How important is variety for muscle meats as far as NUTRITION goes, not taste?

[bharminder]

If local access to quality meats is limited in terms of variety, what suggestions are available as far as eating healthy with regards to meats?  Just eat the same meats everyday? Or is there some better option..

[TylerDurden]

It is important to include some variety in a RVAF diet. For example, it has been noted by many that including some raw organ-meats in their diet helped them recover faster.

(Make sure to only buy the cheapest cuts of raw meats, as there is no real difference nutritionally between fillet steak and stewing steak - wait, isn't fillet steak leaner, in which case it's less nutritious?)

All newbies should ideally spend most of their weekends scouting out local farmer's markets or searching online on grassfed meat directories etc. for grassfed/organic farms or those selling raw wild game.  I keep on being told by newbies that their sources are limited or nonexistent, but the truth is that there are sources all over the place, one just has to look long enough and hard enough for them.

[Josh]

Don't want to muddy the discussion, but thought it would help to point out that lex_rooker seems to have done ok eating <10% organ meat and the rest mince/ground beef and fat, so I don't think it's that clear cut that you need so much variety.

It's a bit confusing to say 'many people found they recovered faster' as how many people are we talking about in total and it's all guesswork/anecdotal.

[TylerDurden]

Don't want to muddy the discussion, but thought it would help to point out that lex_rooker seems to have done ok eating <10% organ meat and the rest mince/ground beef and fat, so I don't think it's that clear cut that you need so much variety.

It's a bit confusing to say 'many people found they recovered faster' as how many people are we talking about in total and it's all guesswork/anecdotal.

  Anecdotal evidence is not just guesswork. Besides, on a scientific basis, raw organ-meats have a higher amount of key nutrients in them than raw muscle-meats, so it makes sense that they speed up recovery, especially in cases where peoples' health problems are caused by nutritional deficiencies.

As for Lex, who knows? Maybe  he would have recovered a bit faster with 20 percent raw organs in the diet.

[turkish]

organs make me feel awfull, maybe its detox - i am new to all this so i am still learning the ropes.

currently i am at 0% organs, all muscle.

of course i eat cooked too.

[goodsamaritan]

Don't want to muddy the discussion, but thought it would help to point out that lex_rooker seems to have done ok eating <10% organ meat and the rest mince/ground beef and fat, so I don't think it's that clear cut that you need so much variety.

It's a bit confusing to say 'many people found they recovered faster' as how many people are we talking about in total and it's all guesswork/anecdotal.

I really appreciate Lex's journal and what he does as a service for all of us.  It's good to have a raw / cooked zero carb benchmark like Lex.
- Lex today is 60 ?
- Lex doesn't do exercises and just does his clock skills
- Lex needs to drink lots of plain water, like 4 liters a day.
- Lex does his single food staple with pet food for his organs and his raw meat muscle ground beef... he likes things simple.

The question is, will the same work for me?  How can I do better?  Can I do better?

I personally listen to my body about what food to eat.  And although beef is my staple, there are times I get sick of it and look for something else.  Like fish, or oysters, or shrimp or even chicken... funny why a few weeks ago I actually craved raw chicken.

Aajonus Vonderplanitz in his book says different animal meats are good for different things.  Of course, it's obvious they are.

Taste is important as when you are eating condiment free, you get to the true taste of food.

It's a feedback mechanism.  I feel if I havent had a food for a long time and I need it, it just tastes better.

In 2009 I went oyster binging and blue marlin binging.

I'm wondering about my recent chicken dreaming. 3 meals of organic raw chicken was enough to fill my dreams.

[Josh]

Tyler + GS, organ meats have more nutrients but we don't actually know exactly how much we need of things so how much organ meat we need etc is an open question no?

And if there is enough of a nutrient in muscle meat and a little other stuff, then taking extra wouldn't automatically help someone heal faster..another open question I think.

I'm not saying there is no value in eating some variety, but the fact that Lex hasn't had any problems makes me lean towards thinking that his diet is ok. OK people have different lifestyles but what the body needs isn't going to be that drastically different.

GS, not sure about the listening to the body thing. I've been doing it solid for a while and I still crave all sorts of things. If I went with my feelings I'd overeat on seafood and fruit. Maybe that could change later though.

[Hannibal]

From my experience I do know that when I eat only organ-meats (such as liver, kidneys, spleen and testicles) for a longer period of time I crave desperately for muscle-meats. Tongues aren't packed so much with nutrients so I don't grow so quickly tired of them.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler + GS, organ meats have more nutrients but we don't actually know exactly how much we need of things so how much organ meat we need etc is an open question no?

And if there is enough of a nutrient in muscle meat and a little other stuff, then taking extra wouldn't automatically help someone heal faster..another open question I think.

I'm not saying there is no value in eating some variety, but the fact that Lex hasn't had any problems makes me lean towards thinking that his diet is ok. OK people have different lifestyles but what the body needs isn't going to be that drastically different.

GS, not sure about the listening to the body thing. I've been doing it solid for a while and I still crave all sorts of things. If I went with my feelings I'd overeat on seafood and fruit. Maybe that could change later though.

  it's been ages since I checked a table of nutrients but I seem to recall that raw organ-meats contain some things that raw muscle-meats either don't have or have only tiny trace amounts of. Also, Lex is not necessarily representative of the majority. I mean, many of us come to this diet with severe nutritional deficiencies(I had some form of magnesium deficiency for example), so eating raw organ-meats in high amounts at first would speed up recovery, whereas trace amounts of that nutrient from raw muscle-meats might never be enough to make enough difference to start a genuine recovery.

Lex is right re the 10 percent figure he gives, I think, but for people in serious ill-health, it might be best to up the rw organ-intake for a while(though not to very extreme levels, of course).

[Hannibal]

I had some form of magnesium deficiency for example

But which of the organ-meats are rich in magnesium? AFAIK - none.
Horse muscle-meat is richer. 

[TylerDurden]

But which of the organ-meats are rich in magnesium? AFAIK - none.
Horse muscle-meat is richer. 

Wrong, it seems. "Majority of magnesium present in the body is found in bones, teeth, and red blood cells. The rest resides inside the cells of body tissues and organs, while a minimal amount is found in blood. " taken from:- http://lifestyle.iloveindia.com/lounge/magnesium-rich-foods-3805.html

The same must apply roughly to other mammalian bodies.

And I doubt I only had magnesium deficiency, given such complex symptoms.

[Hannibal]

Look at this - http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-017120000000000000000-1w.html?

[Josh]

'body tissues' includes muscle I think.

[TylerDurden]

'body tissues' includes muscle I think.

Yes.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, the USDA nutrient database is really incomplete as regards listing full details for raw wild game, especially in the case of the organ-meats.

The vague general info online shows definite advantages for raw organ-meats versus raw muscle-meats in things like the B vitamins and the other vitamins. The issue re elements like calcium is less clear cut.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Health-Benefits-of-Organ-Meats

The main problem re muscle-meats being seen as more or equally advantagous is, of course, that not only do wild animals routinely seek out raw organ-meats first before they choose the raw muscle-meats, but in most ancient human societies, kings/chiefs etc. would be entitled to select the best organ-meats. Similiarly, for really high-end nutrition, women seeking to get pregnant would, according to Weston-Price, aim for a variety of organ-meats in their diet.

Here is a usda comparison, the 1st one being of raw wild caribou muscle-meat, the rest being of raw organs from caribou:-

"Minerals
Calcium, Ca    
mg
   
17
   

Iron, Fe    
mg
   
4.69
   

Magnesium, Mg    
mg
   
26
   

Phosphorus, P    
mg
   
208
   

   

Potassium, K    
mg
   
295
   


Sodium, Na    
mg
   
57
   


Zinc, Zn    
mg
   
4.00
   

   

Copper, Cu    
mg
   
0.222
   


Manganese, Mn    
mg
   
0.078
   

Selenium, Se    
mcg
   
10.2
   

Vitamins
Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid    
mg
   
0.0

Thiamin    
mg
   
0.320
   
7
   
0.077
Riboflavin    
mg
   
0.720
   
17
   
0.064
Niacin    
mg
   
5.500
   
13
   
0.344
Pantothenic acid    
mg
   
2.550
   

Vitamin B-6    
mg
   
0.370
   
1
   
0.000
Folate, total    
mcg
   
4
   

Folic acid    
mcg
   
0
   
Folate, food    
mcg
   
4
   

Folate, DFE    
mcg_DFE
   
4

Vitamin B-12    
mcg
   
6.31
   

Vitamin A, RAE    
mcg_RAE
   
0
   


Retinol    
mcg
   
0
   

Vitamin A, IU    
IU
   
0
   

Lipids"
Raw bone-marrow of caribou:-

"Minerals
Iron, Fe    
mg
   
4.50
   

Phosphorus, P    
mg
   
107

Vitamins
Thiamin    
mg
   
0.040

Niacin    
mg
   
0.200

Vitamin A, IU "

Raw caribou eye:-

"Minerals
Calcium, Ca    
mg
   
19
   

Iron, Fe    
mg
   
4.70
   

Phosphorus, P    
mg
   
58
   

Vitamins
Thiamin    
mg
   
0.010

Riboflavin    
mg
   
0.050
   

Niacin    
mg
   
0.200

Vitamin A, IU    
IU
   
400
   
"

Raw caribou liver:-

"Minerals
Calcium, Ca    
mg
   
4

Iron, Fe    
mg
   
15.70
   
1
   
0.000
Phosphorus, P    
mg
   
282
   

Vitamins
Vitamin A, IU    
IU
   
28800
   
"

Raw caribou tongue:-

"Minerals
Calcium, Ca    
mg
   
6
   

Iron, Fe    
mg
   
2.80
   


Phosphorus, P    
mg
   
150
   

Vitamins
Thiamin    
mg
   
0.120
   

Vitamin A, IU    
IU
   
190
   
   "

The above tables are far too vague and incomplete, of course, as they don't contain any information on special important nutrients like coenzyme q10 which are in far, far higher amounts in the organs than in the muscle-meats.

[Hannibal]

I do know that organ-meats contain high amounts of some vitamins, mineral and coenzymes.
But re calcium and magnesium they are quite "poor".

[TylerDurden]

I do know that organ-meats contain high amounts of some vitamins, mineral and coenzymes.
But re calcium and magnesium they are quite "poor".

Not really. Another example:-


http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/nutrition_facts_goose_liver_raw.htm:-

magnesium at 24 mg, calcium at 43 mg.

[TylerDurden]

The main thing is to cure like with like. To some extent, it would make sense to eat raw muscle-meats to solve muscular problems, and to eat lots of raw heart if one has heart-disease or skipping heartbeats. Since a lot of people come to a RVAF diet suffering from problems all over the body, it makes sense for them to have a wide variety of raw organ-meats in their diet.

[CitrusHigh]

I think some people might be missing the point or not fully understanding raw paleo.

Of course your goals and values will differ but I'd wager that most of us found RVAF or RAF due to health problems (though it seems there are a lot of people here looking to get ripped, and I'm not talking the ganja). This diet is based on primitive peoples, people who took their cues from animals.

When we look at animals and hunter gatherers, it was the organ meats that they held in highest esteem. Some hunter gatherers in present day canada even wantonly killed caribou just for particular organs (which was not a big deal, because something would eat the rest of the carcass and they had very harsh conditions to endure, I think it may have been the adrenal gland in this case that they were after) And I think I may be referencing WAP's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration

Anyway you should be coveting organs and learning to like them. Yeah, they have a lot of flavor, don't fear them, embrace them. They are some of the worlds most nutrient dense foods.

When I want to save money on beef I go in with my extended family on a half or a whole cow, which usually comes to about 4$/lb. But if I'm just trying to get some grass fed beef when I need it, I go to the coop where I can get grass fed liver for $3/lb

Or when we have an animal butchered most of the organs I get at a discount because Americans have no idea what to do with a kidney, or a pancreas, or the thyroid or the lower intestine.

So there's at least three good reasons to go for organs...

Cost
Health benefit
And making yourself a more well rounded and less intimidated individual

If you really can't stomach liver to start with, then try making a pate out of it. All you need is a frying pan, oven and a blender and you can whip up this delicacy. After you've gotten used to that, gradually add raw liver in.

Don't be afraid, dive in and experience all you can!

[Iguana]

The main thing is to cure like with like. To some extent, it would make sense to eat raw muscle-meats to solve muscular problems, and to eat lots of raw heart if one has heart-disease or skipping heartbeats.

Are you sure it works like that? Aren't things more complex?

[Neone]

You eat the organs first because on a fresh kill thats the only thing thats soft yet haha.

Why wouldnt you eat the organs? most people dont want them and they're cheap(er) than muscle meats usually.  If you already know how nutrient dense and fantastical they are for you why wouldnt you just buy some and bolt it down so you hardly taste it because you know its good for you, kinda like your cod liver oil?
The taste will grow on you as you eat them.
I imagine the people who dont eat the organs are not the ones desperate for their health back?

[TylerDurden]

Are you sure it works like that? Aren't things more complex?

Well, like cures like makes sense. If a cow is healthy , then it will have the right nutrients in its heart to keep its heart going properly, so someone with heart-disease will benefit from eating raw(grassfed) beef heart. I daresay some parts of the body are less nutritious than others, though. I don't think that eating hair is going to help one get back hair on one's head, for example.

[Iguana]

I don't think that eating hair is going to help one get back hair on one's head, for example.

 LOL!  
But for the heart thing, it's just a seemingly sensible guess from you without any experimental confirmation, isn't it? I ask because we didn't find any such correlations.

[TylerDurden]

LOL!   
But for the heart thing, it's just a seemingly sensible guess from you without any experimental confirmation, isn't it? I ask because we didn't find any such correlations.

Heart contains things very useful for the heart like coenzyme q10.

[Neone]

I ate the penis once but i didnt have an orgasm.