Instinctive raw eating in practice

[Wattlebird]

New shellfish for me today, not one that I have found before on our stretch of the coastline. In the picture you can see 2 Spenglers Tritons, a Turban Snail, and the large one is the new one. I have emailed the pic to a shellfish expert to find out its name.
Whatever that may be, orange flesh, Abalone like taste, fishier than the other shellfish pictured.
Bloody tasty!

[Dorothy]

A neighbor just gave me a bag of cactus fruit from their cactus plant. It has been many, MANY years since I've had any so it will be interesting to give them a try again. The Native Americans in these parts relished them. I wonder how they ate them though with those spines and no leather gloves! Eating cactus sure takes some finesse.

[Iguana]

No problem, these little spines are soft; if you happen to have some stuck in your skin it will tickle for a while and that's all. You may perhaps even be able to pull them out if your fingernails are long enough. Handling the thing  carefully with your fingers between the spines should avoid being too much stung.

Nowadays the ones sold are machine-brushed, which takes away most of their spines. 

[Wattlebird]

rare morning meal today, eggs, lots and lots of eggs: ant eggs.
creamy and tasty.

[Hanna]

Eve:

That lamb which tasted like million dollars may at any time lose its savor.

No, I don't believe that - at least meat in general will most probably not lose its savor. The lamb is still delicious to me and what's more, almost every long-term instincto I know is able to (and does) eat meat very regularly (several times a week). So this claim gcb made in his book

With our method, we’ve been afforded further insight_that is, instincts sometimes make meat appealing, especially meat left out in the open for a while, exactly as instincts do with any natural food.

is simply not true. In humans, instincts as a rule make meat appealing very regularly.

Another point about the book quoted, is that it wasn't intended as a guide to practice instinctive nutrition, but just to make his theory known to the largest audience as possible. At the time, most of the people interested in nutrition where vegetarians, and I always felt he didn't want to drive them away by being too harsh against vegetarianism. Thus the tone, "yes, I understand you, folks, it would better if we could live without meat".

So you claimed that gcb lied just because he didn´t want to antagonize the vegetarians. You guys (you, gcb...) seem to have a very flexible relationship to the truth . In which other respects do you guys lie too?

For those interested in doing the experiment, he advised at the end of the book not to do it alone more then a week or so without having followed his introduction seminar, which lasted two days. 

Your implication that gcb told the participants of this seminar to eat animal food or meat regularly is another lie: I visited such a seminar and he didn´t tell us anything like that. On the contrary, he talked a lot about the dangers of eating meat (cancer etc.).

[Iguana]

is simply not true. In humans, instincts as a rule make meat appealing very regularly.

Do you mean GCB is a liar because he used the word “sometimes” when you think he should have used “regularly” instead?

So you claimed that gcb lied just because he didn´t want to antagonize the vegetarians. You guys (you, gcb...) seem to have a very flexible relationship to the truth . In which other respects do you guys lie too?

If we were born as liars, it’s not our fault if we lie in every respect, isn’t it? Seriously, I didn’t claim anything alike to what you’re saying. But anyway I have no intention to justify my own words. Take them as you like and if you judge that I lied, so be it for you.   

Your implication that gcb told the participants of this seminar to eat animal food or meat regularly is another lie: I visited such a seminar and he didn´t tell us anything like that. On the contrary, he talked a lot about the dangers of eating meat (cancer etc.).

Did I ever imply that GCB told anyone to eat anything regularly? That would be absolutely contrary to the very principles of his instinctotherapy. Again, you seem to confuse the advice to test the smell (or perhaps even the taste) of various foods regularly with the (never given) advice to eat or not to eat something. I know that after the death of Nicole he talked about the danger of eating too much meat, so it not exactly as you say about “the dangers of eating meat”.

Fortunately I’ll be away next week, so I won’t have to spend time and energy to counter the abusive posts of hostile posters like you. What am I doing here anyway? What rewards do I get? You and a few others make me feel that I should live my life without caring anymore to inform and help others.   

[eveheart]

Hanna, I didn't say "meat in general" will lose its savor. I think you are too busy prooftexting to make a clear point - in fact, your argument against my statement actually corroborates what I said.  If I let the idea that "I love lamb" override my sense of taste, I would chow down on lamb even when it did not appeal to me.

If instinctotherapie means following GCB's instincts and experiences, it would not be instinctotherapie.

[Hanna]

Iguana,
Gcb supressed the fact that instincts are attracted by meat/animal foods very regularly and, yes, that they should be eaten very regularly in order to stay healthy (I just hint at the vitamin B12 deficiency many instinctos suffered from). For beginners it is very important to know that because if they don't know, they will try to eat a vegan diet or an almost vegan diet because it is easier and seemingly healthier (no cancer etc.).

As far as I remember, gcb didn't even tell us to test the smell or the taste of meat regularly.

[Iguana]

Iguana,
Gcb supressed the fact that instincts are attracted by meat/animal foods very regularly

I wonder where you’ve got this strange idea. Anyway, even if he would have suppressed this fact (which is in no way the case), anyone should have spontaneously found it out just by applying his theory.

(I just hint at the vitamin B12 deficiency many instinctos suffered from).

Yes, I heard that some “instinctos” (mostly working at Orkos) were or became vegetarians / vegans after Nicole’s death and subsequent warning of GCB not to over-consume meat from  domesticated animals. There seem to have been a foolish overreaction from some guys, to the point that a few experienced a B12 deficiency.

As a matter of fact, the long term instinctos I know in Switzerland and France (as well as myself) didn’t believe that Nicole’s death was due to her hefty consumption of beef and we proceeded as before — but we had mostly other meats than beef.

For beginners it is very important to know that because if they don't know, they will try to eat a vegan diet or an almost vegan diet because it is easier and seemingly healthier (no cancer etc.).

Sure, it’s of the utmost importance. But again, I wonder how some people had the really weird impression that it’s recommended to avoid meat in the instincto theory!! 

As far as I remember, gcb didn't even tell us to test the smell or the taste of meat regularly.

Weren’t several kinds of meat along with various seafood and eggs the first foods presented everyday on the dinner table when you were there? Between 1987 and 1993 (I never stayed at the instincto center of Montramé latter on), it was always like that — just as in every instincto family that I know.

Animal foods are served first, I guess because we think it’s the most important food category and thus everyone can choose the kind he/she likes best. Usually, vegetables are presented next and various nuts come in third in case someone is still hungry. Then and finally some fruits may be presented. When GCB stayed here, I can tell you that we followed this dinner sequence and that himself chose an animal foodstuff every evening, or almost.

[Hanna]

"Gcb supressed the fact that instincts are attracted by meat/animal foods very regularly"
I wonder where you’ve got this strange idea. Anyway, even if he would have suppressed this fact (which is in no way the case), anyone should have spontaneously found it out just by applying his theory.

Well, I should have said "concealed". He concealed this fact in his book, perhaps because many (or most) people interested in nutrition are influenced by vegetarian ideas.

Yes, I heard that some “instinctos” (mostly working at Orkos) were or became vegetarians / vegans after Nicole’s death and subsequent warning of GCB not to over-consume meat from  domesticated animals. There seem to have been a foolish overreaction from some guys, to the point that a few experienced a B12 deficiency.

Not only a few, and not only those who became vegans, but almost everyone who underwent a blood test in order to explore whether or not he suffers from a vitamin B12 deficiency. It seems to be important to eat animal foods several times a week in order to prevent a B12 deficiency

But again, I wonder how some people had the really weird impression that it’s recommended to avoid meat in the instincto theory!!

Nobody claimed anything like that. But either gcb didn´t realize the importance of eating animal foods including meat on a regular and frequent basis (long-term!) or he deliberately concealed it.

Weren’t several kinds of meat along with various seafood and eggs the first foods presented everyday on the dinner table when you were there?

No.
- - - -
I have continued to eat meat (lamb), and I continue to like it. However, i still eat more fish (and seafood) than meat, cause most of the time I like seafood more. So fish is still my favorite food.
I noticed some strange, but harmless physical symptoms (such as pimples) after I began to eat meat. Not sure whether this is detoxification or intoxication or just coincidence...

[Iguana]

It seems to be important to eat animal foods several times a week in order to prevent a B12 deficiency

Of course, and not only to prevent B12 deficiency but also to feel satisfied. As I said, all the serious long term "instinctos" that I know, including GCB himself, eat some animal food almost every day — something like 6 days per week in average. It looks like many went on a divergent course lately (as a frenzy overreaction), especially in Montramé after the Burger family was no longer there and in Germany according to what you say.

I don't know who did the translation of this old rough guideline for beginners (probably from the first edition of "La guerre du cru") with the odd mention of "sprouted cereals", but anyway here it is:

http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggpractadv.html
PRACTICAL ADVICE FOR BEGINNING ANOPSOTHERAPY

12 - Have just two meals a day, around noon and 6 pm. Lunch should include two sequences : one with fresh fruits and another with nuts and oil-bearing seeds. Dinner may have up to four or five sequences : (1) animal proteins, (2) vegetables and sprouted cereals, (3) fresh fruits if desired, (4) nuts and oil-bearing seeds, and finally (5) dried fruits and honey.

17 – (…) Be suspicious of any preconceived ideas about particular foodstuffs (e.g. meat, exotic fruits, etc...).

Cheers
François

[Adora]

Wattlebird, that picture is so cool. If I ever get to Australia, would you show me how you scope out dinner for the beautiful blue sea?

[Wattlebird]

Wattlebird, that picture is so cool. If I ever get to Australia, would you show me how you scope out dinner for the beautiful blue sea?

:)Hi Adora
we recently hosted fellow forumite 'Alive' at our place and we thoroughly enjoyed his company. I trust he too would vouch for the great time.
Should you ever venture to Oz, I would love to show you the tasty delights of these seas. Plenty of different types of seafood!
The name of the big shellfish in the picture is still not known, though it was with mixed emotion (and a squeal from the shellfish) but with gratitude that I ate him anyway. 
Kind wishes, J

[LePatron7]

You know... I've had my doubts about instincto. I've always thought to myself that sweet fruits would ALWAYS be the most appealing, and If I went based on taste alone, I'd eat nothing but fruit.

But tonight.... I had a change of heart. I was at a place where they had free apples. I eat VERY little raw plant foods right now, so I was indulging on the apples. I had one, then two, then three. Then on my fourth one, I took two bites and chucked it. It no longer tasted as good, and I felt a strong signal that I had had enough apples.

It wasn't that I was full, apples absorb quickly and all I had was waters the whole night.

[Adora]

Wattlebird, I am there. It will be 2 years of hard work and prayers, but your invite makes it all much sweeter. Thank you.

I'm enjoying being zero carb. I would still like to explore instinctive, but with zero, or low carb treats like seaweed and fish. Not sweet fruit. Is that possible/healthful IYO?

Other instinto's opinions are also welcome. I realize that ZC is not what GCB advocated, but for me, for now it's helping me recover/rest/heal from carb addiction. Instinctive eating helped too, I had definite stops. I just feel like ZC is best right now, and I want to incorporate instinctive relationship with the ZC foods I am eating. 

[Alive]

Yes Wattlebird, I had a fabulous time staying with you and your delightful family, exploring a bit of the incredible landscape, seeing heaps of new types of wildlife, lots of swimming in warm water, going for walks, eating instinctively...  adds up to a unique and very healing experience

I am thinking like you Adora, that it is a good idea to be aware of our carb weaknesses and moderate the amount of fruit we eat, to provide the best healing environment for our bodies to rebuild themselves. Recently I am enjoying lots of cucumbers, some apples and the occasional NZ grapefruit.

[eveheart]

I'm enjoying being zero carb. I would still like to explore instinctive, but with zero, or low carb treats like seaweed and fish. Not sweet fruit. Is that possible/healthful IYO?

Other instinto's opinions are also welcome. I realize that ZC is not what GCB advocated, but for me, for now it's helping me recover/rest/heal from carb addiction. Instinctive eating helped too, I had definite stops. I just feel like ZC is best right now, and I want to incorporate instinctive relationship with the ZC foods I am eating. 

I am instincto, and I am VLC, so very-low as to be virtually ZC. I do VLC therapeutically to heal metabolic disorder. This is my experience: (1) I started RPD with instincto and ate a full range of plant foods along with animal foods; (2) much later, I eliminated fruits and starchy vegetables because they made me feel sluggish, even in small amounts, even when they appealed to me by taste or smell; (3) by experimental stages, I realized that I felt better with VLC or ZC, and (4) I eliminated all carb foods from my menu, selecting by instinctotherapy when and what to eat.

I think this is justified within my understanding of instincto. After all, instincto practitioners don't have to smell and taste rat poison in order to eliminate it from their diet. My range of "non-poisonous" foods are those which result in burning fat for energy, i.e., a minimum need for insulin. This is how I define ZC or VLC, by describing the insulin response to a food, not by calling my abnormal carb-insulin cycle an addiction to carbs.

Two things I know for sure: learning what's best for me is a slow process, and nobody else can teach me what's right (but they can give me information to experiment with).

[Wattlebird]

Wattlebird, I am there. It will be 2 years of hard work and prayers, but your invite makes it all much sweeter. Thank you.

I'm enjoying being zero carb. I would still like to explore instinctive, but with zero, or low carb treats like seaweed and fish. Not sweet fruit. Is that possible/healthful IYO?

Other instinto's opinions are also welcome. I realize that ZC is not what GCB advocated, but for me, for now it's helping me recover/rest/heal from carb addiction. Instinctive eating helped too, I had definite stops. I just feel like ZC is best right now, and I want to incorporate instinctive relationship with the ZC foods I am eating.

Hi Adora
since later reading GCB instincto teachings (I came at this from another angle) I respect his work enormously.  For what its worth, I cant speak for GCB, but from my point of view from a meditation/spiritual background, one starts off with a particular teaching - some guidelines if you like - then after much work and understanding how and why the guidelines are in place and their implications, one discards the guidelines. Not because the guidelines are wrong, but rather because in the early days one needs particular concepts and frameworks to follow to get ones head around, to give something one to follow. As ones practice continues, and if it continues with dedication for a long time, the guidelines start to fall away, as clutching at 'mind' concepts diminishes, and what has always been there, but has been obscured, starts to shine through.
Then, theres not so much to follow anymore.
So I guess what I am trying to say in a long winded way, is if sweet carbs (fruit) - for whatever reason doesn't work - so be it. For what my opinion is worth, no need to be dogmatic about it, rather use the framework of Instinctive Eating, if you are so drawn, as it relates best to your situation.
And furthermore, life is not static, it is transient, changeable, and so who knows what further changes, there may or may not be in the future.
Kind wishes, J

[Wattlebird]

Yes Wattlebird, I had a fabulous time staying with you and your delightful family, exploring a bit of the incredible landscape, seeing heaps of new types of wildlife, lots of swimming in warm water, going for walks, eating instinctively...  adds up to a unique and very healing experience

I am thinking like you Adora, that it is a good idea to be aware of our carb weaknesses and moderate the amount of fruit we eat, to provide the best healing environment for our bodies to rebuild themselves. Recently I am enjoying lots of cucumbers, some apples and the occasional NZ grapefruit.

Hi Alive,
I am about to go for my morning walk soon - after a few days of sun - in the mist. Will head out somewhere along the headland, dragging my hand in the bushes and trying to avoid? a tick bite That last one sure made for some interesting change downstairs with its loving? kiss!  They sure know how to work their way to the most tender bits.
Yes, am enjoying cucumbers too at present. Fortunate that they are available at a great price!
Kind wishes, J

[Iguana]

You know... I've had my doubts about instincto. I've always thought to myself that sweet fruits would ALWAYS be the most appealing, and If I went based on taste alone, I'd eat nothing but fruit.

We tend to think that way before we’ve experienced the thing, but when practicing we very quickly feel that we also need other foods than fruits. There’s an built-in regulation system which makes that if we eat mostly fruits for a few days, we start to eagerly look out for other foods. I usually eat fruits for lunch, but sometimes I’m fed up with fruits and then I eat oysters at lunch, for example.   

But tonight.... I had a change of heart. I was at a place where they had free apples. I eat VERY little raw plant foods right now, so I was indulging on the apples. I had one, then two, then three. Then on my fourth one, I took two bites and chucked it. It no longer tasted as good, and I felt a strong signal that I had had enough apples.

Yes, that’s the way it works. And it works even better with wild fruits, or at least wilder fruits than apples.

I'm enjoying being zero carb. I would still like to explore instinctive, but with zero, or low carb treats like seaweed and fish. Not sweet fruit. Is that possible/healthful IYO?

Other instinto's opinions are also welcome. I realize that ZC is not what GCB advocated, but for me, for now it's helping me recover/rest/heal from carb addiction. Instinctive eating helped too, I had definite stops. I just feel like ZC is best right now, and I want to incorporate instinctive relationship with the ZC foods I am eating. 

My view is that to eat ZC, we have to know what carbohydrates are and which foods contain it. It’s something animals and our paleo ancestors ignored. But they have nevertheless been able to balance their food intake in the best way to survive in a environment full of dangers and predators. The ones improperly selecting their foods were victims of natural selection and died without offsprings.   

Dietetic science and knowledge is not only unnecessary, but it also disturbs the practice of instinctive nutrition. Our body knows much better then our intellect what, when and how much to eat. Thus we’d better try to forget everything we learned about foods composition, supposed benefits or nuisances.

one starts off with a particular teaching - some guidelines if you like - then after much work and understanding how and why the guidelines are in place and their implications, one discards the guidelines. Not because the guidelines are wrong, but rather because in the early days one needs particular concepts and frameworks to follow to get ones head around, to give something one to follow. As ones practice continues, and if it continues with dedication for a long time, the guidelines start to fall away, as clutching at 'mind' concepts diminishes, and what has always been there, but has been obscured, starts to shine through.
Then, there’s not so much to follow anymore.

And furthermore, life is not static, it is transient, changeable, and so who knows what further changes, there may or may not be in the future.

That’s what I think too and you explained it in a better way than I could have done myself!

[Hanna]

I ate wild boar for the first times. It was very tasty and spicy, had a deep flavor, tasted much better than, for example, salted raw bacon. However, for me there is still nothing as satisfying as fatty fish, so I guess, that seafood will remain my favorite food for the time beeing. Today I bought venison - it´s smell is amazing...

[Iguana]

Tonight I ate the remains, about 1 kg, of the  wild boar leg which had been in my fridge for some 50 days. It was covered with a nice and tasty layer of  mold. I ate it all, the next fresh wild boar parts being still there maturing in that fridge*. (Tasted some of this new one yesterday, it's very tasty too and with some fat.)

Later I had a bit of cauliflower and some fennel, plus some macadamia nuts. Somewhat later still, 3 overripe persimmons. I gathered those persimmons more than a month ago on a neighbor's tree.

* The instincto-farmer-hunter friend called me in the afternoon to tell me he got one more and asked me if I want some. I said I have more than enough meat for a while because he also provided me with a whole nutria a few days ago. I never ate any and still didn't taste this one except its liver which had a very strong and quickly unpleasant taste. I'll try it again soon.

 

[Hanna]

In the morning I ate the venison (male deer) hanging in the fridge. Its taste reminded me strongly of liver - I could hardly believe that I was NOT eating liver. 

[Hanna]

I ate venison (male deer) again - this time its taste was fantastic. Venison will probably become one of my favorite meats.
 
A few days ago I had a blood test.
My iron (51 ug/dl) and ferritin (21.5 ug/l) values are in the normal range for the first time since sometime in my childhood (AFAIK). My vitamin B12 value is in the normal range now (242 ng/l), but could / should certainly be higher.  Other values:
Triglycerides: 44 mg/dl
LDL: 45 mg/dl
HDL: 59 mg/dl
LDL/HDL: 0.8
Serum glucose: 78 mg/dl

[Hanna]

I read that also the ferritin level should ideally be higher, although the  normal range was specified as 10-291 by the lab.