First Raw Milk/Dairy Journal (USA)

[TylerDurden]

"Drugged, feel good energetic feeling"

This is the general effect when you drink a large volume of something high in sugar. Sugar spike and then a sugar slump.

So all this time, all your ranting is just because you don't understand the basic mechanics of simple sugars? Jesus.

Nonsense, of course. I have previously eaten foods/drinks very high in sugar  and never once did they have the same powerful drugged effect and massive fatigue on me as raw dairy gave me. So, the raw dairy clearly was affecting my adrenals in an unpleasant way.

[TylerDurden]

My soon to be shot down suspicion is most detractors have either experience with: pasteurized dairy, drinking fresh unfermented cold milk, and 'raw' salted grain-fed cheese from wholefoods and similar places, and that is about it. If I was to eat these things, they would cause 'massive' problems for me too.  Likely the same people have less than 6 months eating pure dairy fat sans such things as part of a otherwise healthy diet. People are free to extrapolate on whatever problems they have and relate them to whatever 'science' or 'paleo' type theories (and some may have never seriously experimented/tried to adjust to dairy at all).

  The big lie of raw-dairy diets is that butter is always fine or that raw dairy is fine or just needs a little tweaking such as drinking it at room-temperature.   This has led to many people like myself fruitlessly experimenting with dairy, some for years, before they finally recognise that all dairy types  as a whole are bad for them. Sure, some types of dairy are "less worse" as they have fewer carbs or whatever, but that doesn't make them healthy.

For the record, ages ago, before RPD diets, I used to consume a lot of raw milk and cheeses  in the south of France for a month at a time(no pasteurised at all during that period), and I still had fatigue issues with them. The dairy came from grassfed cows from peasant farmers nearby.

[actionhero]

For the record, ages ago, before RPD diets, I used to consume a lot of raw milk and cheeses  in the south of France for a month at a time(no pasteurised at all during that period), and I still had fatigue issues with them. The dairy came from grassfed cows from peasant farmers nearby.

Raw dairy wasn't the problem. How your body reacted to it IS. To claim that raw dairy is bad for everyone just because 'when you eat it you get problems' is the wrong way to go about it.

There's people in the rawfoods movement who've been consuming it in vast quantities for decades now and they report no such issues with it. In fact they claim it made them stronger and more vigorous. 

Therefore I mentionend that drinking raw milk for only one month is not long enough to get the answers.

I agree, was just reporting my experience so far.

Also, once again, sleep seems to have been improving one way or another ever since starting drinking milk. I have to throw this out there too.. I got massive "wood" last night while I was sleeping and waking up, but without any sexual desires or dreams. Keep in mind, this hasn't happened to me for a long time now. I do think all of the weight lifting has been paying off. Not only am I getting beneficial hormones I really need here, but I am gaining muscle mass like I haven't ever before.

Morning wood is a sign of true vitality returning to the body and empowering the whole system. You are well on your way to regaining true health and unleashing your potential as an individual.

[TylerDurden]

Raw dairy wasn't the problem. How your body reacted to it IS. To claim that raw dairy is bad for everyone just because 'when you eat it you get problems' is the wrong way to go about it.

I haven't suggested that it is bad for absolutely everyone. I am aware that some people seem to thrive on the stuff.  I merely point out that more people appear to suffer, healthwise, from dairy-consumption than thrive on it. There are, of course, other issues, aside from health. For example, raw dairy is banned in many regions of the world  so it is more difficult to obtain than raw, grassfed meats. Plus, raw dairy is not essential per se; that is, there is nothing in raw dairy that can't be got from eating other raw animal foods.

Morning wood is a sign of true vitality returning to the body and empowering the whole system. You are well on your way to regaining true health and unleashing your potential as an individual.

Not perhaps always true. I, for example, had a frequent problem with an overly high sex-drive when I was very, very ill, pre-RPD diet, and had morning wood all the time. I think it was Craig(?) who suggested an  interesting, unusual explanation for such symptoms:- the idea is that when men are ill/facing death, the body "tells" the brain to go out looking for sex so as to quickly pass on one's genes before the man dies; when women are seriously  ill, the body "tells" the brain to avoid sex as there is no point in being pregnant and burdening the body when one is anyway going to die shortly.

[Löwenherz]

I also used to get a drugged, "feel-good" energetic feeling for  at least 30 minutes after drinking raw milk, followed by a period of significant  fatigue afterwards.

Yep.

plus bloody eyes, nervousness, anxiety, euphoria, massive weight gain, delayed healing, paleness etc. etc. ...

Löwenherz

[Caveman]

Day 6:

Everything's just getting better. Almost no more acne, much smoother, softer skin, not dry anymore. I've been having steady energy levels and a much more clear mind, no more brain fog as far as I can tell at the moment. Steady gain in muscle (I work out at least twice a week, high intensity, no longer than 20 to 30 minutes). The quality and quantity of my sleep has also increased steadily. I used to be up literally all night a few times a week. Now, there's been massive improvement here. Yesterday, I didn't even go to bed being too tired, yet I wanted to sleep and just fell asleep within minutes. This sleep was actually incredibly refreshing, compared to the nights I had when I would just seem to be in a state of half-sleep, half-awake. If I would ever get any sleep in the past, it would take me at least over an hour.

[actionhero]

I merely point out that more people appear to suffer, healthwise, from dairy-consumption than thrive on it.

The 'more people appear to suffer' applies mostly to pasteurized dairy as most problems go away when raw dairy is consumed (unless you're part of the group not yet evolved\adapted to extract nutrients from it). Whole books have been written about just this topic, raw vs pasteurized, health promoting vs health destroying.

Not perhaps always true. I, for example, had a frequent problem with an overly high sex-drive when I was very, very ill, pre-RPD diet, and had morning wood all the time. I think it was Craig(?) who suggested an  interesting, unusual explanation for such symptoms:- the idea is that when men are ill/facing death, the body "tells" the brain to go out looking for sex so as to quickly pass on one's genes before the man dies;

The dude ain't facing death. The raw milk isn't killing him. Nice try but his health seems to be improving.

[TylerDurden]

The 'more people appear to suffer' applies mostly to pasteurized dairy as most problems go away when raw dairy is consumed

  sadly it also applies to raw dairy as well, since it is the raw food most complained about on RVAF diet forums. The trouble is that while raw dairy is a bit less worse than pasteurised dairy, that doesn´t make it healthy.


Also, whether caveman does fine or suffers from it, depends on his own long-term experimentation(though I have 1 or 2 minor concerns of a personal nature, since some of his  reports re symptoms echo my own initial experiences with raw dairy). Anyway, why should i care about a few outliers/exceptions which merely prove the rule?

[TylerDurden]

What amuses me about absurd claims re a few people supposedly somehow having "evolved" to adapt to raw milk is that there is an unspoken implication that such rare people are "highly evolved mutants" who are a master-race somehow superior to the lowly majority who are not  so adapted to raw dairy. If these pro-raw-dairy-advocates/fanatics had done just a little scientific research beforehand, they would have come to recognise that almost all mutations are invariably harmful to survival, with the tiny remainder of such mutations being mostly useless, and only a tiny few others actually being  beneficial. Indeed,  many of those  very few beneficial mutations, while beneficial in some circumstances, can be harmful in other situations. A classic example of such a mutation  is sickle-cell anaemia, which protects against malaria but causes serious problems when at high altitude etc.

[laterade]

Shouldn't you be trying to catch up? 

[Caveman]

Day 7:

Slept very good and felt great until a little later in the day. I know I've had a sensitivity to eggs, specifically egg whites. I can't completely separate all the white from the yolk, there is always some white in there when I eat my eggs. This might be holding me back a bit, at least when I eat too much (I have been eating a dozen a day). I felt fatigued after eating the eggs. I always eat my raw dairy/milk separately and I waited over an hour until eating the eggs. Of course, it is a possibility that the milk could no longer be doing me as good as in the beginning (which seems to happen with so many diet experiments I've done), but I am more suspecting the raw yogurt. When I started eating the yogurt, I'd become a bit bloated after every time I ate more than just a few spoonfuls. Bloating was gone with just raw milk and no yogurt. Now, I'm out of yogurt for at least 3 days so I will see what will happen further. I've actually never done well with any fermented foods, but I also tend to overeat on them, whether it's sauerkraut, kim-chi, kefir, kombucha, yogurt.. the result always seems to be bloating if I don't strictly minimize my intake. I felt like I had to try the yogurt, as it has been so long and I want to try as many raw dairy products as possible, within reason.

Still, I am feeling good, much better than before.

[sabertooth]

 Not perhaps always true. I, for example, had a frequent problem with an overly high sex-drive when I was very, very ill, pre-RPD diet, and had morning wood all the time. I think it was Craig(?) who suggested an  interesting, unusual explanation for such symptoms:- the idea is that when men are ill/facing death, the body "tells" the brain to go out looking for sex so as to quickly pass on one's genes before the man dies; when women are seriously  ill, the body "tells" the brain to avoid sex as there is no point in being pregnant and burdening the body when one is anyway going to die shortly.

This reminds me of my situation. I was real ill right before I met my wife. I was feeling sick and alone, I thought I would never recover my health and be able to have a family; then some type of instinctual process forced its self upon me and compelled me to reach out and grab a mate( It was like I had no choice in the matter. I was able to keep up appearances(faking wellness) and swoon the lady off her feet while hiding my health problems.  She was pregnant within the first 2 months. I eventually exhausted my self once the endorphins died down and was eventually forced to let her know how bad my health could get, but by then she had already settled in with me. I respect her for putting up with my sickness for so long, and now that I am well I continue to breed her as a sign of gratitude for her devotion to me.

 Anyway I somehow feel that there is a grain of truth in that off the wall statement, at least from my experience.

[sabertooth]

I though yogurt was healthy because after using antibiotics it did seem to help restore gut bacteria, but it caused other problems that were hard to figure out. I eventually had to remove all dairy from my diet. It seems that many people in my family will become dairy intolerant in their early 20s. I think I became dairy intolerant but I was to stuburn to give it up and was constantly looking for cleaner brands and non homogenized, goats milk, etc. By the time I got to use raw milk I was prediabetic and milk would make my blood sugars raise. I have now gotten so convinced that dairy isn't for me that I have given up on experimentation.

Eggs are a food that I believe quality often affects the way one tolerates them. I have back yard chicken that are free ranged, I will feed them some slop bucket scraps from time to time as well, I seem to have no trouble eating the whole eggs from my own chickens, but If I buy store bought eggs it seems to be a crap shoot, some brands seem to be good , but other brands will taste bitter, or sometimes make me feel bad.

[actionhero]

What amuses me about absurd claims re a few people supposedly somehow having "evolved" to adapt to raw milk is that there is an unspoken implication that such rare people are "highly evolved mutants" who are a master-race somehow superior to the lowly majority who are not  so adapted to raw dairy.

They are indeed superior in a way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html?_r=1

Genetic evidence shows that the mutations conferred an enormous selective advantage on their owners, enabling them to leave almost 10 times as many descendants as people without them. The mutations have created “one of the strongest genetic signatures of natural selection yet reported in humans,” the researchers write.

auch

[ForTheHunt]

Shame you have such weak genes Tyler 

[TylerDurden]

They are indeed superior in a way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html?_r=1

auch

That's absurd as a claim. I mean, most of the world(75 percent) is lactose-intolerant to some extent, so if consuming milk really gave such an overwhelming advantage re 10 times the population-increase, one would naturally expect  there to be very few people left in the world who could not tolerate dairy. And one would expect more dairy-tolerant populations like Northern Europeans to comprise most of the world's population.

[Caveman]

Day 8:

No more yogurt, feeling much better. Just eating egg yolks and milk throughout the day. I'm really feeling good, though.

I went on a scale today and weighed myself. I wanted to know if I'd gained any weight. Like I said, I've definitely gained muscle through the high intensity weight training I've been doing. I see and feel a big difference in my muscles, yet, according to the scale, I did not gain any weight. If anything, it could have been one pound more than the last time I checked over two weeks ago. I wish I would have seen some weight gain, but I'm not too disappointed because my body is looking much better.

By the way, I've always been drinking at least two cups of raw milk every day. Everything in moderation.

[Caveman]

Day 9:

I'll keep this one short, not much happened on this day. I didn't sleep well like I have been, since starting my testosterone boosting herbs plus raw dairy, due to some emotional stress. This affected my energy and mood through the day, but I still felt ok overall. The stress has been sorted.

[Caveman]

Day 10:

Ok. Decent sleep from the night before. Felt great all day, lots of energy.

I tried some new things once again. My mom tempted me with some raw chocolate she found. I usually had bad effects from cacao regarding my adrenals before I went on raw animal foods. I didn't have too much, but it was delicious and there was no negative effect. In fact, my mood was great and I had no crash.

My father bought some goji berries and just wanted to try some, as I've always loved goji berries. They were delicious and I felt good afterwords.

Also, I saw some raw goat's cheese today and just wanted to try it. I've been short on calories lately from just having eggs, honey and milk all day and this cheese is really dense in nutrients. Last time I had any goat dairy product in the summer, I immediately felt sick, like I got a fever with fatigue. I almost ate the whole piece of cheese (not too large, but about 880 calories worth) and have felt great ever since, kind of like a boost of energy. As of yet, I don't think I have felt any negative effects, my stomach has even been feeling great. I would think that it could give me some real problems regarding digestion. However, I'll see how I feel later tonight and tomorrow..

[Caveman]

Day 11:

Holy shit.

Ok, I've had a little too much energy today.. I don't know exactly which hormone it is, but I hope it's not an increase in any stress hormone like cortisol..

My workout helped, but I find it really hard to relax today.. this is like the opposite of usual. I know this has nothing to do with the dairy, though. It must be the cycle of testosterone supplements I've been using. I am on the first day of the second week. If this continues like this, I will stop using any supplement up to a few days until I feel like I need it.

Besides this crazy energy and mental alertness/clarity (and I thought I was mentally active during my heavy brain-fog days.. wow, I think way too much), I am feeling great.

I just feel great emotionally. My skin is now incredibly soft and smooth and not dry or rough at all anymore. Also, still no more acne, wow. I feel my face a lot from going through hell with acne and almost all I've wanted for years was to be rid of it, so every once in a while I do feel a tiny spot come on a little sore, but it does not progress and goes away within hours if I just forget about it. I am noticing just more and more facial hair. Of course all of my effort on boosting testosterone is the biggest factor here, but I still have noticed NO negative reactions to any dairy I've had so far.

I received more than two quarts of beautiful, yellow, frozen colostrum from the farmer today for cheap. 6 dollars for a quart of it. I was surprised by how yellow it is. Literally looks just like egg yolks. Even though it's not completely fresh, it should still do something, it is still a food.

Since I received my Slanker's order today, I'll have more variety in my diet once again. Lots of great muscle meat, liver and fat. I am doing a minimum of 1 to 2 cups of raw milk a day.

With all of this energy, I can still relax, I just have to get off of the computer and stop thinking. It is completely due to my overactive mind, which I've always had, I have an addiction to thinking and it just seems to be stimulating some hormone. Time to do some EFT.

[Caveman]

One thing also came to mind.. could I be experiencing high blood pressure? My heart does seem to be racing a bit. The cheese I have been eating contains lots of sodium.. however, I didn't notice any difference after eating it, but it could have caused it a few hours later..

[KD]

good for you man for troubleshooting this stuff on your own...I may even try fresh milk again this spring based on your progress. I've only had poor quality milk and tended to OD on it (1 gallon on some days) because the place I went was so far and I couldn't go more than once a week and didn't make sense to get such small volume. So like many people, thats hardly a decent trial. I have had decent improvements it seems with sugars generally, which I tend to think are the root of many peoples fresh milk issues, but its possible some people might do better with such sugars (like with organ meats) than fruit and starch sugars which can ferment.

One thing also came to mind.. could I be experiencing high blood pressure? My heart does seem to be racing a bit. The cheese I have been eating contains lots of sodium.. however, I didn't notice any difference after eating it, but it could have caused it a few hours later..

I don't know what supplements you are taking or how they work but if you are concerned go buy a little kit to take your blood pressure.

[lex_rooker]

This topic is interesting.  I'll be interested to see how things go for the long term.  Many people report significant changes or improvements in the short term after making a major dietary change, however, it is how things go month after month and year after year that truly matters.

In my case I thought I had great improvement when I first changed from SAD to vegan 30 years ago.  Short term results were great.  It was the long term that did me in.  Just don't get too caught up in your own press and be willing to change if things start to go south....

Lex

[Caveman]

KD, thanks for keeping a more positive outlook. It's nice to not hear any biased negativity against raw dairy once in a while. By the way, I saw your most recent picture, you look like a beast (in a great way). Very inspiring.

This makes sense. I actually stopped using any salt for a long time, but yesterday when I went for the cheese, I had an almost unquenchable thirst lasting until I went to bed. Keep in mind, I ate a whole $6 block of of the cheese which is around 900 calories. So, I'll start eating little to no cheese (it just tastes amazing and has been giving me very healthy bowel movements, which is interesting regarding something I read about Aajonus stating that raw cheese absorbs toxins or something along those lines).

Many things do get a bad wrap in today's overly confusing technical world of science. Also, most people tend to preach against things which gave the individual bad experience. I've gone through so many different diets, lifestyles, supplements, and programs. I've preached how unhealthy everything is, but as I found what was good for me, I changed my mind, became less critical..

What kind of "poor quality milk" was it that you consumed, KD? Grain fed? What type of cow?

I have access to brown swiss cows which are grass-fed and really cared for, so this is very important. I have a long history of overeating/overdosing on just about anything I can put in my body. Surprisingly, I was able to control myself with the milk at about 2 cups for the limit a day. I am now drinking a little more because I can buy additional half-gallon jugs for just $5. You can have bad experiences with anything, no matter how healthy or unhealthy they are, in too high of doses.

I never read much about the whole Eat Right For Your Type diet, but recently did a bit of reading and saw that blood type B, I think it was, can thrive off of meat and dairy. Whenever I get a chance to check my blood type, I'll do it as I'm really interested. This seems to be the first time where my body is telling me what I am doing is good for me as much as I think it is. I did ok on true Raw Paleo, but now things are just above and beyond..

[Caveman]

This topic is interesting.  I'll be interested to see how things go for the long term.  Many people report significant changes or improvements in the short term after making a major dietary change, however, it is how things go month after month and year after year that truly matters.

In my case I thought I had great improvement when I first changed from SAD to vegan 30 years ago.  Short term results were great.  It was the long term that did me in.  Just don't get too caught up in your own press and be willing to change if things start to go south....

Lex

Very wise words, and I agree. However, after trying almost everything for over 3 years, I kept telling myself that I was just going through detox day after day, week after week, month after month.. until my health worsened to a much worse extent than when I was eating SAD. In the last 2 to 3 months when I started on this raw animal food journey, it was the first time I felt and saw an improvement, yet I still have had to make improvements and I bet I still do to this point. I believe in changing things up when we need them..