Hello RAW-PALEO-WORLD!! Party ON!

[Löwenherz]

Dear Raw-Paleo-Friends,

I'm happy to be a new member of this forum. It's surely the best place for modern hunter gatherers in cyberspace! ;-) I'm 38 years old, male, living in Germany, my favourite food is fatty wild boar from the black forrest. This is my 12th year of raw living. My journey into raw food began in September 1999, inspired by Arnold Ehret and Norman Walker. It was a raw vegan diet and WOW, what an exciting change in my life. All my numerous ailments disappeared quickly. Of course, the raw vegan era didn't last long for me, as most of you can comprehend.

Here are some stages of my raw journey:

- high fat raw vegan
- low fat raw vegan
- fruitarianism
- instincto
- raw version of "natural eating" (Geoff Bond)
- primal diet (Aajonus)
- cooked Atkins and cooked zero carb (a short excursion back into the cooked food world)
- RAW ZERO CARB

Some years ago I had really great email-conversations with TylerDurden. Thank you very much, Geoff!! That was before I followed an raw zero carb beef diet like an idiot in 2007. I got ill like never before, I was near death with heart disease, extremely inflamed gi tract, mental illness etc. I will report about this disaster later. I needed THREE years to recover and still can't believe it myself.

I needed much longer than Tyler to realize that RAW PALEO LOW CARB is the way to go for me. I discarded all my sweet fruity tropical illusionary ideas and projects after they all miserably ended in physical and mental exhaustion in south and south east asia.

Most important for me is to avoid every gram of grain fed meat like the plaque! I have not eaten grains since 1998. My body is now extremely intolerant to any gram of grain and any raw vegan diet is definetely better for me than eating grain fed or grain finished meat.

Some things I have learned in the last years of my raw life:

1. Cooking is indeed bad for my body, even if nearly 7,000,000,000 other people are cooking.

2. Grains and dairy in any form (raw and cooked) are the two major health threats for my body.

3. Plant fats can't substitute animal fats.

4. High fruits consumption is disastrous in the long run. Unfortunately I needed many years to realize this as i was addicted to sweet colorful tropical fruits.

5. Wild animal food is superior.

6. We are all brainwashed regarding health. Bananas, olive oil, whole grains, soy etc. are NOT healthy foods for human beings.

7. The fate of the animals we eat is our own fate.

I still don't know if it is OK in the long-run to eat meat from grass fed domesticated animals or if it is obligatory for perfect health to rely solely on meat from truely wild animals. I'm looking forward to discuss this topic with you.

I am going to organize a RAW PALEO PARTY in southern europe as soon as possible and I hope to see you soon!

Best wishes

Löwenherz

[goodsamaritan]

wow, welcome!

[Haai]

Where in southern europe you thinking?

[Löwenherz]

Where in southern europe you thinking?

It should be a nice place in natural sourroundings that is easily accessible. I have found a wonderful place in Portugal, some kilometres north of Faro Airport in the hills. We have fantastic seafood there and very low prices for food and accommodations. Unfortunately 100% grass fed meat is hardly available and wild meat is scarce.

So, my idea now is to find a better place in southern france, department Aude or Pyrenees Orientales. Next week I will be in Perpignan and hope that some forum members here from France can help me finding good suppliers of high quality animal food... With many airports the region is easily accessible (airport Perpignan, Carcassonne, Beziers and Montpellier...)

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

I’m in Hautes Pyrenees between Toulouse and Biarritz (300 km from Narbonne) so I’m not really able to help you, unless you come to see me. I have a source of game meat, but there’s not enough for several people. However GCB is currently in Perpignan, so you may meet him there if you send him a PM.

Welcome to this forum anyway!

François

[achillezzz]

WELLCOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! 

[Löwenherz]

I’m in Hautes Pyrenees between Toulouse and Biarritz (300 km from Narbonne) so I’m not really able to help you, unless you come to see me. I have a source of game meat, but there’s not enough for several people. However GCB is currently in Perpignan, so you may meet him there if you send him a PM.
Welcome to this forum anyway!
François

Thank you, Francois!
I would really be happy to meet GCB. His book is a great piece of work, it helped me to overcome the raw vegan dogma (circa 2001/2002). I have nice memories of my stays at Montramé. It's a really inspiring place. The whole chateau smelled like durian. hehe. It would be interesting to know what GCB thinks today about eating regularly meat from grass fed domesticated animals ...

In Germany are online directories available with hunters who want to sell game meat. Wild meat in total abundance everywhere (but mostly extremely lean). Are there comparable directories available in France?

How would you translate "100% grass fed + 100% grass finished"? "Engraissement au patûrage" is not precise enough, I think. This doesn't mean grass finished in France, right? Ohh, I'm not good at French yet... Sorry. Most farmers I contacted told me that their beef (Salers etc.) are finished on grains.

Löwenherz

[Nation]

Can you elaborate on your disastrous 'raw zero carb beef' phase? Did you get ill because the beef was grain-fed or because you were not eating any carb?

How is your diet today different than it was during that phase, i mean what do you think is the one change in your diet that made the most difference?

[King Salmon]

So what carbs are you eating?

[Bronwen]

Welcome!
Interesting post youve of your history - very similar to mine, and I think probably similar to a lot of folk who have finally found their way to raw paleo in its varying degrees. I still eat a sort of mid-way carb rawpaleo: fruit meal mornings, animal as second meal. But huge doubts plaguing me about how good so muc h fruit is ....or not....as I seem to be hearing from a lot of people's experiences. I don't seem to be having any problems from it....but then most of the problems seem to be something that can also develop long term.

What sort of problems did you develop from a high tropical fruit diet? Maybe there are signs I should be aware of, that I may be experiencing and don't realise they are warning signs. The only warning sign at the moment is something more subliminal saying 'maybe all the bananas aren't that good after all'!!

I am in South AFrica....probably wouldn't be able to join a raw paleo party in Europe....but maybe one day we could organise a raw paleo safari in South Africa and you could all try out some of the wild game here!

[Löwenherz]

Can you elaborate on your disastrous 'raw zero carb beef' phase? Did you get ill because the beef was grain-fed or because you were not eating any carb?

How is your diet today different than it was during that phase, i mean what do you think is the one change in your diet that made the most difference?

Some of the problems during my zero carb beef diet: Extreme digestive problems, inflammation, frequent diarrhoea, liquid stools, red slime, constipation, cramps, sharp pain, extreme dehydration, extreme thirst, heart problems, palpitations, pain in my chest, was getting worse every month not better, high blood pressure, anxiety, aggressions, vertigo, unable to work, insomnia, paranoid ideas, difficulties concentrating, new cavities, tapeworms, paleness, unable to do any sport,  etc.

So called "adaption" never set in. After this period I was a wreck. It was the worst and most stupid experiment I have ever done. I couldn't eat anything anymore. That was 2007. A year I will never forget.

Today I know that most of the problems have been caused by GRAINFED meat. Apparently I had eaten some very nasty bacterias and other bad things from diseased animals.

Some of the problems have been caused by zero carb, for example dehydration and sleeplessness.

The very hard white solid lamb fat I have eaten clogged my whole system, even my ears. I never had vertigo before (caused by clogged ears I have read). Today I would never ever touch such hard and toxic animal fats again.

On some days the protein ratio could have been way too high on other days the fat.

Today I eat eclusively truely wild game meat or 100% grass fed meat beside small amounts of fruits and salads (leafy greens). Very seldom I eat some vegetables like carrots. For me it's better to fast than to eat meat from diseased animals. All grainfed animals are diseased. This year I will start my own farming and hunting. I don't want to buy food from anyone anymore in the future.

Löwenherz

[miles]

Some of the problems during my zero carb beef diet: Extreme digestive problems, inflammation, frequent diarrhoea, liquid stools, red slime, constipation, cramps, sharp pain, extreme dehydration, extreme thirst, heart problems, palpitations, pain in my chest, was getting worse every month not better, high blood pressure, anxiety, aggressions, vertigo, unable to work, insomnia, paranoid ideas, difficulties concentrating, new cavities, tapeworms, paleness, unable to do any sport,  etc.

So called "adaption" never set in. After this period I was a wreck. It was the worst and most stupid experiment I have ever done. I couldn't eat anything anymore. That was 2007. A year I will never forget.

Today I know that most of the problems have been caused by GRAINFED meat. Apparently I had eaten some very nasty bacterias and other bad things from diseased animals.

Some of the problems have been caused by zero carb, for example dehydration and sleeplessness.

The very hard white solid lamb fat I have eaten clogged my whole system, even my ears. I never had vertigo before (caused by clogged ears I have read). Today I would never ever touch such hard and toxic animal fats again.

On some days the protein ratio could have been way too high on other days the fat.

Today I eat eclusively truely wild game meat or 100% grass fed meat beside small amounts of fruits and salads (leafy greens). Very seldom I eat some vegetables like carrots. For me it's better to fast than to eat meat from diseased animals. All grainfed animals are diseased. This year I will start my own farming and hunting. I don't want to buy food from anyone anymore in the future.

Löwenherz

Sounds TO ME(mufukers)like your problem was eating too much fat, especially without chewing it thoroughly to get the saliva mixed in(which makes it taste better too).

[Löwenherz]

Sounds TO ME(mufukers)like your problem was eating too much fat, especially without chewing it thoroughly to get the saliva mixed in(which makes it taste better too).

Yes, I think you are right, on some days the fat ratio was really too high.

But THIS crappy fat I have eaten was completely undigestible. Even after hours of chewing and salivating...

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

So what carbs are you eating?

Non-tropical fruits, small salads and every now and then a carrot or other vegetables.

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

Thank you, Francois!
I would really be happy to meet GCB. His book is a great piece of work, it helped me to overcome the raw vegan dogma (circa 2001/2002). I have nice memories of my stays at Montramé. It's a really inspiring place. The whole chateau smelled like durian. hehe. It would be interesting to know what GCB thinks today about eating regularly meat from grass fed domesticated animals ...

He thinks it’s ok, but we must be sure not only that it’s really 100% grass fed, but also that the animals did not received  antibiotics nor medicine. Wild game meat is preferable and I think we can eat as much as we want of it, as often as we want. But eating regularly (every day or almost) meat from domesticated animals, even 100% grass fed, could be dangerous in the long run and he thinks that’s the reason of Nicole’s cancer.

Having on the table everyday (or almost everyday) some animal food is highly recommended. I have seen him eating every evening some animal food. But it’s varied, not everyday the same, so one day it can be wild boar, the next day eggs, next day scallops, next day mackerel, for example. He eats organs as well. 

In Germany are online directories available with hunters who want to sell game meat. Wild meat in total abundance everywhere (but mostly extremely lean). Are there comparable directories available in France?

No, I don’t think there’s anything like that, but I’m in France since 2 and half years only. I lived in Lausanne before.

How would you translate "100% grass fed + 100% grass finished"? "Engraissement au patûrage" is not precise enough, I think. This doesn't mean grass finished in France, right? Ohh, I'm not good at French yet... Sorry. Most farmers I contacted told me that their beef (Salers etc.) are finished on grains.

I think not only finished on grain, but also fed hot dried stuff (wheat or else) or even cooked leftovers and also given vaccinations and medicine. I don’t know any farmer producing suitable quality meat, except a friend who just started last year and apparently another sheep stockbreeder near Nice. The address of the latter is on Paleocru, but the forum is down at the moment following a server crash. 100 % grass fed would translate into something like “nourri exclusivement à l’herbe”, but it’s not much used since it barely exists in France!

Hope you can contact and meet GCB. Phone me when you are in Perpignan!

François

[Löwenherz]

Welcome!
Interesting post youve of your history - very similar to mine, and I think probably similar to a lot of folk who have finally found their way to raw paleo in its varying degrees. I still eat a sort of mid-way carb rawpaleo: fruit meal mornings, animal as second meal. But huge doubts plaguing me about how good so muc h fruit is ....or not....as I seem to be hearing from a lot of people's experiences. I don't seem to be having any problems from it....but then most of the problems seem to be something that can also develop long term.

What sort of problems did you develop from a high tropical fruit diet? Maybe there are signs I should be aware of, that I may be experiencing and don't realise they are warning signs. The only warning sign at the moment is something more subliminal saying 'maybe all the bananas aren't that good after all'!!

I am in South AFrica....probably wouldn't be able to join a raw paleo party in Europe....but maybe one day we could organise a raw paleo safari in South Africa and you could all try out some of the wild game here!

Hi Bronwen,

I have eaten a lot of fruit for many years without big problems. I think the damaging effects need some years to become visible.

My problems if I eat too much fruit in the long-run: Thinning hair, receding gums, yellow teeth, weak teeth, enamel loss, feeling very cold (in winter), need of much more sleep, bad sleep, no sex drive, joint problems, emaciation (if only fruit), bady body composition, probably hormonal imbalance, dry skin, accelerated aging (!), fat maldigestion, gas, bloating, unnaturally high longing for sunshine

and HORRIBLE SKIN.

Too much fruit in the long-run seems to age or destroy my skin!

I have seen these problems in many long-term fruitarians.

Löwenherz

[Bronwen]

My problems if I eat too much fruit in the long-run: Thinning hair, receding gums, yellow teeth, weak teeth, enamel loss, feeling very cold (in winter), need of much more sleep, bad sleep, no sex drive, joint problems, emaciation (if only fruit), bady body composition, probably hormonal imbalance, dry skin, accelerated aging (!), fat maldigestion, gas, bloating, unnaturally high longing for sunshine

and HORRIBLE SKIN.

Thanks - very interesting. Over my 7 years of being predominantly raw vegan I went from high fat raw to low fat raw, as you did, gradually increasing fruit. But could never maintain it without 'lapsing' back to increased raw fat/veg or even cooked at times. So probably haven't had extended continuous periods on high fruit.
But can certainly identify with many of those things you mentioned to a greater or lesser degree, though i realise now that in the past I just accepted these as part of my body-typing and assuming I was in pretty good health. Also convincing myself thatsome of the symptoms (eg. teeth) were because I couldn't maintain LFRV/high fruit, and it was the constant switching that was causing them.

But since including meat once a day, and limiting fruit to once a day, I have started feeling much stronger, more energised, sleeping less and more deeply, teeth less sensitive. And suddenly this is raising huge questions for me.....if this change is making me feel like this in just one month, would a greater change make even more of a difference? Could I feel even 'healthier'  than I assumed I was in the past? That would be fab! This will be the year of finding out!

[Löwenherz]

...
But since including meat once a day, and limiting fruit to once a day, I have started feeling much stronger, more energised, sleeping less and more deeply, teeth less sensitive. And suddenly this is raising huge questions for me.....if this change is making me feel like this in just one month, would a greater change make even more of a difference? Could I feel even 'healthier'  than I assumed I was in the past? That would be fab! This will be the year of finding out!

YES, you will feel much healthier, much stronger and happier!

Raw paleo is really a great invention, isn't it!? 

Southern Africa is still my dream. It's wonderful! One time I would like to visit you. My last stay in that region was in Windhoek. Crazy party people there and the best steaks ever! hehe

Löwenherz

[miles]

I have eaten a lot of fruit for many years without big problems. I think the damaging effects need some years to become visible.

My problems if I eat too much fruit in the long-run: Thinning hair, receding gums, yellow teeth, weak teeth, enamel loss, feeling very cold (in winter), need of much more sleep, bad sleep, no sex drive, joint problems, emaciation (if only fruit), bady body composition, probably hormonal imbalance, dry skin, accelerated aging (!), fat maldigestion, gas, bloating, unnaturally high longing for sunshine

and HORRIBLE SKIN.

Too much fruit in the long-run seems to age or destroy my skin!

Yes, these don't sound like big problems at all...  

And by the way how do you know you had tapeworms on ZC?

[Löwenherz]

He thinks it’s ok, but we must be sure not only that it’s really 100% grass fed, but also that the animals did not received  antibiotics nor medicine. Wild game meat is preferable and I think we can eat as much as we want of it, as often as we want. But eating regularly (every day or almost) meat from domesticated animals, even 100% grass fed, could be dangerous in the long run and he thinks that’s the reason of Nicole’s cancer.

Hmmm, very interesting! There has been a lot of discussion about Nicole's cancer in german raw food circles. Most of them having vegan backgrounds still think that meat is devil. However people like Wolfgang Lutz and many others believe that there is a link between high sugar consumption (especially fructose) and cancer. I never understood why many instinctos don't question the high consumption of tropcial fruits, especially when living in cold climates. During winter time in France I had always the feeling that tropical fruits mess up my metabolism. While staying in Sri Lanka and Singapore I didn't feel such imbalances. But also in the tropics ulcers and cancer and not uncommon amongst fruitarians. That made me more skeptical. I think that high animal fat PLUS high tropical fruit can be a recipe for big problems in the long run. Who knows... I wholeheartedly agree that WILD foods are always the best option.

Having on the table everyday (or almost everyday) some animal food is highly recommended. I have seen him eating every evening some animal food. But it’s varied, not everyday the same, so one day it can be wild boar, the next day eggs, next day scallops, next day mackerel, for example. He eats organs as well. 

Ah, very interesting. I guess he is eating also fruits from Orkos, right?

I think not only finished on grain, but also fed hot dried stuff (wheat or else) or even cooked leftovers and also given vaccinations and medicine. I don’t know any farmer producing suitable quality meat, except a friend who just started last year and apparently another sheep stockbreeder near Nice. The address of the latter is on Paleocru, but the forum is down at the moment following a server crash. 100 % grass fed would translate into something like “nourri exclusivement à l’herbe”, but it’s not much used since it barely exists in France!

Merci beaucoup!

I remember there is a big Hereford beef farm somewhere near Bordeaux, should be one of the few 100% grass feeding operations... You will get my "search results" in a few weeks. ;-)

I will visit Paleocru as soon as possible and would be happy to talk to you in France!

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

Hmmm, very interesting! There has been a lot of discussion about Nicole's cancer in german raw food circles. Most of them having vegan backgrounds still think that meat is devil. However people like Wolfgang Lutz and many others believe that there is a link between high sugar consumption (especially fructose) and cancer.

According to GCB, Nicole had been eating a lot of beef everyday for about 8 years. Other people told me that she ended by eating only beef and lettuce. I saw a photo of her eating pie… 

I never understood why many instinctos don't question the high consumption of tropcial fruits, especially when living in cold climates. During winter time in France I had always the feeling that tropical fruits mess up my metabolism.

I never had problems with tropical fruits, either in Sri Lanka (I lived there a few years), other tropical countries or Switzerland were I had a constant and abundant supply of very cheap organic unsold or overripe papayas, small bananas, plantains, mangoes, pineapples, avocados, passion fruits from Cameroon. But I always ate animal foods almost everyday (except a few months feeding mostly on durians in Thailand). In the tropics it was fish, sometimes eggs, seldom meat. The problem in the tropics is to find suitable meat often enough rather than too much fruits, I think. So, raw dieters in the tropics generally tend to miss enough animal food, it seems.

While staying in Sri Lanka and Singapore I didn't feel such imbalances. But also in the tropics ulcers and cancer and not uncommon amongst fruitarians. That made me more skeptical. I think that high animal fat PLUS high tropical fruit can be a recipe for big problems in the long run. Who knows... I wholeheartedly agree that WILD foods are always the best option.

Yes, and tropical fruits are generally more wild than cultivated fruits from temperate areas. As you mention somewhere else, meat from wild animal is usually very lean.

Ah, very interesting. I guess he is eating also fruits from Orkos, right?

Yes he does.

I remember there is a big Hereford beef farm somewhere near Bordeaux, should be one of the few 100% grass feeding operations... You will get my "search results" in a few weeks. ;-)

Didn’t know that. Should be very interesting.
Cheers
François

[kurite]

According to GCB, Nicole had been eating a lot of beef everyday for about 8 years. Other people told me that she ended by eating only beef and lettuce. I saw a photo of her eating pie… 

Who is Nicole? Is she a raw paleo?

[Susan]

Nicole was the wife of GCB and she died of cancer despite instinctive raw eating.

Her death caused a lot of trouble in the raw world.

There could be several reasons for her death, for me one of the them is that tooth-fillings troubled her immune-system. Burger never mentioned this problem and till now most of his followers don't do it or deny it.  Last year I contacted Burger writing him a PM about this problem but he never answered. 

[kurite]

So she ate raw beef? What was her diet like?

[Bronwen]

My problems if I eat too much fruit in the long-run: Thinning hair, receding gums, yellow teeth, weak teeth, enamel loss, feeling very cold (in winter), need of much more sleep, bad sleep, no sex drive, joint problems, emaciation (if only fruit), bady body composition, probably hormonal imbalance, dry skin, accelerated aging (!), fat maldigestion, gas, bloating, unnaturally high longing for sunshine

Did you find most of these symptoms disappeared on a lower fruit diet....esp teeth. My gums are slightly receding, have slight enamel loss on some back molars, making them a bit sensitive if I overeat acid fruit which I tend to limit anyway.? Did your teeth actually improve?
Bronwen