Feeling Ill

[Iguana]

No wonder you’re not well, that's a totally fanciful diet: kefir, coconut oil, ground beef wrapped in lettuce, vinegar…  

Eating the whole eggs is IMO not good.
Throw away the whites and eat only the yolk.

Most people don’t like the whites, but I do like it and at times I can eat up to 10 or 12 whites and sometimes even a few more yolks than whites. To know if you should eat the white or not, take it separately. A former friend didn’t like the whites, so she kept it for me in a jar and I drank it like a nectar.

[TylerDurden]

The issue re avidin binding the biotin in raw eggs is not really a big deal. It's only supposed to be a problem if one eats 24 or more raw eggs a day, which only extremist Primal Dieters do. That said, the avidin is all in the raw egg-white, so one should always eat the yolk along with the white. Raw eggs  anyway should never be a major  staple of a rawpalaeodiet as raw eggs were only ever eaten seasonally in small amounts at a time given that domestication of birds was not a way of life in the palaeolithic era.

[Iguana]

Not only birds lay eggs: turtles, alligators, crocodiles, iguanas and so on do. I was never fortunate to eat the latter's eggs, though, but sea turtle's eggs. They lay about 120 eggs at once in the sand!  

[Hannibal]

The issue re avidin binding the biotin in raw eggs is not really a big deal.

White contains enzyme inhibitors, which are problematic. Howell wrote about that issue.

Raw eggs  anyway should never be a major  staple of a rawpalaeodiet as raw eggs were only ever eaten seasonally in small amounts at a time given that domestication of birds was not a way of life in the palaeolithic era.

Not necessarily true.
During "bird seasons" in Greenland or Northern Canada there are quite a lot of eggs which are eaten by Inuits.
And the birds are truly wild.

[CHK91]

I guess there is always a catch to eating stationary food. Damn evolutionary defense mechanisms. 

[TylerDurden]

Not only birds lay eggs: turtles, alligators, crocodiles, iguanas and so on do. I was never fortunate to eat the latter's eggs, though, but sea turtle's eggs. They lay about 120 eggs at once in the sand! 

Yes, but how likely is one to be near a breeding site where tutles lay eggs en masse. I suspect that people might get a short window of opprtunity during early spring where they could eat lots of raw eggs for a couple of weeks, but after that point, it would be very hit-and-miss.

[CHK91]

Are these detoxes supposed to happen often in the first few months? It's been a week since my last supposed detox ended, and I'm getting the same symptoms again, though not as bad. I eliminated the dairy completely during this period as a precautionary measure.

Is this going to be a random occurrence or will there be some pattern to this?

[Iguana]

It takes some time, CHK91, but it should gradually decrease in intensity if you do things properly. The first year I was rather tired sometimes, with highs and lows, but it stabilized until feeling great most of the time (although other parameters than food have also a large influence). It seems it has been the same for most people.  

[TylerDurden]

Are these detoxes supposed to happen often in the first few months? It's been a week since my last supposed detox ended, and I'm getting the same symptoms again, though not as bad. I eliminated the dairy completely during this period as a precautionary measure.

Is this going to be a random occurrence or will there be some pattern to this?

Should be random. Some claim they never detoxed(usually those who did big-time fasts before transitioning or the like), while others  experienced a regular series of detoxes etc.

[sabertooth]

I did allot of intermittent fasting right before I found this diet, not because I wanted to, I was just so sick I couldn't eat anything without pain and thought if I fasted regularly I would eventually kill the yeast and lower my blood sugars.

Its didn't work and I became malnourished and extremely underweight although I believe I may have been able to lower my toxin load so  when I did have a  detox at about 3 weeks into the raw diet it was mild and  I began to feel great immediately after.  I had some more mild supposed detoxes that were nothing more than a few instances of diarrhea along with some fatigue, but after each occurrence I began to feel good soon after. around the 3 month mark They went away.

[Caveman]

I sure hope these ill symptoms are detox for everyone's sake..

Last time I thought I was just detoxing was when I went on a kind of vegan diet extremely high in fiber and everything went downhill and continued to do so until I returned to a SAD. Well, actually I always suspect that I might be continually detoxing, judging by my skin, but it's so frustrating knowing whether or not it simply is detox.

I do think I've learned a lot, and it took quite some suffering. I know I am on the right track when I feel better, and not when I feel worse and simply put it off as detox. That's why I have so much confidence in this raw paleo diet. I seem to get very short bursts of symptoms eating raw paleo now, not a continuous downhill spiral, so I know for one that this probably isn't damaging. I've tried almost everything until I got here, and I do notice a big difference now.

The first time I bit into my first raw steak up to a few weeks later, I felt like my body has finally started healing and it's getting exactly what it needed.

OP, you're not alone here. I'm not feeling so great at the moment. It is very strange though how my symptoms are fluctuating so strongly. One day I will have all the energy in the world and I'll go out and do something and have fun, be happy, strong and sleep extremely well, and the next I will be fatigued to some degree and find it extremely hard to get any rest while breaking out with acne usually along the lymph vessels.

Are your symptoms going on and off randomly like this too, or has it been continuous?

[CHK91]

After being on the raw paleo diet for 3 days, I had a period of discomfort that lasted 3 days. For a week I felt very well compared to how I had been feeling. It seemed like I was finally recovering. The symptoms started again, though with lesser intensity. The flu-like symptoms haven't been as strong, and I didn't have to dip my rashes into very hot water while swearing this time . It is slightly demoralizing since I became "addicted" to that period of wellbeing. It is likely only a bump in the road, and I will fight on.

[turkish]

i have detox symptoms (loose bowels & feeling ill) whenever i have raw beef liver. Maybe its a bad batch. I got a new batch of frozen liver from northstartbison - will report how that goes.

[CHK91]

i have detox symptoms (loose bowels & feeling ill) whenever i have raw beef liver. Maybe its a bad batch. I got a new batch of frozen liver from northstartbison - will report how that goes.

OMG. You too?

I can't tell if it actually is detox or that the extremely high copper content of liver is aggravating my already copper toxic body. It's so hard to figure out.

[turkish]

CHK91,
 thats really interesting. How did you figure out that you have a copper overload?

And how are you fixing it?

Do you avoid liver or do you take it cooked? Somehow this detox does not happen when i have it cooked (boiled).

[CHK91]

Almost all vegans and recently defected vegans have high copper compared to zinc. Animal foods generally have a much higher ratio of zinc to copper than plants. Plants also have antinutrients that block zinc absorption. If you have ever seen vegans who claim that they have so much energy yet look on edge, high copper load is part of why that is. Copper is stimulating and eventually the adrenals will crash due to overstimulation. For those that have corrected their diets, uncomfortable symptoms will occur as the body eliminates the excess copper. When I started adding meats back into my diet, I felt horrible because zinc deficiency weakens protein digestion and I was starting to eliminate a lot of copper. My mind gradually became calm again as the detox symptoms became weaker. One condition caused by excess copper that paralyzed me was the OCD personality. People who are copper toxic tend to become rigid and inflexible which is why there are many vegans who continue to do what they do even if it is killing them.

There is a genetic condition called Wilson's disease that causes copper accumulation. Copper toxic people would share many symptoms as those with Wilson's disease.

[turkish]

If you have ever seen vegans who claim that they have so much energy yet look on edge, high copper load is part of why that is. One condition caused by excess copper that paralyzed me was the OCD personality. People who are copper toxic tend to become rigid and inflexible which is why there are many vegans who continue to do what they do even if it is killing them.

CHK91,
 this is exactly me in my vegan(@#$%%) days. Now i am much more relaxed.

Do you recommend that i continue with the liver and these detox symptoms will lessen? Is there anything else i can do to speed up this copper detox?

Also what is 'OCD personality'?

[turkish]

CHK91,
 read up on OCD personality. That was me exactly. Thanks once again.

[CHK91]

I'm actually going to lay off the liver for a while. I guess I'll eat more kidneys instead for high vitamin meat.

As long as you are eating plenty of red meats(sans ruminant liver) and low amounts of plant food, you should eventually balance out. If you really want to speed things up, you could take a zinc supplement.

Apparently, pork liver is supposed to be much much lower in copper that in ruminants.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/pork-products/2195/2

Holy crap, that's a lot...

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2

I hope pork liver tastes good. XP

[turkish]

CHK91,
 Thanks a lot for this information.

Plant food means "both fruits and vegetable" or only vegetables?

Do you recommend any good zinc supplement?

Or is it best to avoid them, as they are not paleo.

[CHK91]

If you are not avoiding carbohydrates, some plant food isn't necessarily bad. Just don't make it a major staple and keep eating red meats. If you eat nuts, don't eat too many of them since they also have high copper. Even if they are paleo, they have anti-nutrients and are hard to digest like any other seed so it's not even an ideal food. I do take a zinc supplement. It's called Optizinc by Source Naturals. If you still have those symptoms you could start out with a higher dosage and gradually reduce dosage as you feel more tranquil. Remember that the aim to balance the copper with zinc not completely get rid of it. Eventually you should stop. Zinc is supposed to stimulate the logical brain, the neocortex. My rigidity actually started to let go during my vegan phase as I was supplementing zinc. Copper stimulates the diencephalon which is part of the limbic system which is thought to be important in regulation of emotion. This would explain the high-strung vegan mannerisms. Their crusade of saving all the animals is based only on emotion after all.

It feels strange for me criticize them, since I was vegan a few months ago. However, now that my mind is thinking logically, I realize how foolish I was.

Shame about that Durianriders guy. He doesn't realize what has happened to him. Just by looking at him it is obvious he is copper toxic, high-strung, emotionally unstable, and religiously rigid.

[turkish]

Zinc is supposed to stimulate the logical brain, the neocortex. My rigidity actually started to let go during my vegan phase as I was supplementing zinc. Copper stimulates the diencephalon which is part of the limbic system which is thought to be important in regulation of emotion. This would explain the high-strung vegan mannerisms. Their crusade of saving all the animals is based only on emotion after all.

It feels strange for me criticize them, since I was vegan a few months ago. However, now that my mind is thinking logically, I realize how foolish I was.

CHK91,Totally understand what you are saying, i was vegan too few months back. Checked out the supplement you suggested it contains "silicon dioxide, stearic acid, and magnesium stearate". i heard bad things about them. What do you think?

[CHK91]

CHK91,Totally understand what you are saying, i was vegan too few months back. Checked out the supplement you suggested it contains "silicon dioxide, stearic acid, and magnesium stearate". i heard bad things about them. What do you think?

What bad things are you talking about?

[turkish]

magnesium stearate is a immunosuppresant, hinder absorption.

on googling i find arguments on both sides, depending upon who you read.

this why i arrived at this supp, as its in a water base:
http://www.thorne.com/Products/Minerals/Zinc/prd~ZN.jsp

[CHK91]

Gawd... Health seems to become more complicated by the day. I never thought the additives would be a big deal since there isn't much and I wasn't planning to do it forever. The copper/zinc imbalance seemed like a more serious concern when I started.

Btw, that product isn't for supplementation. It is only a taste test for zinc deficiency.

I actually looked at some other supplements. There will always be some questionable ingredient. I don't think it's good to dwell too much on ingredients that we're not even sure does anything harmful.