Sex drive on a raw diet?

[pioneer]

Max, you speak of human suffering as if it is something that can be controlled. Human and animal suffering is a part of life. A zebra being mauled by a lion, thats suffering, a single mother with two jobs raising a family, that's suffering. Sure some suffering is bad, but others is absolutely great and it molds our characters. I would not be the man I am today if I did not suffer and overcome my own problems. Suffering gives us the ability to make our lives better, and have a sense of personal pride.

Your argument actually seems to contradict itself quite a bit and if you study philosophy, you will see that this whole population argument has already been put to rest. The reason is that if we went along with your purported views to lower the world population to a "stable" number, how long before people begin getting pissed and begin to suffer because they can only have a set number of kids. If I was told I could only have 2 kids to replace me and my wife, I would suffer as a result. You are missing a huge point that people suffer when they are told what to do. People want and should want to live their own lives and make their own decisions. Driving this point home, there will never be an end to all human suffering, and there really shouldnt be, suffering makes us human.

Also, if we lower the population by none other than murder, that would cause plenty of suffering. And if we did achieve a lower population by murder, how long till we have to murder people again and lower the population once more?

If you look at the current fertility rates, you will see that we already are a dying race. Our epigenetics are all screwed up and every generation gets worse and worse. Basically what effects you will effect your grand kids and so forth. Doris Rapp, the world's leading pediatrician studies soy formula and its effects on young infants. Soy formula and other estrogenic substances fed to babies are not only causing our young men to go into andropause earlier, but also making men homosexual. Japan needs over 100,000 in vitro fertilizations every year just to have kids. Other countries are just as bad. I live in the US and am well educated of the birth rate. The US birth rate is currently 1.9, which is not enough to replace ourselves. Combine this with the fact that 15-25% of these births were of illegal immigrants, and counted in studies as legal US citizens as per the 14th ammendment, you will see that we are in a birth rate/fertility shithole. Check out the information the CIA currently has on population, the birth rates of higher income nations are lowering. It seems that the higher income nations are in trouble and will be replaced by individuals from lower income nations.

[Neone]

Im not telling you to have less sex or anything.  If you're with a partner and condoms isnt necessary then you can always use the methods that my wife and i use, which is combining 'Family Planning' method with withdrawl and neem seed oil.  You can still have a fulfilling sensual sex life while greatly increasing the odds of not conceiving.

But I dont actually expect people to expand their caring bubble outside of their own circles and i fully expect the world to run itself into the ground long before people realize they need to come together intellectually.

I think a lot of you dont get that you're still all part of 'the system'.  You either get your food from it, or get your food from people who are a part of it. So once it starts going to shit and the prices go up, you're going to find yourselves hungry. No, other people arent going on raw paleo diets.. but as soon as they're having REAL trouble getting food, those hearts i buy for $1.50 a lb are going to be looking pretty good.

And Pioneer, a zebra being killed relatively quickly and eaten for food is NOT THE SAME kind of suffering that a single mother with two kids and six jobs has to go through. (because the zebra dies and cannot learn from it... haha)
Your thinking would mean that somebody who was locked in a cage and raped every day for 10 years is a better person because they had to 'suffer' more.. right? or is that not what you meant, and what you were really saying is that adversary and challenges builds character, mabye a little pain... but to say that the world has to SUFFER? what kind of sadistic shit is that?  Better tell your kids to sleep outside in the rain because all that suffering they're going to do, they'll thank you for later.

I think you guys want to have your cake, and eat it too.  You all go on about being true paleo and stuff, and fucking and breeding are paleo and since im a !!REAL ALHPA MALE!! i can do whatever the fuck i want to!!  but dont realise you're not living in paleo times, and the rules have changed, and you cant just go and 'DO WHATEVER I WANT!' (because you're a badass alpha male) because you're fucking it all up.  You neuter your dogs because they are hella paleo and 'do whatever the fuck they want' and can understand that an unchecked animal population is not a good idea, but fail to take a look at ourselves and mabye instead of having to cut our sex organs out, we could just.. you know.. be smart.

*i believe that 'alpha male' is not a real thing, its just an idea people have.. everyone here has a different idea of what makes an alpha male.  I think it works if you're talking about packs of dogs... but humans aren't packs of dogs.

What im trying to say is that its not paleo times where there is small ammounts of people and a real danger of death where not everybody lived to old age, so in this day and age of around 7 billion people and medicine i dont think that its wise to be breeding great numbers of people.  When you put a species into an enviroment where they have no natural predators they will overpopulate untill it crashes and nature sorts it all out for them (in usual brutal fashion). 

[pioneer]

Im not telling you to have less sex or anything.  If you're with a partner and condoms isnt necessary then you can always use the methods that my wife and i use, which is combining 'Family Planning' method with withdrawl and neem seed oil.  You can still have a fulfilling sensual sex life while greatly increasing the odds of not conceiving.

But I dont actually expect people to expand their caring bubble outside of their own circles and i fully expect the world to run itself into the ground long before people realize they need to come together intellectually.

I think a lot of you dont get that you're still all part of 'the system'.  You either get your food from it, or get your food from people who are a part of it. So once it starts going to shit and the prices go up, you're going to find yourselves hungry. No, other people arent going on raw paleo diets.. but as soon as they're having REAL trouble getting food, those hearts i buy for $1.50 a lb are going to be looking pretty good.

And Pioneer, a zebra being killed relatively quickly and eaten for food is NOT THE SAME kind of suffering that a single mother with two kids and six jobs has to go through. (because the zebra dies and cannot learn from its suffering... haha)
Your dumbass thinking would mean that somebody who was locked in a cage and raped every day for 10 years is a better person because they had to 'suffer' more.. right? or is that not what you meant, and what you were really saying is that adversary and challenges builds character, mabye a little pain... but to say that the world has to SUFFER? what kind of sadistic shit is that?  Better tell your kids to sleep outside in the rain because all that suffering they're going to do, they'll thank you for later.

I think you guys want to have your cake, and eat it too.  You all go on about being true paleo and stuff, and fucking and breeding are paleo and since im a !!REAL ALHPA MALE!! i can do whatever the fuck i want to!!  but dont realise you're not living in paleo times, and the rules have changed, and you cant just go and 'DO WHATEVER I WANT!' (because you're a badass alpha male) because you're fucking it all up.  You neuter your dogs because they are hella paleo and 'do whatever the fuck they want' and can understand that an unchecked animal population is not a good idea, but fail to take a look at ourselves and mabye instead of having to cut our sex organs out, we could just.. you know.. be smart.

Wow, I cant even comprehend what you are trying to say because, not only is your writing atrocious, but you are just mumbling shit for the sake of arguing and throwing some f words in there and alpha shit to seem cool. The way you are talking about yourself is not alpha. The alpha does not need to prove he is already alpha, the alpha already is alpha and is secure with himself. Going on forums behind your computer acting all macho and calling yourself alpha and such is only feeding into your own insecurities. None of us here know you and do not care about whether you are alpha or not.

[pioneer]

Oh and yeah, you're from canada, that explains a lot:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAYMJnO9LBQ

[KD]

well, luckily we are in the best of situations for everybody right now

restrictions on kids for all who choose to do so and are infulenced by such things and non-restrictions on those who chose to do so

Seems like the latter benefits quite well that way.

where I resonate with Neone is that there is indeed alot of posturing in this thread and elsewhere on basically what should amount to "food chat". Ironically one of the negative aspects of being alpha is the idea that "I get mine", or at least in my opinion it is negative.

I believe type-a is basically a derivative of "alpha". who strives to be type-a? Seems more like a curse than a pursuit. Alpha does not mean 'best', it means most dominating and likely - controlling. Dima pointed out some of the more accurate characteristics of alphas. Even though these people might be able to create wealth and power or work over a room socially it doesn't mean they lack insecurities, are the most settled with themselves or certainly the happiest. The modern movie star is like a perfect example of such. You can't go and say oh well the real alphas are this and that...because that isn't what that term means. It means basically if you were in some kind of abstract power struggle or battle over a female with Viggo Mortensen, you would likely lose.

The other thing is just an issue of what we know of genetics. I personally believe on a stretch that we can change our genetic expression through raw eating OVER TIME and likely mostly for ourselves only. This is unproven on a societal scale but its a valid belief. What makes little sense to me is that given the likelihood of coming to such a diet being based on poor genetics (in addition to habits of course)..why would one assume offspring wouldn't be heavily influenced by this same set of genetics...discounting being raised on (hopefully) better habits.

Anyway, I don't really care what people do as far as procreation as long as they arn't actually policy deciders! but it seems to me that such an attitudes can actually come across as very non paleo and actually very lock-and-key ownership style agrarian attitude to the world. This is blatant with Mormons and other folks who have come up in this kind of conversation. To believe that certain people have more of a right to this or that..particularly based on a diet..well thats pretty fricken weird.

[jessica]

pioneer, actually what neone wrote was half decent(the jabs AT alpha males, were not...they are victims of the system to we must remember)

i do not think wanting to make more children is the most horrendous idea but i agree that over population is just another unsustainable practice...i mean honestly i am scared for the world I will live in in 10 years, do i really want to bring someone into that? is it possible for me to spend my energy shaping a world i would want to bring children into and raising a child and keeping healthful enough to continue being beneficial?? honestly i see a much more polluted and unhealthy life for children who are in their teen's right now, there is no way i would let a child of mine be influenced by any current popular culture, be it media, food, entertainment, education, medicine, even the internet.  i do not see how the earth as a living organism will be able to continue to be a suitable environment for us humans in 10 years...i mean if you know anything about WHERE your meat comes from  you would understand that the GRASS THE BEEF EATS and the SOIL IT GROWS IN IS UNDER ATTACK by corperations such as MONSANTO who want to destroy plant genetics and sterilize soil...i am not kidding you http://morphcity.com/home/94-monsanto-shifts-all-liability-to-farmers i mean these are honest concerns and i think they are very realistic for our times.  i think these kind of conversations occur here because EVERYTHING is connected to everything else in some way on this planet.......

what i do know is  that its best to be in control of ones mating urges regardless of marital status, financial status, health status, etc. and to always keep the future of yourself, your children, your communities and environment in mind because all of these elements influence who you are and how well your experience upon this earth is............

[magnetic]

The majority of the population lives off cultivation, not meat, and already we're making many fish and animal species extinct. We're destroying our forests, polluting our oceans and waterways, and damaging many other parts of our natural environment - both because of our population boom and our irresponsible resource management due to our outdated money system.

Who is we?  If I am destroying my own forest, what is wrong with that?  If someone is destroying someone else's forest, who is enabling that or preventing the owner from exercising their right to protect their forest?

I'm not anti-human life in anyway. I am anti-human suffering. It's simple deduction that if we lowered the population numbers it would be easier to provide for everyone and end ALL human and much animal suffering(the massive corporation owned animal feed lots that it takes to feed so many humans all breed animal cruelty).

With fewer humans there will be reduced labor and output and hence less being produced.  Your statement makes no sense, it is not a solution even if the problem you are positing existed.

[pioneer]

pioneer, actually what neone wrote was half decent(the jabs AT alpha males, were not...they are victims of the system to we must remember)

i do not think wanting to make more children is the most horrendous idea but i agree that over population is just another unsustainable practice...i mean honestly i am scared for the world I will live in in 10 years, do i really want to bring someone into that? is it possible for me to spend my energy shaping a world i would want to bring children into and raising a child and keeping healthful enough to continue being beneficial??  i mean these are honest questions and i think they are very realistic for our times...i often worry that if i do not have children soon i will not be able to, but i would really like the world to be a much nicer future for them..i am not sure............what i do know is  that its best to be in control of ones mating urges regardless of marital status, financial status, health status, etc. and to always keep the future of yourself, your children, your communities and environment in mind because all of these elements influence who you are and how well your experience upon this earth is............

Good points, and I like your enthusiasm, but remember the notion you are using is to not reproduce BECAUSE the world sucks; that somehow your kin will live worse off later because it sucks today. Times change. Remember the depression. Who would've wanted to have kids in that. For one, they couldnt afford them, and two, they thought their kids might grow up in a poor environment, but, they didnt. Times change, we adapt, things happen, and while I dont agree with some of neone's points I do agree that some kind of inevitable cataclysmic event will happen that will wipe out a good amount of our race. But my point is that right now we cannot do a damn thing about it so why not reproduce, and raise good kids. We could be having a debate about having a couple kids per family over here on the west side, while on the east side, they are pumping out 7 kids per family in Libya and Kenya. Its all bullshit. Just worry about yourself and live your life the way you want to live it. Dont get sucked into the ideas of those yuppy environmentalists that purport that sex is the problem.

[magnetic]

I think you guys want to have your cake, and eat it too.  You all go on about being true paleo and stuff, and fucking and breeding are paleo and since im a !!REAL ALHPA MALE!! i can do whatever the fuck i want to!!  but dont realise you're not living in paleo times, and the rules have changed, and you cant just go and 'DO WHATEVER I WANT!' (because you're a badass alpha male) because you're fucking it all up. 

Don't you mean, "you may not do whatever you want"??  It is rather trivial that anyone can do whatever they want.  You aren't making any sense here.

... i dont think that its wise to be breeding great numbers of people.  When you put a species into an enviroment where they have no natural predators they will overpopulate untill it crashes and nature sorts it all out for them (in usual brutal fashion). 

Who is in control of breeding?  Are we part of an experiment?  Your words are very confusing.

[jessica]

Good points, and I like your enthusiasm, but remember the notion you are using is to not reproduce BECAUSE the world sucks; that somehow your kin will live worse off later because it sucks today. Times change. Remember the depression. Who would've wanted to have kids in that. For one, they couldnt afford them, and two, they thought their kids might grow up in a poor environment, but, they didnt. Times change, we adapt, things happen, and while I dont agree with some of neone's points I do agree that some kind of inevitable cataclysmic event will happen that will wipe out a good amount of our race. But my point is that right now we cannot do a damn thing about it so why not reproduce, and raise good kids. We could be having a debate about having a couple kids per family over here on the west side, while on the east side, they are pumping out 7 kids per family in Libya and Kenya. Its all bullshit. Just worry about yourself and live your life the way you want to live it. Dont get sucked into the ideas of those yuppy environmentalists that purport that sex is the problem.

the reason i am raw paleo is because i REALIZED AND HAVE SUFFERED FROM LIVING IN A POOR ENVIRONMENT, and it is by FAR healthier than the majority of the population of this earths..........i am not sure those in the depression hoped for that for their future generations.  i think we live a very comfortable and blessed existence at all to have the time and means to able to question these things and wonder if it isnt our blessing to also realize that there may be something each of us can do about facing a really shitty future...like decide we want to do what we can to make it better.  i mean that does sometimes work..you eat raw paleo because it makes you feel better, you feel healthier, you tell someone else about raw paleo, they feel better, they can, in turn, help someone else make a better choice(basically expending energy in productive BUT sustainable and beneficial manner)...if this were a continual and mutual cycle then !!!!!!!!!!!!! i am not sure if that is just too idealistic.....i also know that some people are going to have a shitty day REGARDLESS and that perhaps it is the course of the world right now to sit back and accept cataclysm as something that is supposed to occur as part of the natural cycle of the universe, and that also it is silly to put humans outside of the realm of being part of this natural "destructive" event(i mean if it is really just nature then in the end the destruction always brings new, perhaps different, life) but it is just strange to think that we have the capability to comprehend these concepts and actually CHOOSE to live at least in more harmony with our environment...i do see the possibility still of a beautiful lush sustainable world but it would take people having self-control, taking responsibility, making sacrifices and actually being informed, aware and healthy.... perhaps we are already too sick..perhaps we just need to endure the suffering again because we did not learn from it the first time...i am not sure

p.s. ha i love thomas jefferson and i just read the quote on your profile.  thomas jefferson chose to die in debt, he knew he was living beyond his means and could not make enough money at his little nail factory to support his travel, horticulture, family, etc.....he KNEW he was living beyond his means...but he did not care, we have been not caring and not trying for a long while...but i guess it is the nature of events to rush hurriedly in a direction once the momentum has begun......

[MaximilianKohler]

Referring to zeitgeist automatically makes you a socialist.
No thanks Max, we have parasites in DC to focus on before we try any new experiments.

There are a lot of valid points in the film, but central planning is what got us here in the first place.
Here is a link for anyone who was mesmerized by zeitgeist,

"we have parasites in DC to focus on before we try any new experiments"
dude... it's never gonna change... 20% think the right are parasites, 20% think the left are parasites, 30% think they're all parasites... the rest don't bother at all...  -- the problem is with the system and it needs a massive overhaul.

"Referring to zeitgeist automatically makes you a socialist"
I haven't visited any socialist countries to see how this stuff actually works. But all I hear from Americans is that socialism is EVIL, then all I read is that the socialist countries have the happiest people in the world...

"but central planning is what got us here in the first place"
what?!?!???

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't read the whole thread but neone, KD, and jessica seem to be the only non-blockheads. It's a waste of time discussing this with you other guys.
And btw, the restoring genetics/health thing with raw diet was prooven with cats, I'm sure it would work with humans as well.


EDIT: just read the whole thread. no difference.
"pottenger's cats" was the study I was referring to, and KD I was just agreeing with your statement:
"that we can change our genetic expression through raw eating OVER TIME"

[KD]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't read the whole thread

. heh

And btw, the restoring genetics/health thing with raw diet was prooven with cats, I'm sure it would work with humans as well.

The potential over time for that is there, I was just saying that likely a few years on a raw diet will not drastically shift the genes passed on to the progeny. This is just my guess. Of course the mothers diet and general health of the people conceiving certainly should..but not so sure about the actual genetic inheritance. Either way, this idea that we have to out-breed the mutants or whatever doesn't vibe with me. Just sounds like Hasidim and Mormon twisted sh!t - gobbling up all the resources and telling people how it is and how they should live. Not to mention you hear this all the time from vegans and how life would be swank with more fruit or wheat plantations for the righteous and less meat eaters to stink up the planet.

[laterade]

"but central planning is what got us here in the first place"
what?!?!???

Central planning(socialism) is the insane idea that our problems are going to dissolve if we allow one group of people the right to do whatever is necessary to solve those problems. In order for that to work, the group of people must be more altruistic than any human is capable of. Good luck with that. Zeitgeist is attempting to use a system that doesn't work, to do things it has proven it can not. Slogans like "make everything free" are very compatible with a quote by PT Barnum "every second a sucker is born".

. heh
The potential over time for that is there, I was just saying that likely a few years on a raw diet will not drastically shift the genes passed on to the progeny. This is just my guess. Of course the mothers diet and general health of the people conceiving certainly should..but not so sure about the actual genetic inheritance. Either way, this idea that we have to out-breed the mutants or whatever doesn't vibe with me. Just sounds like Hasidim and Mormon twisted sh!t - gobbling up all the resources and telling people how it is and how they should live. Not to mention you hear this all the time from vegans and how life would be swank with more fruit or wheat plantations for the righteous and less meat eaters to stink up the planet.

The most important aspect of enhancing your lineage IMO would be the first years of your child's life. Adult's can only change so much.
Most of us were taken away from our mothers right after birth, many of us fed on bottles while our mothers worked, then weened off onto canned food. All the while being kept squeaky clean. I suspect things like this plays a huge role in not only social psychological development, but also physiological development of the brain. Not to worry though, a few generations of simply not going with the flow of conventional medicine will undoubtedly do great things. Easing back into nature is the best choice and the only choice IMO. Just try to get your city born girl to live and produce children in 100% natural environment, unless she is totally awesome(and foolish) she probably won't be down. It takes a village to raise a child anyway.

[MaximilianKohler]

Central planning(socialism) is the insane idea that our problems are going to dissolve if we allow one group of people the right to do whatever is necessary to solve those problems. In order for that to work, the group of people must be more altruistic than any human is capable of. Good luck with that. Zeitgeist is attempting to use a system that doesn't work, to do things it has proven it can not. Slogans like "make everything free" are very compatible with a quote by PT Barnum "every second a sucker is born".

No... that's not at all what zeitgeist/venus project is... there is no group of people that tells everyone what to do... venus project is much more like a scientifically/technologically advanced form of tribes.

If it ends up being necessary to have a smaller group of people making certain decisions then that group would be no different(except completely transparent, better designed, with no reasons for corruption) then current government assemblies.

[miles]

I haven't visited any socialist countries to see how this stuff actually works. But all I hear from Americans is that socialism is EVIL, then all I read is that the socialist countries have the happiest people in the world...

I think because they have no internal competition they are happy but become weak as a country, so they have to attack other countries to stay alive. That's why people see them as evil, but the people in them are happy.

Edit: I was talking about communism because that seemed to be what Max was talking about.

[magnetic]

I haven't visited any socialist countries to see how this stuff actually works.

Huh?  Don't you live in the US??

[sabertooth]

Its the same as it ever has been , once any civilization becomes too comfortable and complacent then they are besieged by Trojans that take over the infrastructure and begin to cannibalize the resources and eventually paradise gets lost.. It happens time and time again. Just as the peaceful, socialist earth loving tribes were slain by the barbarians and then lorded over by monarchs who offered them protection from the hoards.

The trend to curb the sex drive begins with the feudal lords not wanting their subjects to over breed to a point where their authority is challenged, by clans of high testosterone renegades(perhaps it goes back further in time, but just for illustration I will begin with there. These Ideas of overpopulation and sexual repression can be traced back before the days of robin hood. In the story the princess wore a chastity belt, and the young boy was chased down by the sheriffs dogs for killing a deer. In those days the tyrants knew that if young boys grew up off of game meat, then they would become to strong and viral to be kept in check, so they restricted hunting and would slit the throat of any man they found with a rabbit in the stew pot.

The corporate overlords of to day share the same feudal mentality(although they are not overtly as brutal) they have still done a reasonably good job at brainwashing the public into castrating themselves through propaganda geared toward masses.

They also now they have scientifically contrived  means other than out right malnourishment of robin hoods day, to keep the testosterone of the masses in check. Of course with the raw paleo diet we have found a way to fight back.

[CitrusHigh]

Huh?  Don't you live in the US??

haha M, well done!

Nice Richard!

~tommy boy

[jessica]

The most important aspect of enhancing your lineage IMO would be the first years of your child's life. Adult's can only change so much.
Most of us were taken away from our mothers right after birth, many of us fed on bottles while our mothers worked, then weened off onto canned food. All the while being kept squeaky clean. I suspect things like this plays a huge role in not only social psychological development, but also physiological development of the brain. Not to worry though, a few generations of simply not going with the flow of conventional medicine will undoubtedly do great things. Easing back into nature is the best choice and the only choice IMO. Just try to get your city born girl to live and produce children in 100% natural environment, unless she is totally awesome(and foolish) she probably won't be down. It takes a village to raise a child anyway.

i dont know why you think it is foolish for a city born girl to live and produce children in a 100% natural environment then you said easing into nature is the best choice....what?  

 we are taken away from our mothers at birth, but also the female role and human qualities that are generally associated with females and mothers i.e. sacrafice(selflessness/"suffering" for the benefit of something else..i.e the pain of birth, raising a child)) altruism have been marred by a history of POLITICS disguised as religion.  we disassociate from these things as humans, males and females, and forget the power that these qualities have.  instead we use lesser but equally powerful tactics to survive and reproduce...ie sexual attraction as image based, so sexual reproduction occurs even when factors are not proper to support or sustain children.  survival is no longer long term, it is immediate, mate now, eat now, buy comfort now, pleasure now etc, you mate with who can provide these things in the immediate future......it is more how easily we can do things in this generation with no regard that the ease with which we do things now makes the future generations we create now  less able to have that same level of health we experience now and creates a less stable and sustaining environment.  ie when a mother chooses to have a child in a hospital with full antibiotics, pain medicine etc...she is choosing to have an "easier" child birth at the cost of her childs health in the immediate future.  all of these things are one in the same.  had she known and taken the time to work towards natural child birth the birth would have been just as, if not MORE comfortable, and more healthful for herself and her child, HOWEVER THAT TAKES WORK and gaining knowledge NOW, because we are not born into societies or systems where these things are taught inherently

i am not putting blame on females or females who choose to have children in hospitals...that is just an example that is apt for this discussion etc...i am just trying to prove that if you KNOWINGLY bring a child into a world that is unsustainable for them and perhaps their grandchildren without doing  anything in the interim to work towards making it and them beneficial parts of the natural system you are asking for their sacrifice in the future for what you have not done for them now

to be honest i was born in the city, but ever man i see i ask the question...could he build a house, could he even start a fire? can he grow food, hunt? does he know how to find water...because honestly i see how benign of a society we live in now i cannot, with any sort of conscious, contribute to it and would not want to be in a relationship with a man who is apathetic enough to accept and destroy the environment that is the basic necessity, and the most basic influence, of what will nourish or malnourish myself, himself and our future generations
we are really that selfish to destroy what honestly sustains us(myself included, i am here on the computer)...when we look at the future we think it is necessary for everyone to have the same level of "civilized" comforts that we have now or the world is shit, but honestly if we do not have teh same level of air quality, water quality and food quality in the future the world will be shit, even for those who have all of the creature comforts we enjoy now, because those cannot be enjoyed if proper healthful and natural life cannot be sustained...........

[MaximilianKohler]

I think because they have no internal competition they are happy but become weak as a country, so they have to attack other countries to stay alive. That's why people see them as evil, but the people in them are happy.

Edit: I was talking about communism because that seemed to be what Max was talking about.

na, was talking about countries like denmark, finland, netherlands http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/economics-mainmenu-44/643
as far as I know they aren't attacking anyone ;]

[jessica]

ps i would just like to add that you all have been fooled into thinking that man is what created you and what sustains you...i would like to note that this is a trick of the religion and politics of recent history and our times.  man cannot himself create another human or another life form, nor can mans own creations...it still takes what was here first...nature(female element) as well as a balanced male input... and although man can derive from these things the ability to create a similar life form, he uses things he cannot himself create without other things that were here before him and that he himself is made out of..........so when you think of paper money as sustainance, you are operating on a very base level of understanding the true nature of what creates life.......when your livelyhood is a office job you are operating under the guise that the office is what creates your comfort level, your ability to have a decent life experience, and the more money you can make there the better your life and comfort will be and that of your childrens...however you cannot forget that you are again playing into the system that is destroying the future...a system built around producing unnecessary goods and services that people unnecessarily demand...a system set up with a man thinking that he can just go ahead and create whatever he wants in the immediate by taking elements of the natural world and turning them into things he DESIRES with no regard for the consequences to himself, his family, friends, community and environment....(not trying to shit on dudes i promise, females do/have totally unnecessary jobs/wants)

[laterade]

No... that's not at all what zeitgeist/venus project is... there is no group of people that tells everyone what to do... venus project is much more like a scientifically/technologically advanced form of tribes.

If it ends up being necessary to have a smaller group of people making certain decisions then that group would be no different(except completely transparent, better designed, with no reasons for corruption) then current government assemblies.

Watch the interview... the ones pushing the idea are fails. This technology is yet to be presented anyway.
All they have is a video expressing injustice.

IMO focusing on government(illusory structure) is a waste of time, people get along together just fine for the most part.
The only problems are the plethora of stupid ass ideas and people who act on them.
I get a feeling their kind is on the way out soon anyway. Within the next century.

i dont know why you think it is foolish for a city born girl to live and produce children in a 100% natural environment then you said easing into nature is the best choice....what? 

Easing back into over the course of generations.

Example... very simplified
You moving into a cabin in the woods eventually.
Your son growing up primarily outdoors.
Three generations later ( maybe when all of the SAD eaters have stopped pumping out kids and the party poopers are gone) your blood has found a place with sustainable wild food sources.

Something like that...

[MaximilianKohler]

Watch the interview... the ones pushing the idea are fails.

I saw it before. You linked it to me in another thread.
The only problem the guy seemed to have with the venus project was how they would decide which items would be manufactured without a price system.
All in all though, I don't think the venus project is close to being perfect yet. But zeitgeist/venus project at least explain and attempt to begin to tackle very severe problems with our society.

[magnetic]

Watch the interview... the ones pushing the idea are fails. This technology is yet to be presented anyway.
All they have is a video expressing injustice.

IMO focusing on government(illusory structure) is a waste of time, people get along together just fine for the most part.
The only problems are the plethora of stupid ass ideas and people who act on them.

Government is the action of systematizing stupid ass ideas.