Questions

[Snowflower]

Last night I ate some raw grassfed ground beef. I am going to eat the rest of it today, but plan to add a bit more lemon juice - that made it easier. That, plus a whole lot of onions in it. It was all right as long as I didn't dwell too much on what I was doing. Thinking about what was in my mouth made me gag. But the taste was fine - it was just the idea of it that got to me.

So, I'm beginning to realize that I just jumped into this with both feet and with my eyes closed. Now I'm trying to figure out why I decided it was a good idea and what the hell I'm doing. I'd like to start by giving as brief as possible a description of my health problems and what I've been doing about it, then have questions.

I am morbidly obese. I'm a diet expert who has tried everything - which is why I got up to morbidity, of course, since a calorie restricted diet is a sure way to blow metabolism (learned too late.) I have been increasingly in pain for years, to the point that during this past summer and fall I have wondered why I wanted to stay alive. Everything hurts. There isn't a part of me that is pain free.

On Nov. 30, I started eating raw vegan. The pain levels dropped dramatically. It was my idea to test foods one at a time to see what could be added back in. The last time I tried raw vegan (four years ago), I lasted four months and lost 80 pounds. Even when I went back to eating cooked foods, the weight stayed off for another 18 months - until I added wheat back in again and gained it all back. So, anyway, I knew I wouldn't last forever eating raw vegan because I go nuts for meat, but I wanted desperately to lose the weight again and thought I'd try it for as long as I could stand it.

A week ago, I decided to test eggs. I didn't want to eat four raw eggs that night (was doing a major challenge) so I cooked them. The next day, no pain increase, so I had two raw eggs in a smoothie, then four cooked eggs that night. Next morning - POW - couldn't get out of bad for the pain. I figured it was demonstrating a delayed reaction egg allergy, until a friend suggested I look into leaky gut syndrome because the protein could have passed the intestinal wall barrier before being broken down into amino acids and be causing the pain that way.

So, I investigated and found a lot of potential matching in the symptoms. (I should clarify here - no doctors. Period. NO Medical fucking doctors. That's how I feel about allopathic medicine. So, I'm doing this totally on my own.)

Anyway, then my daughter wondered if there was a difference between eating the eggs raw or cooking them, in how the protein would go through cell walls. I did a search and found this site, and a few other places that talked about eating raw meat. So, that's how I ended up here, and decided to give raw meat a try. So, now, a couple days later, and the dust is settling and I'm going - why?

Why are some of you refusing to eat any plant food at all?
Are there some of you who do eat plant foods? What kind of percentage of meat versus vegies?
Are there some of you who have a concentration on plant foods (fruits and vegies) and then just add some meat?
Is the primary point to eat everything raw - including plant foods if those are eaten?
What is it about eating raw meat that is supposed to be so good for you? (This is probably the biggest question I have.)
I have been doing online searches and have come up with not very much at all about eating raw meat. Is this guy named Anjulus or whatever, the only guru out there promoting raw meat or are there others that I could do a search on?
Are there any videos with interviews of people who have experienced a raw meat diet and gotten better (I found one.)

I would appreciate anything any of you would like to share about this. I'm freaking out here about what I've gotten myself into and not understanding exactly what I'm doing or why I'm doing it.

[CHK91]

Hi snowflower, I hope that both of us may regain our health one day.

I'm a newbie too so what I say is probably not worth much.

I avoid most plant food. My phase with veganism has left me not being able to handle many of them. I started to become intolerant to grains and legumes as my gut became more permeable and as my digestion became weaker. I ate a lot of fruit during that time. I cannot handle fruit anymore because I get bad hypoglycemia and feel depressed soon after. The way my body handled carbohydrates changed for the worst.

I may be presuming things but your phase with veganism may have caused or exacerbated leaky gut. I glad that you didn't do it as long as I did. Don't eat wheat or its relatives ever again. It has negative effects on the digestive system and really should be considered unsuitable for human consumption.

The primary point is to eat everything raw. There is a thread here about harmful compounds created by cooking and how pasteurization makes foods less nutritious or even harmful.

Raw meat and fat, especially organ meats, are high in vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids. Plants usually do not have such high concentration and/or the nutrients are not as bioavailable(As I learned the hard way).

You don't find many articles or resources on raw meat diet because society usually looks down upon it and doctors and medical "experts" say it will kill you.

[TylerDurden]

So, now, a couple days later, and the dust is settling and I'm going - why?

Why are some of you refusing to eat any plant food at all?

  Because some of us have personal health-problems with carbs as a result of eating cooked/processed diets for years and years. Others here have problems with raw dairy or raw coconut oil, due to genetics or past health-problems gained on cooked/processed diets.

Are there some of you who do eat plant foods? What kind of percentage of meat versus vegies?

  Yes, a majority of us also eat  some raw plant foods, though those who eat only raw meats form a very  large minority indeed. Among raw omnivores, that varies between 90 percent of a raw diet to only 1-2 percent of the diet.

Are there some of you who have a concentration on plant foods (fruits and vegies) and then just add some meat?

  Yes, a few people like SkinnyDevil, but not many. Most here feel the need to concentrate mostly on raw animal foods for health, with raw plant foods given a lesser emphasis.

Is the primary point to eat everything raw - including plant foods if those are eaten?

Yes, of course.

What is it about eating raw meat that is supposed to be so good for you? (This is probably the biggest question I have.)

This is way too big a question to answer in such a short post, but I can do a vague, short  resume. There are so many advantages:-

1) Cooked animal foods have the highest amounts of heat-created toxins in them, of all cooked foods. By eating the meat raw, you avoid taking in those heat-created toxins, and thus slow down your rate of aging by comparison to cooked-food-eaters. (Heat-created toxins, such as Advanced Glycation End Products figure heavily in diseases normally associated with old-age).

2) Enzymes. Enzymes in raw foods help predigest raw foods in the upper stomach for a little while before being destroyed in the lower stomach. As people grow older on cooked diets, they routinely find that their digestion worsens, to the point where they need extra artificial enzyme supplements in order to improve their digestion, as their enzyme-producing organs deteriorate from excessive use due to not eating enough enzyme-rich raw foods.

3) Bacteria. Bacteria are essential for the gut and the sheer lack of bacteria in the modern world has directly led to a dramatic rise in developed nations of things like asthma, allergies etc. Read up on the Hygiene Hypothesis in this regard.

4) Raw foods, including raw meats have a higher water-content than their cooked equivalent, which appears to help with digestion. Also, proteins in raw meats etc. are not denatured as in  their cooked equivalents, so are easier to digest.

I have been doing online searches and have come up with not very much at all about eating raw meat. Is this guy named Anjulus or whatever, the only guru out there promoting raw meat or are there others that I could do a search on?

  He is the main guru, and, IMO, somewhat flawed as he recommends things like raw dairy, but he is on target re many beneficial aspects of raw diets. There is also Guy-Claude Burger and Wai Genriuu and Weston-Price(albeit only partially raw as a guru).

Are there any videos with interviews of people who have experienced a raw meat diet and gotten better (I found one.)

I would appreciate anything any of you would like to share about this. I'm freaking out here about what I've gotten myself into and not understanding exactly what I'm doing or why I'm doing it.

Ultimately, nothing will really convince you or any other newbie more than trying a rawpaleodiet yourself. I , for example, tried raw, fresh meats at first, and was convinced that, sooner or later, I would get food-poisoning, despite so many long-term RVAFers stating they were fine on such a diet. After some months(and some wrong paths due to basic mistakes I made when doing RVAF diets) I realised I was alive, and indeed better on such a RVAF diet. It took me a further 3 years before I finally got up the courage to try "high-meat"(="raw aged, rotting meat), but I also found that to be very useful for health as well.

In the meantime, read up on as many threads/posts on rawpaleoforum as you can(not irrelevant stuff such as "what are you listening to", but pretty much everything else). Also read the articles on rawpaleodiet.com and in the "Info for Newbies" section of rawpaleoforum.

Videos of people doing these diets are dotted all over rawpaleoforum and there is a fledgling testimonials section on rawpaleodiet.com

[Snowflower]

Thank you, both. Ok, so summarizing, I'm doing it for the lack of toxicity from cooked meats, and the enzymes, bacteria and increased digestibility.

I discovered tonight just how easy it is to swallow raw, ground meat whole - without chewing so I didn't gross myself out. (LOL).

[bharminder]

1)Why are some of you refusing to eat any plant food at all?
2)Are there some of you who do eat plant foods? What kind of percentage of meat versus vegies?
3)Are there some of you who have a concentration on plant foods (fruits and vegies) and then just add some meat?
4)Is the primary point to eat everything raw - including plant foods if those are eaten?
5)What is it about eating raw meat that is supposed to be so good for you? (This is probably the biggest question I have.)
I have been doing online searches and have come up with not very much at all about eating raw meat. 6)Is this guy named Anjulus or whatever, the only guru out there promoting raw meat or are there others that I could do a search on?
7)Are there any videos with interviews of people who have experienced a raw meat diet and gotten better (I found one.)

First I'd like to say that I do not follow a raw paleo diet exactly as it is guided. Sometimes I eat cooked starches or meats but I try to limit these as much as I can right now in a modern world.

To your questions,
1) I don't know. I eat plant foods a lot, especially vegetables.
2) There is not a specific ratio of plant:meat. I experience phases where I eat a higher meat percentage with few plant foods, and other times where I eat a low meat percentage and a higher plant percentage. Sometimes I try to avoid all foods altogether for a day or two, but generally eat some fruit during this time, or a few vegetables.

To elaborate further, I think Daniel Vitalis put it well with this diagram


He writes: "Where we eat on this scale is entirely up to us, and of course always in flux.  Rather than dogmatically polarizing ourselves to one extreme or the other, would it not be wiser to move along this scale based on our personal goals and the affects we are aiming to achieve?

If you have spent years on a vegetarian diet and have experienced a “failure to thrive”, it is animal foods that offer the chance to rebuild your body.  In particular it is wild animals or free ranging grass-fed domesticates that contain the nutrients required to refurbish a depleted body.

Conversely, if you have been on a Standard American Diet for some time, and are feeling the burden of the toxic load this so easily creates, a vegetarian and even raw food approach may be just the answer to cleanse your body of the environmental and industrial toxins that pollute our inner ecology.

More importantly, can we simply eat without judgment for one another? "

http://www.danielvitalis.com/tag/meat-eater/


3) I think a concentration of plant foods with some added high quality meat can work for some. Personally, I find a bit more meat than that in the diet to be more satisfying and satiable. But I do eat in phases with different ratios of meat:plant foods, sometimes higher sometimes lower.

4) I don't think Everything should necessarily be eaten raw. However, if something is edible raw, then I think it should generally be eaten raw. Nutrients are more available(heat destroys nutrients), enzymes, bio photons or life energy exist within living foods(non cooked, non processed).

5) To answer that question let me tell you my diet prior to adding in raw animal foods. I was mostly raw vegetarian with some raw eggs and cooked meats/starches occasionally. When I came to the conclusion, through research online, that animal foods are important for health, I knew after all that I'd learned with the raw veganism that cooked foods aren't the answer. So how could I incorporate animal foods without cooking them? I was already eating raw eggs....so I started eating other raw animal foods like beef and fish. I believe high quality is important when selecting these foods and I recommend freezing fish as I've found live worms in my fresh wild salmon before.

6) http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggindex.html
"Here is an online English version of Guy-Claude Burger's book "La Guerre du Cru/The War of Raw":-" ~TD

also, here is an article by Aajonus http://www.life-enthusiast.com/index/Articles/Vonderplanitz/Recipe_for_Living_Without_Disease

He doesn't advocate raw paleo diet but his diet recommendations are closer to raw paleo than many other diets.

7)there are some videos of a forum member named goodsamaritan who has posted some videos on this forum somewhere. Other than that it was youtube.


Note: I have only been eating raw animal products(other than eggs) for about 7 months.

[raw-al]

Thank you, both. Ok, so summarizing, I'm doing it for the lack of toxicity from cooked meats, and the enzymes, bacteria and increased digestibility.

I discovered tonight just how easy it is to swallow raw, ground meat whole - without chewing so I didn't gross myself out. (LOL).

First of all Tyler that was a dynamite response.

Snowflower,
You will find like most people that initially there will be physical and psychologically walls to climb. You discovered the biggest; I'm gonna die from all the bacteria, swine flus, blah blah. That is a crock.

However for maximum effect and health be aware that the animals that you eat should be as close as you can find to animals that would be if they were wild. In other words do your best to eat meat that is organically raised ie no chemical or biologically enhanced life supports like antibiotics etc. This is true regardless of whether you are eating raw or cooked food.

For fish eat wild caught. Reasoning is that fish in fish farms are fed things that make them grow quickly, gain weight and their continuous living in a protected environment has potential for breeding diseases. The food they receive is not what they evolutionarily were designed to eat.

For beef eat only grassfed. The reason is that farmers have discovered that if they feed their animals grain for the last 60 days before slaughter the meat increases in fat content and so they get more weight which is what they get paid for. The problem is that the grain is very bad for their health as they were designed to eat grass/hay/leaves. If the farmer keeps them on grain for more than 60 days the animals get very sick and will die. The reason the animals are fed antibiotics is that they are kept in such unhygienic conditions that disease is inevitable. Remember you want to eat something that was healthy, not on the verge of getting sick.

Also the antibiotics and other medicines they are fed, store in the meat and fat cells and are released to you when you eat it.

Raw organic unpasteurized milk is one way of getting milk that is most likely to be digestible and nutritious as the enzymes are still intact and if you buy pasteurized milk the farmer can have sick filthy animals with no problems as the disease is supposed "cured" with the pasteurization.

[Snowflower]

raw-al, thanks for your response. My primary reaction isn't actually "I'm gonna die," because I've had a pretty solid reassurance from Sally Fallon in Nourishing Traditions that I just need to freeze the meat for two days to ensure no parasites. And, I'm very lucky about my source of meat. I'm eating a steer we raised on our own land, so I KNOW what went into that cow. I raise my own goats, so when I get around to trying milk again (off dairy right now) I will have my own raw milk. I haven't drunk pasteurized milk for three years. Due to the insanity of the federal govt. and BP, we have made the decision to eat no more ocean fish of any kind for any reason whatsoever. Also that goes for farmed fish. So, the only fish we will ever eat will come out of our own lake or the stream that's about two miles from here. We live in the wilderness off the grid and the world of wild meat is sitting outside our door.

[raw-al]

raw-al, thanks for your response. My primary reaction isn't actually "I'm gonna die," because I've had a pretty solid reassurance from Sally Fallon in Nourishing Traditions that I just need to freeze the meat for two days to ensure no parasites. And, I'm very lucky about my source of meat. I'm eating a steer we raised on our own land, so I KNOW what went into that cow. I raise my own goats, so when I get around to trying milk again (off dairy right now) I will have my own raw milk. I haven't drunk pasteurized milk for three years. Due to the insanity of the federal govt. and BP, we have made the decision to eat no more ocean fish of any kind for any reason whatsoever. Also that goes for farmed fish. So, the only fish we will ever eat will come out of our own lake or the stream that's about two miles from here. We live in the wilderness off the grid and the world of wild meat is sitting outside our door.

Snowflower,

You are lucky for the opportunity to raise your own animals. Good luck on the wild meat. We're all jealous.

There has been a fair amount of discussion here on whether to freeze meat. Most say avoid it unless no choice as it degrades the nutritional content.

As far as the parasites there is almost universal agreement here that that is a non-issue.

Re: dairy that is another hot button topic here  because Aajonus V. gets on about how everybody can and should drink it. This is one of those things that he says that nobody seems to agree with. I love milk but obviously not everybody does or can tolerate it.

Aajonus has some amazingly excellent ideas and a few amazingly bad ideas. However I highly recommend you read his books especially on bacteria and "high meat".

I had some serious chronic issues with Pasteurized milk which disappeared when I switched to raw milk.

[miles]

I think the mainstream says that you must freeze meat for 2 weeks to destroy parasites. Also I think once you've frozen something it's best to eat it frozen too, and thaw it in your mouth.

[Dima]

Snowflower,

I think it may be worthwhile to start with lightly cooked meats, since it's difficult for your to eat raw meat. It's important to be gentle to yourself. I found that force feeding myself is counter-productive. I've been eating rare steaks for months and the thought of eating raw beef came more or less naturally. I tried some raw ribeye and loved the taste! Eating raw organs seemed disturbing, but I ate them and I was still alive Be patient and good luck!

[Snowflower]

Ok, this is what I did to a beef t-bone steak yesterday. I sliced off very thin pieces, then cut them into bite size chunks. Then, marinated in lemon juice and added some coconut oil which instantly hardened, so that didn't work very well. Left it in the ice box for about two hours, then took an avocado, scooped it out into the bowl of meat, started mashing it into the meat, until it was thoroughly mixed. Then, I ate it. I swallowed pieces without a lot of chewing, whenever I thought about what I was doing. It was, frankly, delicious.

I'm realizing today that I have a LOT more bias against eating chicken meat than goat, lamb or beef. Why? Anyone have any ideas why it just "sounds worse" to eat raw chicken than raw beef? One problem is that I don't have a source for super healthy chickens like I do for beef or goats. But it's more than that and I'm thinking it's buried in my psyche given to me by society.

I've popped out with a UTI this morning. Any possibility it's related to such a massive diet change as to add raw meat? More acid or less acid or something?

[TylerDurden]

Chickens are far more intensively farmed than any other animal, with them being mostly exclusively fed on 100 percent grains diets. Chickens are also far less likely to be given decent space to roam around in compared to other animals(re battery hens etc.)

[raw-al]

We also have probs with eating chicken. Not sure why although what Tyler says makes sense.

The UTI may be lemon related. (just guessing)

Most people find that there is a transition period when switching to a raw diet. This is true when switching to any diet really, but in some people it is over in a day or two, some month or two and some longer. Various reasons but not to worry.

Use your process of trying different foods and see their effect. Most people will eat fat with this diet. This does not translate to body fat and I will not hazard a guess as to the reason why it is important. However it seems to be a good idea to have at least some fat with the food whether it be in the form of animal fat, butter or avocado etc..

[bharminder]

I ate organic chicken meat with some of it's organs that I bought from the supermarket. I got food poisoning from it and took a large dose of high quality probiotics(finished the whole bottle in <8 doses spaced an hour or two apart) that helped me get well.

I don't recommend supermarket chicken, unless you can find chicken that is pasture raised, not fed soy, ....maybe some other qualifications.

Most available chicken is not a good idea because they are intensively farmed in horrible conditions, likely unclean, unhealthy environments. The typical "battery cage" scenario that you hear about, with ammonia fumes spreading throughout the factory. Some of these factories house millions of chickens in one building. Disgusting.


Now, there probably are some safe brands out there that you may find in a store.

Because I've tried the highest quality chicken in my local area I will not eat it unless I ordered it online , and it was a pasture raised animal.

[Snowflower]

Ok, I'll stick with beef for awhile and then branch into lamb and goat. Goat won't happen until I'm actually ready to butcher one of mine and that won't happen for sure until next summer sometime. I don't have meat goats. They are miniature Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats, which produce milk but aren't all that great for meat. I've always assumed I'd be into meat production with unwanted kids eventually, since the does must be bred every year to produce milk, but I'd figured I'd feed it mostly to my dogs who are on a carnivore diet. Well, I guess  I'm going to be in competition with the dogs, lol.

[rawcarni]

Most available chicken is not a good idea because they are intensively farmed in horrible conditions, likely unclean, unhealthy environments. The typical "battery cage" scenario that you hear about, with ammonia fumes spreading throughout the factory. Some of these factories house millions of chickens in one building. Disgusting.

Gosh I am happy to live in Europe/Germany where battery cages aren't allowed anymore and cattle are raised under better conditions than in the US. Of course the conditions are still really bad, but I have at least some hoe that the regulations for raising animals will improve more in future...