Question for Iguana - Instincto carbs

[Iguana]

We don't have to look back we have to look foreward.

Is the Paleolithic era forward in the future?  Should we rename this forum "Raw Future Forum"?

Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates.

And maybe it could NOW be better to drink cow milk? How do you reduce the supply of carbohydrates? (Supposing your are a real paleo hominid, not even knowing what carbohydrates are.)

Cheers
François

[TylerDurden]

Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.

  You know, Iguana, every now  and then, you come up with some very pertinent points I could never have possibly come up with myself. I will use this excerpt in an upcoming mega-essay on the benefits of raw foods/disadvantages of cooked foods, on rawpaleodiet.com.

[Susan]

Should we rename this forum "Raw Future Forum"?

A very good idea.

Susan

[Susan]

And maybe it could NOW be better to drink cow milk? How do you reduce the supply of carbohydrates? (Supposing your are a real paleo hominid, not even knowing what carbohydrates are.)

I'm a little bit irritated about your questions. What has cow milk to do with raw eating?  I thought we agree that diarys are not suitable for humans.

Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore  ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.

Eating raw is a personal experiment and we have mentioned it before: one has to observe very acurate what is happening with body, soul and spirit. In theory instinctiv raw eating is logical and plausible. But maybe our instincts are confused because of deficient imprinting in our childhood. So it can be very useful to use intuition and intellect too.

[Bronwen]

Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore  ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.

Hi Susan

What sources of carbs do you eat now? i gather from your posts that you do include some carbs, but you feel better on mainly meat and fat sources.
I am in the process of exploring other carb sources and reducng my dependence on excess sweet cultivated fruit, esp bananas.

Thanks, Bronwen

[Iguana]

 You know, Iguana, every now  and then, you come up with some very pertinent points I could never have possibly come up with myself. I will use this excerpt in an upcoming mega-essay on the benefits of raw foods/disadvantages of cooked foods, on rawpaleodiet.com.

It seems you underestimate yourself. Anyway most of my points such as this one come from GCB’s findings, even if he didn’t express it exactly like me.

I'm a little bit irritated about your questions. What has cow milk to do with raw eating?   I thought we agree that diarys are not suitable for humans.

Sure, we agree on that. It was a metaphor of your paragraph “We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates” intended to show the similar way of thinking between admitting we can arbitrarily reduce the supply of carbohydrates and introducing dairy in our nutrition. We don’t eat dairy because it’s not a typical  Paleolithic food (amongst other reasons), so reducing the supply of carbs is neither a Paleolithic thing since prehistoric hominids had no idea what carbs are about and therefore they could not reduce their supply.

Doing so is a typical dietician approach and hence it’s diametrically opposed to the very basic views of instinctive paleo nutrition. In the latter, we try to avoid any interference of current scientific knowledge about food composition in a bid to eat as much as possible like our ancestors did before they knew anything about carbs, proteins, fat, vitamins, enzymes, antinutrients, minerals and so on.

Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore   ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.

I don’t eat much tropical fruits since I’m here in SW France and I didn’t notice any significant change in my health except that I felt rather better when I could eat a lot of very ripe tropical fruits such as papayas, mangoes, plantains, pineapples. But some other parameters  have changed almost simultaneously and it’s difficult to infer any correlation. For example I get cold feet if I’m the whole day behind my computer while I don’t have this problem after a long walk.

Eating raw is a personal experiment and we have mentioned it before: one has to observe very acurate what is happening with body, soul and spirit. In theory instinctiv raw eating is logical and plausible. But maybe our instincts are confused because of deficient imprinting in our childhood. So it can be very useful to use intuition and intellect too.

As I said, food is by far not the only factor (especially for "soul and spirit"!), so any such conclusions on a single anecdotal case are hazardous. Standard cooked dieters may eat tropical fruits, so if tropical fruits were forbidden in raw paleo diet, I would immediately return to cooked diet to be able to eat tropical fruits! I’ve eaten a lot of them for several decades and I feel great with it (and no tooth decay at all). Of course, we must also eat enough raw animal food, but for me the balance is automatic and totally instinctive: I feel when I have eaten enough fruits and thus I look for something else such as vegetables, meat, fish, shellfish or eggs.

Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.

Cheers
François

[Hanna]

Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.

Sorry, but IMO any "detox" interpretations are irresponsible and mostly wrong. Never tolerate any negative symptoms; modify your diet in a way that makes the symptoms disappear!

[Iguana]

Could you explain a bit more? Why is it irresponsible and mostly wrong? How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?

If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available? Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health? Would you interrupt a bacterial illness by taking antibiotics? Would you go to a dermatologist in case you get rashes? What do you think comes out of the nose when we have a cold? How do you explain we can get colds in hot tropical climates?

Cheers
François

[Hanna]

>>How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?

Experience and experimentation. Listen to instinctive stops; reduce/increase experimentally the amounts of certain foods you eat (including fruit, of course), experiment with your diet!

>>If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available?

No. Instinctos (and other raw fooders as well) age visibly. If they would detox all Maillard molecules, they wouldn´t age.

>>Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health?

When I´m susceptible to infections, my diet is wrong (too much sugar, too little animal food...).

[TylerDurden]

The body naturally produces a very few advanced glycation end products/AGEs quite aside from the intake of AGEs via cooked foods, so even rawists are subject to "wear and tear" even if they don't take in any Maillard reaction products via foods - but because rawists do not absorb as many toxxins via their foods, they age at a slower rate than cooked-foodists, which is why RVAFers so often remark that middle-aged RVAFers at raw food gatherings look 10 years younger than people their own age.
Plus, AGEs even exist in sizeable quantities in raw meats from unhealthy animals, such as intensively-farmed grainfed cattle/chickens - I recall one study showing AGEs level  for grainfed chicken.

[Iguana]

>>If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available?

No. Instinctos (and other raw fooders as well) age visibly. If they would detox all Maillard molecules, they wouldn´t age.

Every plant and animal on this planet ages, it’s a natural process even in absence of Maillard’s molecules. Wild animals age and die, they’re not immortals.

>>Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health?

When I´m susceptible to infections, my diet is wrong (too much sugar, too little animal food...).

The bacterial and viral “infections” remain perfectly controlled, benign and safe under raw paleo instinctive nutrition. They runaway and become dangerous or even fatal only if the intake of cooked and Neolithic food continues. This is a fact that has been verified thousands of times and that I’ve been able to verify myself a lot of times during a 24 years period.

But, yes, in such a situation, I agree, experience shows it’s better to avoid the intake of concentrate sources of sugar such as dates, dried fruits or honey and eat more vegetables and animal food if hungry.

[Inger]

About detox..

I have found out that I never get "detox-reactions" from wild berries or papaya. How strange is that? And they should be the most strong "healers" by any means?! Also wild edibles/herbs. Never got a "detox" reaction from them. Ever.
But from other kind of cultivated fruits.. I can get a lot of symptoms, especially my teeths.. ugh.
I think detox is very often NOT detox, but the opposite..
Another idea. I believe our bodies loose certain enzyms when we eat only raw for a while, enzyms to digest coocked foods. So that is why you feel shitty when you eat something coocked. Not because it is a poison.
BUT, I do feel that raw is optional! Of course, as many vitamins etc. (also kreatin, BTW) get partly destroyed by heat. I feel the best on raw. But is might be wrong to say that coocked is poison etc. Look how many people are very healthy and live long lives and eat coocked foods.
Of course I believe raw is superior for healing. I do eat raw myself mostly. But I am not religious about it.
If I eat a rare steak, slightly seared, and thereafter raw wild berries or papaya, I have no troubles, everything is perfect.
If I eat the steak and thereafter cultivated fruits.. I get hurting teehts and inflammation. This I have experienced not only once.
So why is it that these healthy berries do not "detox" the coocked meats, as cultivated fruits do?
Something is wrong here.

Maybe fructose is the real poison, and veg. oils like too much nuts etc...

Inger

[Iguana]

 

So why is it that these healthy berries do not "detox" the coocked meats, as cultivated fruits do?

Because, as you say:

I think detox is very often NOT detox, but the opposite..

 

[Hanna]

>>Wild animals age

This shows that even wild animals do not "detox" maillard molecules (= advanced glycation end products/AGEs). AGEs make you age! Read the scientific literature. As long as you age, you do not detox AGEs.

>>But, yes, in such a situation, I agree, experience shows it’s better to avoid the intake of concentrate sources of sugar such as dates, dried fruits or honey and eat more vegetables and animal food if hungry.

You did not understand me. I spoke about PREVENTING infections, not about curing them.

Edit: I mean detox in the sense used by instinctos, i. e. detox of all "denatured" molecules and AGEs which we ingested while we still ate cooked food, and their replacement by "raw" molecules. If this were possible, any 60 year old person who has detoxed should look like a 20 year old again or at the very least should not age further since any AGE in the body would be detoxed.

[TylerDurden]

I'm always amazed at how people can try to claim that cooked-foodists live long lives and ascribe that to a cooked diet. It's such a falsehood. I mean, the only reason why such people live long is they are under far less stress than previous generations, have access to advanced surgical techniques/drugs etc. which get rid of things like obesity or degenerated bones(I'm thinking of stomach-reduction surgery/artificial hips etc.) and so on. Plus, most such people are actually worse off than long-term raw-foodists their own age, as AGEs/advanced glycation end products worsen standard age-related conditions such as arthritis etc. I know of some cooked-foodists who only turned to RVAF diets solely in order to reduce age-related decline(as opposed to really serious health-problems) and they greatly benefitted from cutting out cooked foods.

[Löwenherz]

I'm always amazed at how people can try to claim that cooked-foodists live long lives and ascribe that to a cooked diet. It's such a falsehood. I mean, the only reason why such people live long is they are under far less stress than previous generations, have access to advanced surgical techniques/drugs etc. ...

Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.

And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

>>Wild animals age

This shows that even wild animals do not "detox" maillard molecules (= advanced glycation end products/AGEs). AGEs make you age! Read the scientific literature. As long as you age, you do not detox AGEs.

I don’t think it’s so simple ! AGEs accelerate aging, but

At present, the biological basis of ageing is unknown. Most scientists agree that substantial variability exists in the rates of ageing across different species, and that is to a large extent is genetically based.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing Moreover, wild animals in an unpolluted environment don’t have any significant amount of AGEs in their diet.
 

You did not understand me. I spoke about PREVENTING infections, not about curing them.

In instinctive raw paleo nutrition infectious diseases are considered beneficial since they remain benign and perfectly controled while apparently allowing the body to get read of toxins. So we have no reason to prevent them: on the contrary they are welcome.

Wounds never get infected, they heal without any need for disinfectant. In the 24 years since I eat instincto I’ve never used any disinfectant and never got a single wound infected.

Edit: I mean detox in the sense used by instinctos, i. e. detox of all "denatured" molecules and AGEs which we ingested while we still ate cooked food, and their replacement by "raw" molecules. If this were possible, any 60 year old person who has detoxed should look like a 20 year old again or at the very least should not age further since any AGE in the body would be detoxed.

See Wikipedia page linked above and specially the chapter about theories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing#Theories  AGEs are not even mentionnned.

[MoonStalkeR]

Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.

And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...

Löwenherz

Good point. People seemingly do well on garbage, even adolescents who eat little besides chips, big macs, and soda. Their symptoms usually become prominent when they're 40-50.

[Susan]

Sorry, but IMO any "detox" interpretations are irresponsible and mostly wrong. Never tolerate any negative symptoms; modify your diet in a way that makes the symptoms disappear.

>>How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?

Experience and experimentation. Listen to instinctive stops; reduce/increase experimentally the amounts of certain foods you eat (including fruit, of course), experiment with your diet.

That's my opinion too.

[rawcarni]

It was a metaphor of your paragraph “We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates” intended to show the similar way of thinking between admitting we can arbitrarily reduce the supply of carbohydrates and introducing dairy in our nutrition. We don’t eat dairy because it’s not a typical  Paleolithic food (amongst other reasons), so reducing the supply of carbs is neither a Paleolithic thing since prehistoric hominids had no idea what carbs are about and therefore they could not reduce their supply.

Doing so is a typical dietician approach and hence it’s diametrically opposed to the very basic views of instinctive paleo nutrition. In the latter, we try to avoid any interference of current scientific knowledge about food composition in a bid to eat as much as possible like our ancestors did before they knew anything about carbs, proteins, fat, vitamins, enzymes, antinutrients, minerals and so on.

 I’ve eaten a lot of them for several decades and I feel great with it (and no tooth decay at all). Of course, we must also eat enough raw animal food, but for me the balance is automatic and totally instinctive: I feel when I have eaten enough fruits and thus I look for something else such as vegetables, meat, fish, shellfish or eggs.

Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.

Cheers
François

The most basic thing I just don't understand what you don't consider is: we don't live in a "paleo environment" anymore. We have an abundant food suüply 24/7 (at least in the western world), we breathe polluted air, use computers etc. And the fruits we eat today are of course neolithic food. So how can we say it is possible to rely on our instinct?

I tried fruit and as I reported didnt do well on them. I still doubt it was some "detox" reaction, as I had the same symptoms when trying raw veganism after some years on a vegan diet (where I would of course also eat fruit).
So the conclusion for me would be that sth. in fruit is giving me some inflammation (or whatever it is...).

I wonder: The more plant matter I leave out, the better I feel. So maybe it's really more about what you don't eat than what you do eat.

[Iguana]

The most basic thing I just don't understand what you don't consider is: we don't live in a "paleo environment" anymore. We have an abundant food suüply 24/7 (at least in the western world), we breathe polluted air, use computers etc. And the fruits we eat today are of course neolithic food. So how can we say it is possible to rely on our instinct?

Anyway almost everyone still rely on instinct to eat if hungry, to drink when thirsty, to rest when tired, to lay down when sleepy, to have intercourse with the loved persons, etc. Of course, our alimentary instinct doesn’t work properly at all with cooked, processed and typically Neolithic classes of food such as animal milk and cereals. It doesn’t work perfectly neither with modern intensively selected, cultivated fruits, but that’s the case as well with meat from domesticated animals. So we have to try to find food as wild as possible, be careful with modern fruits and meat; furthermore we should totally avoid “industrial” meat, fruits and vegetables.

There were fruits in the Paleolithic era as there were animals. Both were different then the cultivated and domesticated ones we have today (only wild animals, wild seafood, wild plants and fruits remain roughly identical, at least for some because most species are in constant evolution).

Yes we have abundant supply 24/7 and that’s why we better limit ourselves to two meals a day, for example. The practice of instinctive nutrition doesn’t mean that we totally rely on our instinct, eat whatever we find appetizing at any moment. We also use our intelligence to avoid industrial and Neolithic food, to limit the number of meals, to limit number of different stuff eaten at each meal, amongst other things.

The fact that air is polluted, that we use computer, that we drive cars, that we fly in airplanes has nothing to do with nutrition, and instinctive nutrition concerns nutrition only. There are other natural factors of health, such as clean air, sun, exercise, sleep, social and love relations, etc.

I tried fruit and as I reported didnt do well on them. I still doubt it was some "detox" reaction, as I had the same symptoms when trying raw veganism after some years on a vegan diet (where I would of course also eat fruit).
So the conclusion for me would be that sth. in fruit is giving me some inflammation (or whatever it is...).

I wonder: The more plant matter I leave out, the better I feel. So maybe it's really more about what you don't eat than what you do eat.

Perhaps. But be careful, feeling fine at the moment doesn’t necessarily insure long term health. Another point is that you may have eaten ways too much plant food during your vegan time and that you’re are still missing animal food. So, you may be better at the moment with animal food only and it may take a long time till your nutritional equilibrium is reestablished. But that shouldn’t last for ever, very probably. 

Cheers
François     

[van]

  I've mentioned this before, but it may help here.  Years ago when I visited the instinctive center in France (five times over as many years) I started eating raw tuna.  I wasn't yet able to think about eating meat the first time I went.  I had eaten raw tuna at sushi bars before, but only infrequently.  When I returned I ate it often, maybe every other day.  For at least a month I had cups of waste material in the toilet.  This after years of colonics and all kinds of intestinal cleansing and twenty years on a raw diet.    For all of my childhood and years after, tuna was the food my family used most often.  I probably ate it three times a week my whole life till I turned raw.   So from my point of view, experience,  I have witnessed first hand how the body will exchange building blocks, and how cleansing raw protein is.   
  As far a reactions from fruit:  I think a lot has to do with where people are in their tolerance to sugar, in their diet,  period.  Typically, adulterated fruits are the highest in sugar, hence the ability to sell them.  As we age, our ability to control blood sugar weakens or lessens.  See Rosedale's articles on insulin and leptin resistance for a more detailed account on how powerfully they affect our hormones and hence our entire system.    Any excess sugar feeds all sort of things beyond candida.  And we all come from various backgrounds which have left us with less than intact healthy intestinal bacteria.  So each of our reactions to sugar will of course be different.   Usually those do the best with high sugar or fruit diets are also those who are very very active, and are able to burn off excess sugar in the blood before it can cause hormonal problems or feed things like candida.    So as we age, I believe our needs or tolerances change.     I look back on the high fruit diets I used to think were healthy and shudder at the thought.  But then I really acted out my beliefs to my own detriment.

[Löwenherz]

...Usually those do the best with high sugar or fruit diets are also those who are very very active, and are able to burn off excess sugar in the blood before it can cause hormonal problems or feed things like candida. 

This is a very important point, IMO. Nearly all people who eat large amounts of fruit are running everyday, some of them even marathons. Running, running, running like crazy.

When I was eating high amounts of high sugar fruits, I had always the feeling that I HAVE to run. Somehow this "motivation" to run wasn't very pleasant, it felt unnatural. Because I believed all the natural hygiene nonsense (I started my raw food journey 1999 after reading books from Arnold Ehret and Helmut Wandmaker) I never had the idea that all the fructose acts like a poison in my body. Running seems to be a good way to get rid of the excess sugar. Look at this durianriders - fruitarian. He needs 12 hours sleep (due to sugar overload) and 6-8 hours of bicycling (due to sugar overload).

Löwenherz

[magnetic]

Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.

And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...

Löwenherz

Well there are a number of factors.  Cooking is just one of the negative factors of modern (postmodern?) society but eating lots of carbohydrates and glucose rich foods, especially refined foods is another major factor.  Simply cutting out such foods would probably do wonders for increasing health and longevity, apart from cooking, though I think eating raw is even better.

[magnetic]

Good point. People seemingly do well on garbage, even adolescents who eat little besides chips, big macs, and soda. Their symptoms usually become prominent when they're 40-50.

I think that there were researchers who noted a time lag for the effects of western foods introduced into "primitive" cultures, of 20 years or more.  I suppose there is also a time lag within cultures infected by the refined and cooked food diets as well.

But symptoms start earlier than you think, don't forget about tooth decay.  Your teeth are telling you something far in advance of other problems...

Ryan