Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil Question

[Duke]

No haven't tried the ratfish oil.  As to the Krill,  I don't think it has Vit D. Although not sure.  let me know if you do try it.  To add to me take on Ice blue...  In the winter in Norway and other northern countries there's obviously little if any sunlight, hence to their credit, someone found a way to get the Vit D. rich oils out of the livers.  Back then no one knew of oxidized omega threes.  And my guess is that it would have hard to simply press the livers to extract the oil.  I spoke at length to a salmon oil processor in Alaska.  He swore that you'd not get any real oil out of the salmon carcasses they buy if one didn't add heat.  He claimed to got to 130 F.  Not that early peoples could not have added heat, but probably found it much easier to simple throw the livers in a wooden barrel and let the proteins become denatured by rotting, and my guess is that the oil will then float to the surface or can be strained from the broken down fleshy proteins.  It was described to me by the owner of Ice blue that this fermented process was a time honor method that has been used for centuries but of course is only used by a few remaining peoples and how time or labor intensive it is.  Also when I was in Norway I wanted to find a raw cod liver and eat it.  But the one caught by the friend I made at the hotel with boat launch, was full of what looked to be cancerous lesions, or something that you wouldn't want to eat.  So I never got to bite into an oily rich cod liver.  Oh well.

Krill oil has trace amounts of vitamin D. You cant rely on it as a primary source of vitamin d. 

[TylerDurden]

PP recommended "Kriaxanthin" Krill Oil as being far superior, raw-wise, than Dr Mercola's own Krill-Oil supplement.  Given my own reservations re Mercola, I suspect PP is absolutely right.

[CitrusHigh]

I don't remember and don't have time just at present to hunt it down. But cold extraction can be with chemicals. Cold pressed is a mechanical extraction, but I don't think that's what he uses.

*Wait, Breaking News* There is apparently a thread about krill oil already and perhaps two other threads....

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/krill-oil/20/

I will defer to that thread for info, looks like PaleoPhil did his homework!

EDIT: Damn, Ty beat me to it!

Van, according to my searching, the vikings did use heat, to extract every last drop of oil from the already rotted tissue. But first they would let it ferment in barrels. Then ladel off the risen oil. Then I think they let it ferment some more. Then ladel. Then cook, then ladel. Could be wrong, someone would have to fact check.

[Duke]

I have gone through PP research but i am still unclear about certain things:

1) Aker Biomarine supplies Mercola with their weaker version of krill oil; Could it be because Mercola asked them to process it in a cold extraction method where the krill oil concentration becomes less unless you prepare it like NKO?

2) Even if the extraction is with ethanol, ethanol is just alcohol no? Not like acetone for example?

3) Kriaxanthin doesnt state the content of phospholipids in their product whereas Mercola and Neptune do, phospholipids are what keeps the krill oil fresh and bioavailable for you to reap its benefits otherwise it will oxidize irrespective of the cold extraction method.

I am not really looking for the most potent product out there like Neptune's, i just want to know that what i will be taking is a source free from toxins and a high quality products with lots of integiry because the benefits will come in the long run . The potency can be moderate to high for all i care in the short term.

Any comments? 

[PaleoPhil]

PP recommended "Kriaxanthin" Krill Oil as being far superior, raw-wise, than Dr Mercola's own Krill-Oil supplement.  Given my own reservations re Mercola, I suspect PP is absolutely right.

Thanks, but I tend to look at it as providing info and letting people decide for themselves. I try to avoid recommending things directly to others, but I'm not complaining or anything. I just abhor the thought of ever becoming any sort of guru. I would rather that folks think for themselves and do whatever works for them.

Duke, I'm afraid I don't remember much about what I posted about Kriaxanthin, other than that Dr. Mercola's claims didn't seem to quite match the info I found elsewhere and krill oil didn't come across as quite as raw or beneficial as it was portrayed by folks selling it, like Mercola (I try to maintain a skeptical attitude toward anyone who's selling a product they recommend, so I'm not picking on Dr. Mercola). I use Green Pasture's raw fermented cod liver oil intermittently and mainly eat raw wild fish (and raw pasture-fed red meats), so I haven't looked into krill oil again since my posts.

[CitrusHigh]

As far as I know Mercola says: "Quality is of the essence when selecting any supplement and krill oil is no exception. The only kind of krill oil I recommend is genuine  processed krill.

Krill is collected in pristine deep-water seas far from industrial areas, and is harvested in compliance with international conservation standards. It’s also processed through a cold extraction method that preserves the biological benefits of the krill, and creates an oil that is free of heavy metals, PCBs, dioxins and other contaminants."

So avoid any brand that only has "krill" oil and look for one that you are certain contains krill oil."



What did your research tell you? Mercola is very particular about the integrity of his products again as far as i know. So that's new to me...Can you tell me what did you find out that wasnt pretty about his krill oil?

Mercola is a DOCTOR and a SALESMAN. His words are pretty much the only thing of value that he peddles and even then you have to be very skeptical. He has done us a great service promoting raw animal foods, including meats, but because of his training as a doctor he thinks things have to be homogenized and 'dosed'. In otherwords, he is peddling industrial supplements, not REAL food. Why are you so bent on getting krill  oil duke?

[CitrusHigh]

Just ran across this pertinent article, enjoy!

http://www.cookingtf.com/does-oxidation-effect-fermentation/

Doesn't really answer the question of whether our FCLO has oxidized fats in it, but helps a bit.

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

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Re: Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil Question
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 01:37:11 am »
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I often spread/pour it on fish. It's nice with tuna.
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"Have no limitation as limitation" - Bruce Lee

Author of, 'The Raw Paleo Diet & Lifestyle: why I eat my meat raw and why you should too!'

QUESTION:
Have you ever tried pouring it on raw beef, pork, lamb, chicken etc. to give it an enhanced fishy taste?

[goodsamaritan]

Hey Francis, since you really are into the fishy taste these days, why not just follow your instinct and just eat fishy ocean food for now?

[van]

Just ran across this pertinent article, enjoy!

http://www.cookingtf.com/does-oxidation-effect-fermentation/

Doesn't really answer the question of whether our FCLO has oxidized fats in it, but helps a bit.

   If you follow the logic of the author here where she goes into getting all the oxygen out of the fermenting vessel to avoid oxidation...   When they throw fish into these barrels to ferment, those fish are full of air, especially if they've been gutted to remove the intestines, as well as air in their gills and mouths, stomachs,  etc.       Now if they were to then fill the barrels with some liquid and pull vacuum, then they might be able to remove the oxygen from their fermenting product.    To my taste, Fermented Blue is an oxidized fat, just as is the beef fat that hangs in my fridge for over three weeks, and that is primarily saturated fat, hardly as damaging as pufa's that are oxidized. 

[FRANCIS HOWARD BOND]

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Re: Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil Question
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2014, 11:42:43 pm »
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Hey Francis, since you really are into the fishy taste these days, why not just follow your instinct and just eat fishy ocean food for now?
REPLY:
Many thanks for your advice, which I value.   As a fisherman I just loved the fresh fish we trawled up among the oil rigs of the North Sea.   They increased my enthusiasm for really fresh raw fish, which I now buy from a Fishmonger who calls here on Friday mornings.   I guess I could eat it till it comes out of my gills, and any not eaten fresh is kept several weeks till it has gone rotten.   I like it either very fresh or extremely rotten - and quite a bit in between.   I do love raw pork and raw chicken and also rotten chicken, but have not tried rotten pork yet.   Lamb and beef and turkey are good too, but I tend to stick with what I am eating for some time, so will stay with the fish now, both fresh and very rotten.   Still need some encouragement to try raw entrails and raw intestines, but would really like to try them if obtainable.   You may be surprised, but they actually appeal to me!

[van]

   If you follow the logic of the author here where she goes into getting all the oxygen out of the fermenting vessel to avoid oxidation...   When they throw fish into these barrels to ferment, those fish are full of air, especially if they've been gutted to remove the intestines, as well as air in their gills and mouths, stomachs,  etc.       Now if they were to then fill the barrels with some liquid and pull vacuum, then they might be able to remove the oxygen from their fermenting product.    To my taste, Fermented Blue is an oxidized fat, just as is the beef fat that hangs in my fridge for over three weeks, and that is primarily saturated fat, hardly as damaging as pufa's that are oxidized. 

  I felt a little silly after posting this,,  for I forgot they are just fermenting the livers and not the whole fish.  Livers would have a better ability to lay neatly against each other with minimal air entrapment. 

[PaleoPhil]

To my taste, Fermented Blue is an oxidized fat, just as is the beef fat that hangs in my fridge for over three weeks, and that is primarily saturated fat, hardly as damaging as pufa's that are oxidized.

Van, The concerns re: raw fermentation-produced-CLO (RFPCLO) were already addressed in this thread: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/study-finds-oxidized-(aka-'rancid')-fish-oil-to-be-benign/msg109922/#msg109922

Please do let us know if you come across any data showing high levels of peroxides in Green Pastures RFPCLO or harm from the recommended doses of RFPCLO, aside from your guess that your throat sting from RFCLO is a bad sign--which the Healthy Home Economist claimed is a good sign:

Keep in mind that sometimes the fermented cod liver oil can cause a slight burning sensation in the throat, which is due to the beneficial lactic acid from the fermentation. - See more at: http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-best-supplement/#sthash.0Z5RHQsw.dpuf

I can't find it now, but I also recall reading that the fermentation process produces natural antioxidants that prevent any significant oxidation for a long time, or something along those lines. This is apparently one reason that Eskimos preserve seal and whale oil and other fat sources via fermentation (note: the fat itself isn't fermented, as you pointed out--the protein around it is, and this apparently preserves, as well as concentrates, the oils).

Is the throat tingle really so concerning as to cause you to still be more negative about raw FPCLO than you were about standard heated cod liver oil and Dr. Mercola's krill oil (which reportedly doesn't contain much vitamin A and D, and is also heated)? I have yet to notice any critical remarks from you about the heated oils.

I actually liked the tingle, and it went away after a period of use. There seems to be an adjustment period.

What are your vitamin D levels? Mine were measured low, despite eating grass fed fats, fish, oysters, some duck eggs, and other food sources, and trying to get sun exposure and also trying some of Todd Becker's other alternatives to vitamin D supplements. So I'm back to taking reasonable doses of RFPCLO. My healthcare practitioner said that nearly everyone she tests is low in vitamin D. I suspect I may be low in vitamin A too.

We do agree that it's wise to not overdo it on CLO or other sources of PUFAs, even raw Paleo. The dose makes the poison. I think that omega-3 PUFA still tends to get oversold in Paleo circles. My main reason for taking the RFPCLO some days is the vitamins A and D, rather than the fish oil.

[van]

Phil, I get it regarding concerns for getting enough Vit. D.   And it seems like a plausible payoff ( even if the oil is oxidized).  I would like to turn it around, and suggest you find a lab report that has done an oxidation study on this oil.    Pretty hard to imagine it's out there,,,.    I've said this before,, just because some ancient peoples ate a certain food doesn't mean it's healthy for us.   And in the case of the Inuit etc, survival was key.  As was appeasing their sense of taste, just like we need that appeasement, especially when bored.   And I imagine living in a ice house for long periods became just that.   And yes, I think the tingling would go away, just as many harsh signals go away from foods and drinks after the initial warning; look at the first puff on a cigarette, or drink or wine, or whiskey...   So, none of these inferences persuade me.  You've quoted Ray Peat with applaud from time to time.   Yet you don't seem to heed his warning on pufa's?   And of course it's sane to use what seems appropriate from these 'educators'.     Speculations about the fermenting process keeping the pufa from being oxidized.  Was there any science behind that, or was that marketing? 
    Regarding krill oil.   I personally called the processing plant that processes Mercola's product.  Yes, they use heat.  And no, I haven't thought of using it since I found it out.  As I may have mentioned before,,, I spent weeks if not months trying to search out any cold processed fish oil.  I found one in Alaska, and one in Norway,, some years ago.  I bought small samples of each ( both had been produced just weeks if not days before it landed at my door.  Both had a disgusting oxidized bite and smell ( and I'm not talking bad fish odor).   The same is true of the many times I've bought flax seed oil.   From Barleens, literally days after it's been pressed ( as in the next day) I had it next dayed to me.  Tasted fine the first day,, after one week in the fridge, it developed a bite.   The same experiment I tested years ago with wheat germ.   Years ago there was a product called next day fresh.     It was shipped next day to health food stores around the country.  I got to my health food store, was buying six day old wheat germ in the fridge ( head inside the bulk  fridge door ) and the ups guy walks up and places the 3 gallon pail inside the door,, milled the day before. The difference was astounding.  Right there, tasting one, then the other,  the six day old tasted fine until I sampled the one day old germ.   It was only then that I noticed the bite of oxidized wheat germ (oil).    I know what oxidation tastes and feels like.     And I have to admit, now that my ducks aren't laying right now ( three times higher in Vit D than chicken eggs) I too have been tempted to experiment with cod oil.  But not heated, chemically refined.....

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the clarifications and info, Van.

I've said this before,, just because some ancient peoples ate a certain food doesn't mean it's healthy for us.

Of course, and I've also said I'm not into re-enactment many times before, including in my avatar description. Did you not notice it? I haven't said otherwise with CLO, so I'm not sure why you're repeating that now. It's also possible to go too far to the extreme in the other direction. Why should many generations of experience by multiple peoples just be thrown out for no good reason? Wouldn't that be unscientific? Anthropologists and evolutionary biologists certainly take it seriously. It's not about one form of evidence versus another. I keep my mind open to and use ALL the valid evidence available to me and don't exclude evidence just because it doesn't fit my pre-existing hypothesis (which would be an example of confirmation bias).

You've quoted Ray Peat with applaud from time to time.   Yet you don't seem to heed his warning on pufa's?

Why would I have to agree with every jot and tittle of what Ray Peat says about PUFA's just because I agree with him on some things? Wouldn't that also be unscientific? I explained this already with regards to Jack Kruse, after Iguana asked me about him. I don’t feel the need to absolutely agree with anyone on everything.

Besides, I do share Peat's concern on PUFA's, I just don't fear them to the extreme that he does. Have you seen what I've written about hormesis and "The dose makes the poison"? If it wasn't understandable, below is a link to a blog article on it that summarizes it pretty nicely. However, the author apparently initially missed that sensible hormesis isn't about focusing only on hormetic stress (eustress) therapies--it's about using and balancing both eustress and de-stress therapies. The article is nonetheless especially relevant because he also talks about how Ray Peat and Peat-atarians don't take hormesis sufficiently into account. Here's an excerpt:

Peat-atarians and Fear of Hormetic Stress
Jan 11, 2013 by MAS
http://criticalmas.com/2013/01/peat-atarians-and-fear-of-hormetic-stress
"In [the Peat-atarians'] obsession with reducing all forms of stress, they go too far. From my readings and more importantly, my personal experience, lack of stress builds fragility. The key is finding ways to episodically, not chronically, expose your body to safe stressors. This teaches your body resilience. This is called hormesis."

In case it still isn't clear, just because I posted a link to that article doesn't mean I agree with every bit of it, nor am I asking you to.

I already provided in another thread the lab report re: oxidation from Green Pastures before. I don't get the sense that you're going to accept that report because of the source, are you? Of course no one besides a seller will ever pay for a study on RFPCLO. There just isn't enough profit to fund studies that are seller-funded for most raw foods. That doesn't mean that raw foods aren't at all beneficial for anyone.

My current choice is between a raw CLO (from fermentation) foodlement and heated and refined supplements. Don't you normally give the benefit of the doubt to raw over cooked and more heavily processed? Which would you choose? Do you think I could save some money and still get a good result from the heated vitamin D supplements? I wish that grassfed meat and fat, pastured eggs, sunlight, cold therapy and so on had been enough to attain a decent vitamin D status, but so far they haven't, though my zinc status has improved wonderfully since including more RS-rich foods in my diet. Do you have any other ideas? Did you say yet what your vitamin D levels are?

In case anyone might get another miss-impression, I'm not interested in raising my low vitamin D status just for the sake of the numbers. My "doc," studies and multiple reports from other people suggest that doing so provides real health benefits and reduces risk of certain problems down the road. I do like Todd Becker's approach of trying to do it without supplements and I'm hoping that raw Paleo foods and hormetic therapies like his will enable me to get along without supplements or even foodlements in the longer run.

I too have been tempted to experiment with cod oil.  But not heated, chemically refined.....

If you find something good, please do share what you find.

I hope this all helps explain what I meant. You're of course free to do whatever you wish and I'm not trying to prescribe for anyone else. YMMV. Good luck with whatever course you choose!