Anyone here doing the wai diet?

[formerfruitarian]

Hey so you might be able to figure out my history by looking at my username. Anyways after that I tried the paleo diet and it didnt work great but it definately had its benefits. To be honest I kind of want to quit purely out of the fact that I am an animal lover but I realize that fruitarianism/veganism does not work! Anyway I was wondering if you had any luck on the raw wai diet? I kind of want to eat my calories like 80-85% raw fruit, 5-10% raw veges and 10% raw fish or possibly red meat. Or I could do like every 3-5 days all fruit and veges and then one day of all meat/fish. Just would like some input or experience.

[TylerDurden]

Well, most people here see the Wai Diet as a transitionary diet between raw vegan and rawpalaeo. Most people generally find it much more successful re health-improvement than the raw vegan/fruitarian diets due to the extra raw animal foods, though not as effective as rawpaleodiet, according to reports.  I would recommend adding a combination of raw fish and raw meats for the raw animal food part of your diet, if you decide to do the Wai Diet.


Here are some useful links to the Wai site:-

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/wai-dieters/useful-anti-cookinganti-palaeo-studies/

[PaleoPhil]

Well, most people here see the Wai Diet as a transitionary diet between raw vegan and rawpalaeo. ...

This raises some good questions, Tyler. Are you saying that Wai is not truly raw Paleo, presumably because it apparently discourages consumption of some meats that Paleo does not and apparently recommends sugar as an option (http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-diet.html)? If that's the case, then does it belong in the raw Paleo section of the forum? Perhaps it should go into a raw-near-Paleo section or a Wai Diet section of its own?

[TylerDurden]

This raises some good questions, Tyler. Are you saying that Wai is not truly raw Paleo, presumably because it apparently discourages consumption of some meats that Paleo does not and apparently recommends sugar as an option (http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-diet.html)? If that's the case, then does it belong in the raw Paleo section of the forum? Perhaps it should go into a raw-near-Paleo section or a Wai Diet section of its own?

  No, "palaeo" is defined by what is not "palaeo", rather than what is palaeo(ie " no grains, no dairy etc;") - so wai is indeed "palaeo".

I had no idea Wai recommended sugar? Where does Wai say this?  As for the issue of what Wai recommends, I simply meant that it didn't include raw meats like almost all other palaeo themed diets, and many RVAFers find it more difficult to have a RVAF which excludes raw meats , with just raw seafood as an alternative.

[kurite]

  No, "palaeo" is defined by what is not "palaeo", rather than what is palaeo(ie " no grains, no dairy etc;") - so wai is indeed "palaeo".

I had no idea Wai recommended sugar? Where does Wai say this?  As for the issue of what Wai recommends, I simply meant that it didn't include raw meats like almost all other palaeo themed diets, and many RVAFers find it more difficult to have a RVAF which excludes raw meats , with just raw seafood as an alternative.

"The structure of sugars doesn’t change that quickly when heated, that’s why it’s fine to eat table sugar (pure sucrose = glucose + fructose)."

[PaleoPhil]

 No, "palaeo" is defined by what is not "palaeo", rather than what is palaeo(ie " no grains, no dairy etc;") - so wai is indeed "palaeo".

I mentioned sugar. Isn't sugar "not Paleo"?

I had no idea Wai recommended sugar?

Shouldn't you examine the Wai diet before you conclude that it is "Paleo"?

Where does Wai say this?

At the link I provided sugar is listed as an optional food. Granted, it's optional, but to say anything positive about refined sucrose is pretty far from a Paleo perspective. What next, Wonder Bread is optional? I read one Wai dieter claim that Wai himself eats sugar and Kurite seems to be confirming (correct me if I'm wrong) that sugar is regarded as OK in the Wai diet.

Tyler, what do you think of these quotes from Wai? -

"'Empty calories'
One of the most prominent accusations heard, is that of sugar being 'just empty calories'. This refers to the fact that table sugar has been stripped of anything else than just the basic molecules glucose and fructose. Although table sugar is (almost) devoid of any micronutrients, it is still a macronutrient, a useful source of energy. If daily requirements of micronutrients are met, there is therefore no objection to the use of sucrose in order to meet daily macronutrient requirements.

Types of sugar
Different types of table sugar exist, but we recommend the use of white refined sugar, because most of the impurities (possible sources of toxic substances) have been removed.

Conclusion
Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements.

(Source: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-sugar.html)"

"Table sugar is an excellent source of extra energy, as long as it isn’t taken at the expense of necessary vitamins and minerals. As a guideline: maximally 50% of the total energy intake." (http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/thewaidiet.pdf)

As for the issue of what Wai recommends, I simply meant that it didn't include raw meats like almost all other palaeo themed diets, and many RVAFers find it more difficult to have a RVAF which excludes raw meats , with just raw seafood as an alternative.

I know, and my question was how is the discouraging of meat intake considered Paleo? Encouraging sugar and discouraging meats would be about as anti-Paleo as one could get if they weren't modified with the "optional" label.

Also, Wai ranks the "protein quality" of foods based solely on the ratio of cystine plus methionine to total protein content, which results in his ranking Brazil nuts and rolled oats well above beef, chicken and pork (http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm). He also writes, "Even consuming (the right-) fruits only, you will absorb all protein you need." Is this "Paleo" in your view?

From this line of thinking of Wai's, there develops quotes from his followers like this one: "Brazil nuts have better protein quality than any animal food...." http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1293. Aren't nuts generally regarded as a second-rate food in this forum? Another result is that the animal food section of the Wai forum is dominated by discussion of egg yolks and fish http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=67a4fd2f7a2718ea053fdc53182137e9 rather than meats, so Wai's followers apparently take his recommendations and warnings seriously.

The Wai diet is clearly another raw alternative diet, but is it really "Paleo" by your definition?

Is anyone here following a Wai diet?

[TylerDurden]

You're exaggerating just a bit, PP. For one thing, raw cane sugar is sort of palaeo. I mean, it is conceivable that it was consumed in palaeo times. OK, it is not palaeo according to mainstream Cordain-inspired palaeo, but neither is  an all-meat palaeodiet either, as mainstream palaeo involves c. 65 percent animal foods and c.35 percent plant foods. One has to be flexible.


I know of no specific Wai dieters, but SD seems to be the only notable high-raw plant food, low raw animal food rawpaleodieter.

[PaleoPhil]

You're exaggerating just a bit, PP. For one thing, raw cane sugar is sort of palaeo.

What did I exaggerate? I asked questions without taking a firm position myself.

I mean, it is conceivable that it was consumed in palaeo times. OK, it is not palaeo according to mainstream Cordain-inspired palaeo, but neither is  an all-meat palaeodiet either, as mainstream palaeo involves c. 65 percent animal foods and c.35 percent plant foods. One has to be flexible.

I'm asking you if the refined table sugar that Wai advocates (at levels up to 50% of calories) and apparently eats is "Paleo" by your definition. Not Cordain's or mine. I will go along with whatever definition of Paleo you choose for the purposes of discussion in this thread. Here's what the definition of "raw Paleo" in the RPD site article says:

... a raw, palaeolithic diet is really more defined by what it doesn’t allow than what it permits. So, an RPD(Raw Palaeolithic Diet) forbids the consumption of Neolithic foods such as legumes,dairy or grains, whether raw or cooked. It also forbids the consumption of all cooked or processed foods.

Foods allowed/included on a raw, palaeolithic diet include raw muscle-meats, raw organ-meats, raw aged(ie “rotting”) meat,raw fruits, raw vegetables, raw nuts, raw fungi,  raw honey and  raw eggs. Such foods are invariably expected to be of high quality(eg:- raw meat must come from animals raised on organic/free-range status or come from wild animals). (http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/what-exactly-is-a-raw-palaeolithic-diet/)

Is that definition of raw Paleo correct in your view and does refined sugar or rolled oats fit within that definition?

I know of no specific Wai dieters, but SD seems to be the only notable high-raw plant food, low raw animal food rawpaleodieter.

If Wai is a raw Paleo diet, I wonder why we neither you nor I know of a single Wai dieter here (I think GS was a Wai dieter in the past, but not currently)? If we have any here I hope they will speak up so we perhaps might learn the reason why.

[TylerDurden]

The whole point of the Wai Diet forum or the Primal Diet forum or similiar  is simply to include all possible RVAF diet views. True, part of the reason is to gradually invite such to become more rawpalaeo, but we allow anomalies here and there so as to have the whole spectrum. The point is that some Wai Dieters might view unrefined raw cane-sugar as being OK, so that would be part of rawpaleodiet purview. So Wai might go to extremes re refined sugar, but so do Aajonus and Weston-Price in other respects.

[PaleoPhil]

That's fine and I will live with whatever you decide. I don't want to seem difficult. I would like direct answers to my questions.

[kurite]

I always though of this site to be a RAF diet because we have the primal as well as a raw weston price diet, which isn't really even a real thing. Also just wondering does anyone know if you can literally just drink plane freshly squeezed cane juice? I figure its not totally paleo because its juiced but Ive chewed on some plane sugar cane before and all you get from it is the sweet juice so its kinda paleo.

[Stancel]

If cane sugar is used at all, I think it should be rapadura "whole" cane sugar which is the healthiest.
But for some reason I believe sucrose must be worse than other sugars. I guess because it's used in all the sweets we know to be unhealthy. I did read something about bacteria in the mouth more effectively feeding on sucrose, thus causing more tooth decay.

[eveheart]

does anyone know if you can literally just drink plane freshly squeezed cane juice?

Yes, you can squeeze out the juice from sugar cane stalks, and it is a refreshing drink. It has a taste more like a sweet tropical juice, not just a glass of sugar water. There are juicers made for this purpose. Or, as mentioned, you can express the juice by chewing on the stalk.

Just wanted to mention, sugar cane (the plant that looks like a tall corn stalk) is not the same as cane sugar (the dehydrated and refined residue of the juice from the sugar cane stalk).

[PaleoPhil]

So far no one here has admitted to currently following a Wai diet (the only person who reported doing Wai and might still be doing it that I'm aware of is ryanwang, who hasn't been active since March). Given that, why do we have a subsection devoted to it in the raw Paleo section of the forum? If anyone at all is on the Wai diet, please speak up.

"Transitionary" suggests to me that the Wai diet is not truly a raw Paleo diet. Therefore, while it may have a place at the forum, it may not belong in the raw Paleo section of the forum. It would still fulfill the "part of the reason" that "is to gradually invite [people] to become more rawpalaeo," by being in a non-Paleo section here. By being in the raw Paleo section it could give newbies and visitors the impression that it's a mainstream part of raw Paleo.

I see that still no one has directly answered the question of whether the refined table sugar that is an option in the Wai diet (and that Wai/Klompmaker himself reports consuming) is "not Paleo."

What about rolled oats? Are they "not Paleo"?

I checked out Wai's Wai's Free Acne Book and there are some eye-opening things in it. Here are some excerpts I found surprising:

"Water-based wheat bread is of course much better than bread made with milk."

[The diet allows] "a meal or snack only a bite of very low-protein (containing less than 8% protein) full-fat cream cheese only."

"Protein contents in gram / 3½ oz. (100 gram) (In percentages) ....
Grains and Beans, and the Tubers/Roots you can use instead (of other 'munch foods')":

...
2 Sweet potato
2 Potato
2 Yam
2 Taro
2 Kohlrabi
7 Rice, polished
7 Rice flour
7 Rice, unpolished
7 Rye flour (7 to 10% protein)
7 Pea (green pod and seed)
8 Corn flour
8 Tofu
9 Rye, whole grain
9 Buckwheat
9 Maize, whole grain
10 Barley, whole grain
10 Wheat grits
10 Wheat flour (10 to 12% protein)
10 Millet, shucked corn
10 Sorghum
10 Pearl barley
12 Wheat, whole grain
12 Oats, whole grain
13 Rolled oats
13 Triticale
13 Groats
13 Spelt flour
14 Quinoa (pigweed)
14 Oatmeal
15 Amaranth
15 Wheat bran
17 Baker's yeast
20 Poppy seed
20 Chick pea
21 Bean
21 Lima bean (butter bean)
21 Red kidney bean
23 Mung bean
23 Pea
24 Cowpea, common
24 Lentil
24 Mung bean (Indian gram, golden gram)
27 Wheat germ
33 Winged bean (Goa bean)
36 Soya bean
39 Rye germ
48 Brewer's yeast

Bread, pasta etc.
6 Rye bread
7 Wheat toast bread
7 Whole wheat bread
8 biscuit
8 Wheat (flour) bread
8 Bread rolls
8 Shredded wheat bread
9 Rusk (cracker)
9 Crisp bread
12 Pasta made with eggs

Source: Free Acne Book - Wai Says: Cooking food creates the toxins that cause 'welfare diseases,' http://www.freeacnebook.com/FreeAcneBook.pdf

WTH?

[TylerDurden]

The Wai Diet appears to be far less "non-palaeo" than weston-price diet or primal diet. I don't think sugar is banned on cooked-palaeodiets? I mean it is reasonable to assume that cane sugar is OK, right?

Also, it doesn't matter how many adherents there are. When we first got started, a number of people tried to get rid of the primal diet and Instincto diet forums, but, as we saw, they grew gradually in popularity. Plus, there are some raw, high-carbers in the online community who do diets similiar to the Wai Diet.

[PaleoPhil]

The Wai Diet appears to be far less "non-palaeo" than weston-price diet or primal diet.

The Weston Price and Primal diets aren't in the Paleo section. Isn't there a stricter standard for what goes in the Paleo section?

I don't think sugar is banned on cooked-palaeodiets? I mean it is reasonable to assule that cane sugar is OK, right?

Say what? Since when is refined table sugar considered Paleo and by whom? The refined table version of sugar is the type that Wai consumes and recommends, BTW:

"Although table sugar is (almost) devoid of any micronutrients, it is still a macronutrient, a useful source of energy. If daily requirements of micronutrients are met, there is therefore no objection to the use of sucrose in order to meet daily macronutrient requirements." (Thijs Klompaker, aka Wai Genriuu, "Wai Diet," http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-sugar.html)

Here is what Cordain said about it: "for the most part, refined sugars--another source of carbohydrates--simply were not part of humanity's diet for 2.5 million years. In fact, until about the last 200 years or so, they weren't part of anybody's diet." (The Paleo Diet, p. 47)

Also, heat is used in making table sugar (http://www.sucrose.com/evaprate.html), so it is neither raw nor Paleo. It seems to be about as far from raw Paleo as one can get.

Also, it doesn't matter how many adherents there are. When we first got started, a number of people tried to get rid of the primal diet and Instincto diet forums, but, as we saw, they grew gradually in popularity. Plus, there are some raw, high-carbers in the online community who do diets similiar to the Wai Diet.

I'm not trying to get rid of Wai. I merely asked whether it makes sense to have it in the Paleo section, and before doing even that I patiently waited for any defense of the Wai diet or anyone reporting good results from it or any direct answers to my questions. I have seen only one person reporting in this Raw Paleo forum to be a Wai practitioner. I also read some about it, including an interview of Klompmaker himself. I'm OK with a big tent and I think there's room for Instincto in the Paleo tent even though Burger's theory underlying his recommendations doesn't jibe completely with Paleo theory. I think Wai stretches the tent too far, however. I didn't expect you to change your mind, but I think it's good to question assumptions now and then and think consciously about things instead of blindly accepting the status quo. So far no one has stepped up to defend the diet, so it withers on the vine.

[TylerDurden]

Well, sugar as a term also includes raw cane sugar presumably which might well have been consumed much earlier. The Wai Diet does not include either dairy or grains, so is far "less worse" than the primal diet or weston-price diets.

[PaleoPhil]

As you can see in the quotes I shared above, Wai specifies table sugar, not raw cane sugar, and he also bizarrely lists grains in his Acne book as acceptable "munch food" sources of protein, along with your hated cooked tubers. So based your own comments, the Wai diet does indeed appear to be a "transition" toward a raw Paleo diet, not a raw Paleo diet in itself, and therefore does not appear to belong in the raw Paleo section of the forum.

I don't think you answered my question on whether you should examine the Wai diet before concluding that it's raw Paleo and belongs in the raw Paleo section of the forum and I'm getting the sense that you still haven't thoroughly examined it.

[TylerDurden]

First of all, the main foods of the Wai Diet are raw seafood and raw fruits, both raw and palaeo. The sugar is a demi-palaeo food since sugar is not completely banned by palaeodiets as a whole, re cane-sugar. It does not matter whether Wai recommends only table-sugar as that is only a variation thereof. Besides, sugar is always used as a condiment, not as a major food, even in quantity. The grains aspect is a bit odd, but Wai, I recall, does attack grains a lot in his scientific data sections, so it's more of a case of split-personality than that he always supports grains. The point is that the Wai Diet is more raw and more palaeo than the Weston-Price Diet and more palaeo than the Primal Diet. So it stays.

[RawZi]

Yes, you can squeeze out the juice from sugar cane stalks, and it is a refreshing drink. ... There are juicers made for this purpose. Or, as mentioned, you can express the juice by chewing on the stalk.

Just wanted to mention, sugar cane (the plant that looks like a tall corn stalk) is not the same as cane sugar (the dehydrated ..).

    Have you ever squeezed it? It's like a small tree.  The machine to extract juice is quite large, and you'd have to see (and hear) what it does to the cane.  Modern day corn is juicier.  Actually, sounds like a nice idea to try and run corn stalks through a cane juicer.  To me the juice tastes like "live" sugar water, rather than the dead stuff you'd get from mixing Sucanat(tm) with plain water.  I'm not sure I'd compare the flavor with tropical fruit juice.  Imo chewing it would be paleo. 

[goodsamaritan]

My wife and kids love raw sugar cane juice freshly squeezed.

[RawZi]

.. the main foods of the Wai Diet are raw seafood and raw fruits, both raw and palaeo. The sugar is a demi-palaeo food since sugar is not completely banned by palaeodiets as a whole, re cane-sugar. It does not matter whether Wai recommends only table-sugar as that is only a variation thereof. ..

    A young man said to me he's on the Wai Diet. He said he mostly eats egg yolks without the membranes that's around it, olive oil and orange juice.  He said the fish isn't necessary, that sugars and fats are most important on it etc but it's probably his interpretation.  I've read that land meats can be on the diet, but that it's so hard to find proper quality meats these days, that 99% of the people on it or so never touch land meats.  

[masterducky]

One thing to note in regarding sugar on wai diet is that they recommend to eat it with olive oil
to slow down insulin response.

They drink orange juice mixed with sugar and olive oil.
I personally dont like the taste of it.

Id rather mix sugar with butter and yolks if i was to eat sugar but i never tried it yet.