First Raw Milk/Dairy Journal (USA)

[Caveman]

Ok, I just found out through a new colleague that I can have raw milk and other raw animal foods delivered to my town every week from a grass-fed farm which is in a more hidden town over an hour away.. I am so stoked! Originally, I was planning on starting a raw milk/dairy experiment once I arrive in Switzerland in March for four weeks, but I just met someone today who told me all about this and gave me a half a gallon of her raw milk to try out. The milk comes from brown swiss cows which are apparently mainly grass-fed, so what I am getting here should be similar quality to what I will be getting in Switzerland. I am doing this for my health to see if I can benefit from raw milk and/or other dairy. If I really don't do well on this, I probably will stop, but I have yet to see.

Health problems I'm facing are mainly digestive tract related as far as I know. I believe I've developed food intolerances which set off fatigue, cystic acne, digestive problems in general and more that I may not be fully aware of. I've suffered from insomnia for years to varying degrees and I have all the symptoms of estrogen dominance and very low testosterone. My weight has also been going down throughout the years after puberty up until now, while it seems I definitely am gaining at least a little weight because of RAF. It has been 2 months since starting on RAF.

Day 1: I had about 2 cups of the milk around 5:00 PM. It is delicious! I haven't had milk in years, and real milk in over 11 years as I used to drink raw milk as a child in Switzerland. My stomach has been making just a few noises, but it does not seem upset at all so far.

[ForTheHunt]

Good for you. Try to get raw cream aswell

[achillezzz]

You said you have insomania try raw milk before bed and tell us how it worked for you.

I heard good stuff about warm raw milk and sleep
It has some trytophan amino acid or something

[TylerDurden]

You said you have insomania try raw milk before bed and tell us how it worked for you.

I heard good stuff about warm raw milk and sleep
It has some trytophan amino acid or something

I think the opioids in milk cause the drugged effect which makes one go to sleep. I think I read somewhere that the idea is to make calves go to sleep after suckling and not bother the mother.

[ForTheHunt]

I think the opioids in milk cause the drugged effect which makes one go to sleep. I think I read somewhere that the idea is to make calves go to sleep after suckling and not bother the mother.

Tyler, when will you stop this nonsense. Let people try things out for them selves.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, when will you stop this nonsense. Let people try things out for them selves.

Not nonsense at all, simply a fact. :-

http://www.13.waisays.com/zombie.htm
From the above:-
"These opioid peptides cause physical dependence in the young, to make sure it wants to drink lots of mother’s milk. Also, it makes the young sleep enough."( 8 ) Koldovsky, O., Search for the role of milk borne biologically active peptides for the suckling. J.Nutr. 1989 / 119 (11) / 1543-1551. , Buts, J.P. Bioactive factors in milk. Arch. Pediatr. 1998 / 5 (3) / 298-306.

More to the point, I was not specifically stating that dairy was bad in that post, I merely pointed out a more likely explanation for why milk is seen as a cure for insomnia, rather than the tryptophan explanation.

[ForTheHunt]

Not nonsense at all, simply a fact. :-

http://www.13.waisays.com/zombie.htm
From the above:-
"These opioid peptides cause physical dependence in the young, to make sure it wants to drink lots of mother’s milk. Also, it makes the young sleep enough."( 8 ) Koldovsky, O., Search for the role of milk borne biologically active peptides for the suckling. J.Nutr. 1989 / 119 (11) / 1543-1551. , Buts, J.P. Bioactive factors in milk. Arch. Pediatr. 1998 / 5 (3) / 298-306.

More to the point, I was not specifically stating that dairy was bad in that post, I merely pointed out a more likely explanation for why milk is seen as a cure for insomnia, rather than the tryptophan explanation.

"Scientific understanding of the biochemistry and pharmacology of casomorphins is incomplete"

There is extremely little research on this matter, as far as I can see this is the only one ever made, by Koldovsky. Aswell as there are plenty of other foods that contain opioid peptides, such as spinach.

So these claims are based on nothing, really. And I can just discredit this right here and now, because I have never ever felt sluggish after eating dairy products. And seeing as I've drunk up to 3 liters a day, I'm sure I would've felt a profound effect by now.

[TylerDurden]

"Scientific understanding of the biochemistry and pharmacology of casomorphins is incomplete"

Claiming that the science behind casomorphins is not complete is meaningless. The same weak argument can be used to justify debunking just about every other study on the effect of foods on human health, as food-science is so new a field - I mean, it's not as though we need to wait until the scientific evidence is as solid as the science behind the theory of gravity or evolution. The point is that there is sufficient scientific evidence for now for the effect of opioids on human health, sometimes positive, sometimes negative. As to the extent of that effect, that depends on individuals' genetics/health  etc. etc.

There is extremely little research on this matter, as far as I can see this is the only one ever made, by Koldovsky. Aswell as there are plenty of other foods that contain opioid peptides, such as spinach.

Hmm, just checking online, I quickly found a number of studies done on opioids and their effect on the human brain. While some focus on how opioids in general affect the maternal bond between mother and child, other studies focus on the negative effects of milk-opioids on health. Here's a  sample:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19932941

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1374738

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17666771

http://aut.sagepub.com/content/3/1/85.abstract

etc. etc.

And the argument that other foods contain opioids is not really relevant. After all, many foods contain some similiarities but affect people in different ways. For example, heat-created toxins are formed in both animal foods and plant foods, but since they are formed, via cooking, in animal foods to a much greater extent and in greater varieties(heterocyclic amines etc.) than found in plant foods, cooked animal foods cause more immediate harm to health than cooked plant foods. So opioids in spinach may well be less of a problem than opioids in dairy. Plus, spinach really has to be eaten in cooked form, to release enough nutrients, so is hardly a rawpalaeo food.

So these claims are based on nothing, really. And I can just discredit this right here and now, because I have never ever felt sluggish after eating dairy products. And seeing as I've drunk up to 3 liters a day, I'm sure I would've felt a profound effect by now.

  We all have different genetics so you may be an immune, for all I know- besides, dairy is so heavily implicated in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, that it rather debunks the notion that opioids can have no effects. Plus, I and plenty of other RVAFers have had chronic fatigue as a direct result of raw dairy.

I will grant that I did get some short-term boost to energy-levels shortly after consuming dairy, way back before I started seriously deteriorating in health. But given similiar related experiences of raw-dairy-drinking early on during my RVAF diet days(invariably followed by extreme fatigue), I can safely state that the dairy was in those days giving me a false, "feel-good" effect while steadily burning out and wrecking my adrenals over time.

[TylerDurden]

Back to the journal:-


Personally, I think everyone has to try raw dairy sometime on a RVAF diet - most, indeed, usually try raw dairy well before even trying raw meats. And, on a psychological level, it's much easier to get used to the taste of raw dairy than raw meats, due to social conditioning, plus you don't get any funny looks from people if you consume raw dairy openly in public, whereas tearing a raw steak(!) with one's jaws would.

That said, I'm a but surprised re your mention of estrogen as there is some data on estrogen and dairy:-

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

[Caveman]

Thanks for the added discussion, guys!

I did actually sleep much better than usual last night.

I realize that dairy contains substances in it which could complicate health issues like mine further, but I know it has the possibility to help heal as well.

[Löwenherz]

I think the opioids in milk cause the drugged effect which makes one go to sleep. I think I read somewhere that the idea is to make calves go to sleep after suckling and not bother the mother.

When I was drinking 1 - 3 litres of raw milk per day, during my PrimalDiet phase, I sometimes

slept 14 hours a day.

Löwenherz

[actionhero]

Oh no, opioid crazed raw milk drinkers are taking over the forum.

I've been drinking it daily for a month now and have not had any problems with it.

Aajonus and his primal dieters have been drinking it forever. If these health deteriorating effects were that common it would have been mentioned in his books\dvds\talks. The primal dieters I've seen look incredibly healthy and robust.

[TylerDurden]

I've been drinking it daily for a month now and have not had any problems with it.

Aajonus and his primal dieters have been drinking it forever. If these health deteriorating effects were that common it would have been mentioned in his books\dvds\talks. The primal dieters I've seen look incredibly healthy and robust.

  A touching naivety there!   Aajonus is a grade-A liar and happily lies about PD-disasters, calling them supposedly "detox"!!! etc.

[Caveman]

Day 2:

Drank about two cups again around 5 PM. Feeling good, but had the usual symptoms during the day.

I noticed my skin seems to be getting a little more oily/less dry. I've always had extremely dry skin and my acne was at its worst when it was extremely dry.

[Löwenherz]

Oh no, opioid crazed raw milk drinkers are taking over the forum.

I've been drinking it daily for a month now and have not had any problems with it.

A month is not much. Too short to talk about results.

How long have you been on your zero carb diet?

Please keep us informed...

Löwenherz

[Caveman]

Day 3:

I had the usual fatigue today, skin is ok. I had some really seemingly good and healthy bowel movements in the morning and a little later. Without the milk, I would basically be constipated for at least a week at a time unless something triggered diarrhea. So, this was the first time I had a good bowel movement in weeks, maybe close to a month even. Whether this is good or not, the milk seems to get my bowels moving.

This time I drank 2 cups on an empty stomach at noon. I really felt good at this point for a few hours until I started going on a raw honey binge. I managed to go almost all day without the honey until the fatigue and tiredness came back. I feel like I need it at times, but I rarely can control myself with how much I eat. After the honey, I had some cramping and then onto this weird partial diarrhea I usually get. This bowel movement basically just seems to be yellow/orange, oily, liquid with small bits of partially formed brown stools. Sorry to get graphic. I think this is from the amount of fat I eat and has been happening ever since eating a decent amount of raw animal fats. However, I think this only happens when I overdo it with the honey and eat it with fats..

[actionhero]

How long have you been on your zero carb diet?

Not just ZC but Raw Zero Carb for close to half a year. Before that more than half a year Raw Paleo. And before that fruitarian for almost a year. The thing is, energy wise I did fantastic on RZC. If it wasn't for some sleep problems I ran into I would still be on it.
But I'm quite happy with how it all turned out.

[Caveman]

Day 4:

I slept much better than usual last night, yet I still haven't reached that deep state of sleep I really need and have been deprived of for a long time.

Once again, had the usual fatigue. Skin is softer, not as dry and looks better than usual. Definitely not any increased acne since starting the milk, which I am surprised by.

I had about 3 cups of milk in the morning with 8 raw egg yolks and felt an immediate boost in energy that lasted for at least 2 hours. After that, I was fatigued until after 4 PM, when my body kind of seems to get some kind of hormonal or adrenal boost and I feel much better in every way. Worked out/lifted weights intensely for maybe 20 minutes, finished the half gallon of milk (just one cup was left) and had more egg yolks and now I am feeling absolutely wonderful. At these times I am always reminded of the importance of somewhat intense physical activity/exercise in healing the body. The body absolutely needs to get moving in some way and the hormones released from the intense exercises seem to be healing to me in some way and are just beneficial in many ways considering my hormonal imbalances.

Since I am now out of milk, I will be going by to see the farmer that delivers all kinds of raw animal foods tomorrow to sign up with his cow-share program in hopes of getting some more milk and possibly butter, cream or colostrum. If I can't get any tomorrow, I'll have to go without it for at least a day. I might make the one and a half hour trip on Saturday to get lots of stuff at the farm itself.

So far, I am loving my experience with raw milk.

[Löwenherz]

And before that fruitarian for almost a year. The thing is, energy wise I did fantastic on RZC. If it wasn't for some sleep problems I ran into I would still be on it.
But I'm quite happy with how it all turned out.

Just sleep problems? No other issues? Maybe some carbs would have done the trick...

The fact that you had no other problems would strengthen my theory that I really had a severe food poisoning from very bad meats. I got extremely ill on RZC.

Anyway, you needed one year to get bad results. Therefore I mentionend that drinking raw milk for only one month is not long enough to get the answers.

BTW: Tomorrow I will buy some meat from www.herefords.nl...

Groetjes,
Löwenherz

[laterade]

In the beginning of my eating raw animal foods I would get very tired drinking milk/ cream. Waking up in the morning having a glass an going right back to sleep sometimes. Recently I continued drinking cream and I love it! Tastes great, feels great. Acne comes and goes but my skin around the eruption sites looks much better.

[TylerDurden]

I also used to get a drugged, "feel-good" energetic feeling for  at least 30 minutes after drinking raw milk, followed by a period of significant  fatigue afterwards.

[ForTheHunt]

I also used to get a drugged, "feel-good" energetic feeling for  at least 30 minutes after drinking raw milk, followed by a period of significant  fatigue afterwards.

"Drugged, feel good energetic feeling"

This is the general effect when you drink a large volume of something high in sugar. Sugar spike and then a sugar slump.

So all this time, all your ranting is just because you don't understand the basic mechanics of simple sugars? Jesus.

[Caveman]

Day 5:

Success!

I signed up with the cow-share program and am now getting a gallon of raw milk every week. I also picked up two jars of yogurt (made with the raw milk) and eggs which also come from the guy's farm.

I had a good amount of the yogurt when I got home, don't know exactly how much, and once again about two cups of milk. Feeling great, whether I am "drugged" or not. I've found I am on the right track when I feel better, so I am not scared, but I will be aware of how everything affects me.

I ordered a good amount of meat, fat and liver from Slankers yesterday, however, it will be here in about a week. This means I don't really have any meat for about a week, as I can't get completely grass-fed meat in my area unless we can make the drive. I've been eating lots of eggs (primarily the yolks), up to a dozen (12) a day if I don't have much of anything else to eat. I used to eat uncured bacon and have decided to cut it out completely again. I already cut out the bacon for a few weeks, but didn't have any other good sources of fat like I do now with eggs, dairy and beef fat, so I went back to eating it for a while just for the fat content which made me feel better at times.

Basically, I might be living off of eggs and milk/yogurt and honey for close to a week. Sounds stupid, but that might be my only option right now and I'll be able to see how I react further, so I am excited

Also, once again, sleep seems to have been improving one way or another ever since starting drinking milk. I have to throw this out there too.. I got massive "wood" last night while I was sleeping and waking up, but without any sexual desires or dreams. Keep in mind, this hasn't happened to me for a long time now. I do think all of the weight lifting has been paying off. Not only am I getting beneficial hormones I really need here, but I am gaining muscle mass like I haven't ever before.

On the topic of testosterone and hormones, I started a 7 natural supplement cycle today. This means I am using 7 different natural/herbal supplements which aid the body in producing healthy levels of testosterone, one supplement at a time, switching them up every day. I had much less fatigue today.

About getting "drugged" by the raw milk.. I never feel any more fatigued or worse in any way from the raw milk throughout the day than I would on a usual day when I was just eating raw meat. I remember trying out whey protein last summer.. THAT stuff basically made me collapse and I could barely walk.. same with hemp seed protein. So far, I have not had any ill effects from the milk.. I DO feel better than usual.

[KD]

In the beginning of my eating raw animal foods I would get very tired drinking milk/ cream. Waking up in the morning having a glass an going right back to sleep sometimes. Recently I continued drinking cream and I love it! Tastes great, feels great. Acne comes and goes but my skin around the eruption sites looks much better.

Is the cream you get liquid? I've only had super thick cream and it was fairly revolting to mix with anything but berries or something. Of course I seem to be the only one that thinks eating gobs of butter is gross too so go figure. I could be fuzzy/different now and I'm trying cream soon from goat which will be the first time in like 2 years.

This is the general effect when you drink a large volume of something high in sugar. Sugar spike and then a sugar slump.

My soon to be shot down suspicion is most detractors have either experience with: pasteurized dairy, drinking fresh unfermented cold milk, and 'raw' salted grain-fed cheese from wholefoods and similar places, and that is about it. If I was to eat these things, they would cause 'massive' problems for me too.  Likely the same people have less than 6 months eating pure dairy fat sans such things as part of a otherwise healthy diet. People are free to extrapolate on whatever problems they have and relate them to whatever 'science' or 'paleo' type theories (and some may have never seriously experimented/tried to adjust to dairy at all). At the same time plenty of people do notice differences in the types of dairy they eat, as well as changes over time of being able to consume them that correspond with an increase in health, and not the opposite. Heck, most of this stuff gave me all sorts of problems in the beginning and I still can't drink (much) fresh milk successfully. Since it seems to me the same reasons people are drawn to a paleo type diet in the first place is gut issues/heavy metals etc.., its no mystery that many people have a hard time with the composition of fresh milk, not to mention that the high carb content is somewhat problematic in quantity anyway, at least depending on the type of diet one is on.

just my take.

[Caveman]

It is strange.. considering I developed sensitivities to almost any food from my horrible state of health, I thought even raw dairy would give me massive problems. Like I said, I can't say I've had any bad experiences at all so far. I did grow up with occasional raw milk and other raw dairy in Switzerland, though, so maybe it might be a genetic thing here..