Author Topic: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet  (Read 11012 times)

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Offline Brady

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Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« on: January 21, 2011, 10:17:10 pm »
Apologies if you've all seen this (I don't be on that often).  Awesome interview with Daniel Vitalis on the Raw Vegan Diet.  Personnally I think he's took cooking a little too far (with animal products) but I have been heavily influenced by him with regard to combining raw animal products with cooked plant and fungi.  If you know any sick vegans forward them this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfAO7XBnZY&feature=player_embedded
The culture and civilization of the White man are essentially material; his measure of success is, "How much property have I acquired for myself?" The culture of the Red man is fundamentally spiritual; his measure of success is, "How much service have I rendered to my people?"

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 01:10:04 am »
Well, cooking plant foods is certainly not ideal. While some veggies and mushrooms really have to be cooked, such as broccoli,  the very process of cooking adds toxins in exchange, thus negating any real advantage.


I recall another poster recently making a thread about Vitalis and promising some new info later. Now
where was that?

Whatever the case, there certainly seems to be a major shift in the raw vegan world towards raw omnivore, and that is heartening.

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Offline KD

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 01:36:55 am »
the thing as with the other thread, is that even if cooking causes detriments, eating those foods that more or less should be cooked might provide nutrients that a diet which excludes those foods (greens, herbs, mushrooms etc...) does. Its possible that even if paleo peoples didn't eat these things, they achieved this nutrtion through their better quality foods and that these nutrients might be missing in even raw plant food of today without cooking/processing. If one could prove conclusively that these nutrients are helpful, it would very well balance out the damaging problems of cooking. Its certainly possible/debateable.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 01:51:05 am »
the thing as with the other thread, is that even if cooking causes detriments, eating those foods that more or less should be cooked might provide nutrients that a diet which excludes those foods (greens, herbs, mushrooms etc...) does. Its possible that even if paleo peoples didn't eat these things, they achieved this nutrtion through their better quality foods and that these nutrients might be missing in even raw plant food of today without cooking/processing. If one could prove conclusively that these nutrients are helpful, it would very well balance out the damaging problems of cooking. Its certainly possible/debateable.

Yeah,I see the next wave of "health food trend" as "RarePaleo" meaning some foods being cooked/heated "rare" as opposed to strictly/only raw or the other extreme of cooked/over cooked.
Spiritually speaking,it's tough to convince Buddhists(and some other religions as well) to eat meat.Since they're all about compassion and health is not that important to them,it's a tough sell.
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Offline KD

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 02:47:45 am »
heh..I think you are right. I was speaking more though about just getting nutrition from plants for people that actually want the best health. I havn't made up my mind of course as I am quite certain their are advantages to being all raw at least at certain points in health progress, but that over time its possible these requirements might change and its important to acknowledge other processes as possibly being beneficial.

I'm not really too concerned with bringing folks over, particularly those who have a belief in the spiritual consequences of food which I personally believe is a bit of a misunderstanding. Most of the vegans I met prior to doing raw did believe that removing dairy and meats and such was healthful generally, but most weren't really looking for a healthy diet per se and most decision were based on generalized ethics (also not accounting for subsidies and most packaged foods supporting commercial farming and slaughterhouse industries). The ultimate irony is most of these people I know are still vegan and never 'failed' on raw vegan diets that supposedly had more pure nutrition.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 05:00:50 am »
Well,I happen to be Buddhist myself and most of my friends in that circle are vegetarians.They don't use the term vegan.They are mostly Chinese or Taiwanese.They go to veggie restaurants and all that good stuff.There's a big "organic" vegetarian movement right now in Taiwan.
My take on it is to respect the animals I eat and to thank them for my health.Hopefully the animals will get something in return in their next life ;) But,to get other Buddhists to think the way I do is again,a tough sell.
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Offline KD

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 05:09:33 am »
I used to sit zazen with this guy (Chinese) who would talk about his tooth aches. My conclusion is its hard to connect spiritually with a constant toothache or other physical distractions. Even though I've convinced myself anyway that the spiritual traditions of 'leaver' type societies have more meaning for me, if someone wants to believe that for them killing animals is nor necessary or is bad for them...who am I to say definitively what type of 'health' has more value in this life. Prior to modernity the veg diets and lifestyles of China and India were not so detrimental, so this might set an artificial standard for people trying to uphold the same values today.


Offline Nation

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 05:16:41 am »
Well,I happen to be Buddhist myself and most of my friends in that circle are vegetarians.They don't use the term vegan.They are mostly Chinese or Taiwanese.They go to veggie restaurants and all that good stuff.There's a big "organic" vegetarian movement right now in Taiwan.
My take on it is to respect the animals I eat and to thank them for my health.Hopefully the animals will get something in return in their next life ;) But,to get other Buddhists to think the way I do is again,a tough sell.

I was told by a mainland Chinese that the concept of vegetarianism basically doesn't exist in mainland China. I don't know about Taiwan as it is a very different culture than China.

Offline turkish

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 05:17:50 am »
I used to sit zazen with this guy (Chinese) who would talk about his tooth aches. My conclusion is its hard to connect spiritually with a constant toothache or other physical distractions. Even though I've convinced myself anyway that the spiritual traditions of 'leaver' type societies have more meaning for me, if someone wants to believe that for them killing animals is nor necessary or is bad for them...who am I to say definitively what type of 'health' has more value in this life. Prior to modernity the veg diets and lifestyles of China and India were not so detrimental, so this might set an artificial standard for people trying to uphold the same values today.

i guess the pesticides wiped out accidental insects/eggs from the hindu vegetarian diet, so now in the 21st century - vegetarian hindus are having health issues.

Infact the best health i have ever known was as a vegetarian, but a lot has changed in 22 years.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 07:16:23 am »
I was told by a mainland Chinese that the concept of vegetarianism basically doesn't exist in mainland China. I don't know about Taiwan as it is a very different culture than China.

Well,yeah,but I'm talking about Chinese Buddhists specifically not all Chinese people.The temples in China are vegetarian and usually have vegetarian restaurants open to the public.So,Chinese Buddhism has a strong association with vegetarianism in general,whereas Tibetan Buddhism is different in that meat is not such a no-no.Believe me,I speak Chinese and I've lived both in China and Taiwan(I will be going back to China in March btw).
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Offline Brother

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 02:36:49 pm »
Spiritually speaking,it's tough to convince Buddhists(and some other religions as well) to eat meat.Since they're all about compassion....

No they are not. They are about worshipping the self. They are about elitism. Their way of life have spawned the most brutal inhumane systems we have ever heard about. The caste system is one such social construct by "compasionate vegans". The clergy system of Tibet another. I have friends from the psytrance scene who are into everything indian. I always tell them that I wont take spiritual advice from a place that invented and havent got rid of said caste system. In fact that fact alone makes me understand that these people can teach me nothing I want to know. Ok, so they really have thing for cows but clearly their system and general line of thinking abhors humans. They are not about compassion. At its core these kind of spirituality have a shared feature. They are about feeling "better than thou" and thats not compasionate. Keep the miserable fuckers on vegs. More beef for me.

 

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 03:00:31 pm »
Hmmm....Buddhism has nothing to do with a "caste system".You're probably thinking of Hinduism which the prevelant religion in India along with Sikhism.

Please don't try to teach me about Buddhism.You're entitled to your own opinion of course, and say what you want, but don't waste your time telling me I'm wrong.
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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 03:05:57 pm »
Hmmm....Buddhism has nothing to do with a "caste system".

That's what I thought too.

Offline Brother

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 06:50:05 pm »
Hmmm....Buddhism has nothing to do with a "caste system".

Except that it does. Only it doesnt call it like that. Take a look at the history of tibet e.g. I would call that a caste system, but 'brutal theocracy' works equally well if we are going to argue semantics.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 11:50:53 pm »
I am part of a buddist group that meets at the UU church, I see many vegetarians who worship the Dalilama and try to be vegans, I try to explain to them how the Chinese can handle vegetarianism much better than westerners because they have a heritage of diets lower in meat that span back thousands of years, and that even the dalilama started to eat a little fish every now and then. I am the freak in the group because of my carnivorous way of life, but I still admire many of their non dietary aspirations.

I read stories about how when the Buddha left home to seek his destiny. Before he reached enlightenment he traveled with a group of wandering ascetics and from legend we can kind of see that these groups of shamans lived primarily as hunter gatherers. Its true that many of the acetic wanderers did long religious fast, but when they did eat, it was food that was foraged out of the forest, and legend has it that they ate raw meat as a staple. Perhaps when the Buddha was living with that group of wild men, he may of ate raw meat himself.

I don't think of myself as a traditional Buddhist, I Identify more with the wandering acetics that inspired Buddha to his enlightenment. I think that there are many people can find completeness  in following a more traditional buddist practice and I think that's wonderfull, but I have chosen to be like Herman Hesse's Siddhartha and to follow my own path to enlightenment.

Organic down to earth Buddism can be a way to spiritual liberation, but I have become sceptical of the way that Buddhism became standardized and regulated within the Chinese dynasties over the centuries since Buddha had lived. There are lost tribes of people who lived a completely different version of Buddhism. There were nomadic groups of people who followed the Buddhas teachings long before budism ever entered China. There is evidence that blond haired blue eyed wandering Nordic tribes had their own form of budism that was much more free living, but they were to busy living the good life to right sutras or live as monks. So the free living Buddhist tribes faded away while the empire of China created a more repressive buttoned down version for their subjects to live under,  that most people consider the only authentic form of Budism. Buddha himself lived a life that is far different from his modern day followers, so those who follow the words of the sutras without living as he had lived are not experiencing the enlightenment he spoke of.  In my far out openion

In regards to Vitalis, I have already seen the potential for Vitalis to be a spokesman for the raw paleo movement. I think his story of being a failed vegan and finding rejuvenation on raw animal foods is just what people in the health world need to hear.
He seems sane enough by my standards, I was thinking that someone like him could be made respectable and as long as we had some additional specialist and  scientific advocates that were respectable and could back up what our gurus say, then its a good start..


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Offline Nation

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 03:11:48 am »
I've lived both in China and Taiwan(I will be going back to China in March btw).

Is grass-fed meat hard to get in China and Taiwan?

Offline Brother

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 06:17:10 pm »
@sabre. I am happy for you, I really am. My reservations against religion is not against religion or its ideas by themselves. Rather I abhor organised religion because it tends to suck every grain of spirituality the religions primary teachers talked about out of their respective religions. I can think of no exceptions to this rule. Islam. Fantastic religion when you read about it in the Quran. but then you look at Mecca and the behaviour of the salafi/wahabi preachers that represent and teach Islam it comes of as barbaric and backwards. etc..

Daniel Vitalis, if he continues his path and the succes he has, could potentially end up a spiritual teacher. A good one too probably. The problem starts once the teacher is no more and the students rave and argue about what the guy had said. This is where religion is born. Someone sells spirituality, but the dumb fucks he talks to turn it into a religion full of rigid rules and overinterpreting the spirit of the message.

Again, I have studied Islam intensely so I can draw some good paralels to this mechanism from Islam. Punishment for theft in Islam. Most think it is dismembering. Its not. According to the Quran in the original arabic, the thief is to have "taken from his hands (the arabi word actually means 3 or more hands, if we are going by cutting as the correct translation, which creates a curious problem since only mutants can recieve the punishment apparently). It is not to be taken litterally. If someone steals, takes an equal amounts of resource from him or force him to work untill the dept is paid. "take from his hands", right? Not 'take his hands!'.

The teachers idea was obvious. Justice. The thief is punished and publicly humiliated and the victim get compensated. Thats justice. Cutting of a thiefs hands are a great injustice because it may have been poverty that made him steal to begin with (society failed him) and he may be a main provider. By taking his hand, you unjustly punish his wife and children. But thats how "religion" works. Great and just spiritual ideas are turned into rigid rules that nobody can question and if they do, they are considered kaffir (hostile unbeliver) and become a persona non grata in their community.

Another example is the islamic 'poor tax' (sadaqat). The Quran tells people that their sadaqat should be "the excess" meaning, give from what you dont need yourself. Scholars pulled a 2.5% tax out of their ass which is now the rule. But that defies the logic of the Quran. Muslims are told that this will expose people who are stingy. A 2.5% tax exposes nothing. But if people are free to give as they please, it soon becomes obvious who gives willingly and who doesnt give at all. Again, religion kills the spiritual ideas.

I could go on and on, but will spare you now. In the honest individual religion is a wonderfull thing. to the large mass, it is a disaster.

edit: Ok, one more thing. To me the litmus test is humility. All religion teaches people to approach the world humble. Thats the one thing people high on organised religion rarely are.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 08:14:26 pm »
Except that it does. Only it doesnt call it like that. Take a look at the history of tibet e.g. I would call that a caste system, but 'brutal theocracy' works equally well if we are going to argue semantics.

Tibet history does not equal Buddhist history.Now,you're talking politics.Not Buddhism.Tibet is old news anyway.It's now part of China.Again,Buddhism does not employ a caste system.
You need to study this in a more profound and honest way if you really want to learn something.A student of Islam doesn't make you an expert on Buddhism.All you're doing at this point is mis-informing/confusing the readers on this forum.
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Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 08:29:19 pm »

Organic down to earth Buddism can be a way to spiritual liberation, but I have become sceptical of the way that Buddhism became standardized and regulated within the Chinese dynasties over the centuries since Buddha had lived. There are lost tribes of people who lived a completely different version of Buddhism. There were nomadic groups of people who followed the Buddhas teachings long before budism ever entered China. There is evidence that blond haired blue eyed wandering Nordic tribes had their own form of budism that was much more free living, but they were to busy living the good life to right sutras or live as monks. So the free living Buddhist tribes faded away while the empire of China created a more repressive buttoned down version for their subjects to live under,  that most people consider the only authentic form of Budism. Buddha himself lived a life that is far different from his modern day followers, so those who follow the words of the sutras without living as he had lived are not experiencing the enlightenment he spoke of.  In my far out openion

I understand how you feel.Enlightenment is to achieve a certain sense of freedom.Unfortunately,because discipline must come before freedom,there can be a feeling of "restriction" or "repression" while practicing.It could be considered a "necessary evil".It's one of the reasons why the hippie movement never got anywhere spiritually.Kind of like a "fake" freedom or false sense of freedom.No problem,you can still practice without worrying about the Chinese influence ;)
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Offline King Salmon

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 08:33:38 pm »
Is grass-fed meat hard to get in China and Taiwan?

Actually,good meats imported from Australia are available.
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Offline Brother

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Re: Vitalis on Raw Vegan Diet
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 09:34:48 pm »
Tibet history does not equal Buddhist history.Now,you're talking politics.Not Buddhism.

Politics and religion are of eachother. Especially in a theocracy. What strains of buddhism has done through history is not to be ignored to protect your feelings about the system in its ideal state. Dont listen to what it says. Look at what it does is my basic philosophy on these matters. You may disagree, but it does not make me a disinformant.

 

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