would be used to their taste already from day 1. I recall, Instincto also points out that our tastes/instincts are completely fouled up as a result of past SMD diets, and that only days/months/years of eating raw and palaeo can help gradually bring back the right instincts as part of normal life.

[KD]

  Well, one could argue that if one is eating rawpalaeo from birth, and if one had a mother who was rawpalaeo during pregnancy(what a mother eats during pregnancy influences  child's tastes after birth), that there would be no need to acclimatise to "high-meats" as they would be used to their taste already from day 1. I recall, Instincto also points out that our tastes/instincts are completely fouled up as a result of past SMD diets, and that only days/months/years of eating raw and palaeo can help gradually bring back the right instincts as part of normal life.

Yeah, thats precisely the point, which is why when people like sabertooth are sharing their experiences on how the high meats have helped reverse some of the modern damages of society. Again this doesn't prove the efficacy or that they are absolutely safe, but it insinuates that the high meat is a tool to go from one state to another that might not be able to be achieved otherwise and in some cases indeed might be crucial for success/digestion of raw foods etc..

Therefore if someone is in a certain state they shouldn't ignore opportunities to get better based on constructs to how things taste, they go with the experience of others - in this case, precisely because their desires are distorted. much with general nutrition, modes of activity, and other issues we as nature-removed and unhealthy peoples have to figure out.

at a certain point I might believe the possibility of ones instincts in that someone might even be so ill that they crave high meats (i suppose) like dirt or herbal plants over not regularly eaten things, but if high-meats take 4-12 weeks to mature, the decision is always going to have to be intellectual and anticipatory.

[TylerDurden]

at a certain point I might believe the possibility of ones instincts in that someone might even be so ill that they crave high meats (i suppose) like dirt or herbal plants over not regularly eaten things, but if high-meats take 4-12 weeks to mature, the decision is always going to have to be intellectual and anticipatory.

Aged meats could have been eaten without preparing them as such. There is after all a popular "scavenger" theory related to human evolution that claims that humans hardly hunted at all, but just waited for days until top predators had finished eating most of a carcass and then just ate the rotting remains such as brains, marrow and anything else left over.

[KD]

Aged meats could have been eaten without preparing them as such. There is after all a popular "scavenger" theory related to human evolution that claims that humans hardly hunted at all, but just waited for days until top predators had finished eating most of a carcass and then just ate the rotting remains such as brains, marrow and anything else left over.

yeah, I ascribe to that theory, but we arn't talking about the ancient practices of peoples but whether or not to discount the typical AV style high meat practices based on taste or appeal alone for all people right now.

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.

[TylerDurden]

yeah, I ascribe to that theory, but we arn't talking about the ancient practices of peoples but whether or not to discount the typical AV style high meat practices based on taste or appeal alone for all people right now.

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.

It's not a yes or no deal, it's a grey area. Once someone gets the usual taste-change after c.8-12 months of going rawpalaeo, one starts getting more natural instincts re foods and finds cooked foods more distasteful etc.

[raw-al]

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?


this is a yes or no question

(applied to people sitting around their houses reading the forum/taken medications/antibiotics/lived on cooked foods ~20 years etc..)
if the answer is no in any cases, I don't understand how most of the things you are saying disagree.

Qualified yes.
Prior to the modern age when we could simply go to the store and get some condiment from the other side of the world and people started distributing recipes re cooked food, there are theories that indeed taste was the determining reasoning for eating food. Ayurveda says that we naturally hunger for certain foods because of the effect (nutrition) that it contains that our body recognizes that we need.

Children will hunger for sweet tastes because sweet is required for them to grow. Their (our) brains are surrounded by a sweet fatty fluid and the brain needs this to conduct the awesome amount of growth in the early years.

Anyone wo has been around pregnant women will recognize the weird food requests that they come out with. This is their body's way of asking for nutrients that it has known in the past were contained in certain foods.

Now for the qualified part. Obviously if a child tastes the super sweet tastes of candy it is not wise to overfeed them this stuff but this is not because the sweet is bad but because we have learned how to make foods that fool our age old systems of defence. By cooking and refining we have disturbed that natural nutritional sorting out system that is part of our body's immune system if you will.

[KD]

It's not a yes or no deal, it's a grey area. Once someone gets the usual taste-change after c.8-12 months of going rawpalaeo, one starts getting more natural instincts re foods and finds cooked foods more distasteful etc.

Qualified yes.

Now for the qualified part. Obviously if a child tastes the super sweet tastes of candy it is not wise to overfeed them this stuff but this is not because the sweet is bad but because we have learned how to make foods that fool our age old systems of defence. By cooking and refining we have disturbed that natural nutritional sorting out system that is part of our body's immune system if you will.

ok, so back on planet earth, since personally I am even more confused now going by the previous and past discussions:

for people viewing this topic who actually might want to learn something you would then recommend that they abstain from ANY intentionally made 'high' meats (properly done) - NOT expired/improperly aged or aired meats - if they don't taste as/more appealing than fresh meat? that is what you are saying?

This is 100% the opposite of my impressions from past discussions here, my own experience as well as writings and comments from mr. A himself on societal peoples expected reactions and benefits regardless. So I assume more than myself is confused.

[ForTheHunt]

Wow.. I can just end this thread by saying; It was the mold.

If your meat is moldy something went wrong. Never ever eat any mold. It has shitloads of mycotoxins wich will cause the symptoms you experienced.

The meat is supposed to be nice and sludgy.

[raw-al]

How do you explain people eating mouldy cheese?

[TylerDurden]

I always judge when "high-meat" is properly ripening by how much the fungus-threads have developed on the aging raw meat. Never had a problem with them.

[Stancel]

some molds are "edible" and used in fermentation for example, Aspergillus oryzae used to make miso, soy sauce and sake, but Aspergillus flavus produces aflatoxin. It's not...either all mold is safe or all mold is deadly.

Beats me how paleo peoples (or people before microbiology) could know how to prevent toxic molds. Maybe the traditions they developed over time.

[raw-al]

There are some moulds that may have medicinal properties and some have mood/consciousness altering properties.

ie. ergot which is the basis of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide  - LSD

[yuli]

Beats me how paleo peoples (or people before microbiology) could know how to prevent toxic molds. Maybe the traditions they developed over time.

Dunno but they probably tried different ways of storing the meat and then eating it. Could be they figured out specific things like putting it somewhere dark, or dry, or I even heard that this is how spices were "invented" as they used herbs on the meat to help it age properly or last longer.

As for different kinds of molds I think its possible some are poisonous and some not. I never had moldy meat but there were some fruits and veggies that had molded and I was pretty disgusted by the smell and feel of that mold. I wonder what would happen if I ate the moldy fruits and veggies? anyone tried that?

I have eaten plenty of moldy cheeses, the one with all the blue mold too, and didn't feel problems from it. But then again the cheese mold smells ok to me and even with the mold on it the cheese doesn't look like its decomposing or turning into slime. Its the slime that gets me really, for some reason I view development of slime that its turned into something noxious not to be eaten. Of course it may be due to my own upbringing.

Then again I had a friend that would come over and we have this stinky cheese in our fridge, lol he would run out of the kitchen when I opened the bag with that cheese, saying it smelled like a mans old sweaty socks    So it may very likely be just our upbringing.

There are some moulds that may have medicinal properties and some have mood/consciousness altering properties.
ie. ergot which is the basis of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide  - LSD

Yeah its thanks to molds a lot of neat things like that were discovered! I have always had fear, respect and curiosity about fungi and molds, probably the ancient people did too, and experimented with them greatly. Likely a few got really sick during their experimentations. 

...The meat is supposed to be nice and sludgy.

Why is sludge considered better then mold? Is that just for meat? (I have conditioned myself to think most mold is ok and sludge/slime is bad)...

Has anyone analyzed wet-made high meat? How does it compare to lets say very moldy old cheese? What kinda "critters" are in it by the time high meat is very slimy and high?

Is the taste or appeal of a food or practice the determining factor in whether it is heathy or needed?

The age old question! lol
The answer I think is we don't know, considering modern people today, as ancient people in the wild had so MUCH different lives, they would also need to eat anything they can to survive by the way and probably accustomed themselves to eat things that they wouldn't if they didn't have to (anyone thought of that, survival, when you're fighting for survival taste gets thrown out the window at times)...
Modern people have a different difficulty as now we have a choice, sigh...
Sometimes we can learn to recognize something is healthy and sometimes not....my taste-sense seems to recognize most fermented smelling and tasting foods as a good tonic for my stomach, ie it feels good right after being eaten even if it tastes a little funky.
To someone like my friend, he'll run away from any aged cheese or cabbage and especially from aged raw meats.
Today it greatly depends on our own conditioning which we have to direct in the right direction, not so easy to do of course...

I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.

[goodsamaritan]

I think it is high time for a SHOW OF PICTURES.

You guys who are experts at high meat making should take pics so we can discuss PICTURES.

[raw-al]

As for different kinds of molds I think its possible some are poisonous and some not. I never had moldy meat but there were some fruits and veggies that had molded and I was pretty disgusted by the smell and feel of that mold. I wonder what would happen if I ate the moldy fruits and veggies? anyone tried that?

Mouldy raspberries, blueberries. Lots of them. Possibly some things are not a good idea.

I remember a video that was doing the rounds about a certain type of fruit in Africa that the wild animals would eat when it became over ripe and presumably turned alcoholic or maybe it was a mould. The wild animals would gather around the trees and eat as much as they could stand, get stupid drunk, do it agin and then that was it till next year.

[raw-al]

I think it is high time for a SHOW OF PICTURES.

You guys who are experts at high meat making should take pics so we can discuss PICTURES.

Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.

[KD]

my taste-sense seems to recognize most fermented smelling and tasting foods as a good tonic for my stomach, ie it feels good right after being eaten even if it tastes a little funky.


I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.

right, I knew I had you all figured out j/k

I think that sounds wise. just recently I tried to make some that I knew by the smell there was something off within 1 week, so sense and experience is helpful in knowing how to distinguish good or bad, but the results will generally still be unfomfortable and smelly as I tried to compare to oysters or chicken, but exponential based on bacteria. I'm sure you can find people who find the smell of raw chicken or cheese to not be appealing..we are talking degrees and degrees past.

I might add in addition what I was pointing out, anything fermented or processed in any other way by a person is usually considered by the same mindset to be impossibly healthy either and is seen as the reverse of the above paradigm, reflecting some kind of societal distortion on our tastes. The idea of medicinally properties of food itself being considered a falsity as specific foods do not in themselves heal but just the removal from toxic foods. (ok whatever). Fermented and moldy foods are considered the worst offenders to hygienists, often even over neolithic or modern foods themselves, including plants like sauerkraut that are not considered dangerous often.

---


'high time' heh, good one GS. I have a few somewhere that I can't locate but I posted a few in this thread and I think Hannibal too.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/msg36840/#msg36840

[raw-al]

I would feel totally ok to try high meat if it was made for me by someone who knows what to do exactly, and can tell me that yes this high meat tastes ok and safe to try. As I have not conditioned myself with rotten meats but rotten milk and cheese I can tell is ok when its ok.

Yuli, it's so easy to make. It's easier than making yogurt, kefir, cheese. Add nothing, mix nothing. Just cut up the meat in whatever size you want, marble sized in the beginning, put it in a jar, max 1/2 full, put a cover on it, put it in the fridge. Close the fridge door the same way you always do. Then wait 3 days. Then take it out of the fridge, take it out of the house, put a clothes pin over your nose, open the cover, let it air for a minute, waving it around to let it air better. Then close it and put it back in the fridge. Wait another three days and so on.

After 30 days or so, change the routine and instead of airing it, put a fork inside grab a chunk and eat it. Don't forget the clothespin on the proboscis.  If you are really grossed out at the thought, chase it with a muffin or whiskey or whatever. Don't chase it with lemon or lime as it will kill the bacteria.

Or if you do insist on using lemon or lime like my GF, don't swallow.

Better still get some guy to air it for ya. We can barely smell feces. 

[sabertooth]

Av talked of mold and bacteria being in highmeat. so even he isn't too concerned about categorizing all the strains of organisms that grow on his high meat.

 The whole question has to be yes or no, because someone choosing to try it out must say yes I agree based on what these people here say about the benefits of highmeat and based on their testimony I will must decide yes or no. Its a very grey area indeed.

For us who are on the high meat bandwagon, its hard to get some people to realize that even if the meat isn't rotten in some clinical fashion and is composed of x y z strains of bacteria, it is still safe, because we don't really know ourselves what people put into their jars or what their digestive system can handle based on what we are told. It takes a leap of faith, and even Av himself had to take that plunge into the danger zone.

[yuli]

Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.

ROFL! I imagined a paleo-modernized future, where you have little jars of different high meats in the supermarket, labeled with dates, bacteria & mold types with effect (fancy names like "Calm", "Invigorate", "Seduction", like you have for the teas now, aha ha ha)...and they have the scrtch and sniff pads on the labels! Oh joy!

Mouldy raspberries, blueberries. Lots of them. .....

And ... does it compare to high meat in effects?

I remember a video that was doing the rounds about a certain type of fruit in Africa that the wild animals would eat when it became over ripe and presumably turned alcoholic or maybe it was a mould. The wild animals would gather around the trees and eat as much as they could stand, get stupid drunk, do it agin and then that was it till next year.

Yes there are some you can find on youtube...one with elephants and giraffes and mongooses in the wild drunk on seasonal rotting fruit.
The other has these monkeys that live beside a small resort and constantly steal peoples drinks and get totally shitfaced, thats a very funny video I gotta find that, they look so human there...

right, I knew I had you all figured out...

Really let me know cause I haven't been able to do that yet, but I try

@raw-al....

I have left meat in glass jars for a week, but thats not long enough and the jars were half closed with tin foil...I felt that I had to let the meat "breathe"    If I try it should I do it with
-- grassfed-finished VERY lean beef - stew chunks size
-- semi-fatty grassfed-finished beef ground
-- hay + grain supllemented bison, elk or deer?
which one of those should I do?....I don't want to make any organs or chickens high yet...eeeek

When I try it I wouldn't want to plug my nose though, I want to look death in the face when I see it. I'll probably have a jar of raw honey and spoon ready for the aftermath  

@sabertooth

right its all about taking risks, when we started eating raw meat we accepted a certain risk (way overblown of course)...there is a tiny chance you eat some infected raw meat and oops, your body happens to not be able to fight it very well, and ta da you get sick....this can also happen with any food, you can also get struck by lightning....these are all different levels of risks but are worth taking....I take the risk of walking on the street in the city because I enjoy it, there is a risk I'll get hit by a car...happened to two people I knew and one of them died due to it...but I still walk on the street. Even if one person gets sick, we can't make people who recommend high meats responsible, many people have benefits and don't get sick...its a specific process, if someone fucks it up because they didn't know any better, had bad meat to begin with, has some physical handicap its still not the fault of those people who use high meat for its benefits and are very much alive and healthy. I guess that sounds kind of mean, but there are people that died from eating any meat, do we not recommend eating meat because of this? Well some people do but they are clearly stupid.

[Dima]

Even if one person gets sick, we can't make people who recommend high meats responsible, many people have benefits and don't get sick...its a specific process, if someone fucks it up because they didn't know any better, had bad meat to begin with, has some physical handicap its still not the fault of those people who use high meat for its benefits and are very much alive and healthy. I guess that sounds kind of mean, but there are people that died from eating any meat, do we not recommend eating meat because of this? Well some people do but they are clearly stupid.

If that's directed at me, I'm certainly not holding anyone responsible. I believe in personal responsibility. My intention for starting this thread was to learn and to share. I am not out to give high-meat a bad rap. I hope that was clear from my previous messages.

Go for the high-meat, Yuli, I am very much looking forward to the high-meat VS LSD comparison 

[yuli]

If that's directed at me, I'm certainly not holding anyone responsible. I believe in personal responsibility. My intention for starting this thread was to learn and to share. I am not out to give high-meat a bad rap. I hope that was clear from my previous messages.

Go for the high-meat, Yuli, I am very much looking forward to the high-meat VS LSD comparison 

Not at all directed at you, it was directed at how people in society commonly freak out about germs ect. in the health industry, the media etc And perhaps was directed due to Donrad being paranoid, nothing is 100% safe, we can't live in bubbles. And it is in fact known that underexposure to germs makes us very weak. As much as over-exposure to the wrong ones can make us sick, I guess you can have too much of a good thing...

Yes I will try some high meat, I know its going to taste like shit but I am curious to the effects, maybe I'll be surprised and find it to taste a very old cheese, right  , I have to at least try it to get a real sense of the whole subject....

[goodsamaritan]

Make them scratch 'n sniff for the full effect.

We can't transmit smell over this forum yet. 
So we will have to try PHOTOS.

[Nation]

I will never eat high meat.

[laterade]

I will never eat high meat.

Never say never!


As far as the pictures go... I have some high meat that looks almost exactly the same as when I put it in there 2 months ago.
I have only been opening it once a week, so that is probably why.