Why can't Tyler do zero carb?

[Satya]

Hi Tyler and all.  When you get a moment, would you please explain why zero carb did not work for you?  I'd like to know how long you were carnivore and perhaps what amount of plant foods you consume in a typical week currently.  I think you eat randomly, which is why I ask for the rough weekly average.

Please know that I did search the yahoo group for this info, and I am not finding it so easily.  I have cut back heavily on plants, am interested in perhaps trying an almost carnivore diet this winter (mostly raw), and would like to know the possible pitfalls of such an approach from someone who didn't do so well on it.

Thanks.  Anyone who tried zero carb and had issues is welcome to chime in.

[TylerDurden]

Well, I tried  2 or 3 zero-carb experiments for a few weeks each, c.3-4(?) years into the diet. They were disastrous. At first, I would get a great feeling of enhanced concentration and energy-boosts, then, after  a period of 2-3 weeks get massive carb-cravings, after that period I would get increasing fatigue, feel extremely dehydrated(even though I kept on drinking lots of mineral-water), and my appetite would collapse so that I would have to struggle to force down a little raw animal food each day. By week 4 I'd have massive fatigue.

I vary my intake of plant-food so much, it's impossible to say how much I consume, these days. Some weeks, I'll have only 0-300g of blueberries, say, other times, I'll load up on the raw carbs(I make it a rule to go for raw carbs during certain gatherings, rather than eat cooked foods).

[Nicola]

I would get increasing fatigue, feel extremely dehydrated(even though I kept on drinking lots of mineral-water)

Salt has to do with hydration, fatigue!

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Salt has to do with hydration, fatigue!

Nicola

I actually tried adding salt during one of those experiments, in order to enhance my appetite. It didn't work.

[Kristelle]

Tyler,

To me, it's clear you were in ketosis, the symptoms are so characteristic of ketosis. I know...been there and this can be researched as well. But eventually, one becomes keto-adapted and doesn't experience all that. I'm currently at that stage and I can tell you...it's AMAZING!!! Truly. I'm never ever going to carbs.

One remains in ketosis either because of too many carbs in the diet (even from organ meats or shellfish and you eat include a good deal), because they haven't given it enough time (a maximum of 2 months, it seems) or because of a consumption of too many fats in which case, one is keto-adapted but producing excess ketones due to excess dietary fat, hence ketosis.

It's clear, in my case, my ketosis was due to excess fats. In Tyler's case, I suspect too many carbs from organ meats especially which leads me to believe that Inuits couldn't have eaten so much organ meat because that would have left them in a state of constant ketosis...certainly not efficient and healthy.

My 2 cents...

[TylerDurden]

Tyler,

To me, it's clear you were in ketosis, the symptoms are so characteristic of ketosis. I know...been there and this can be researched as well. But eventually, one becomes keto-adapted and doesn't experience all that. I'm currently at that stage and I can tell you...it's AMAZING!!! Truly. I'm never ever going to carbs.

One remains in ketosis either because of too many carbs in the diet (even from organ meats or shellfish and you eat include a good deal), because they haven't given it enough time (a maximum of 2 months, it seems) or because of a consumption of too many fats in which case, one is keto-adapted but producing excess ketones due to excess dietary fat, hence ketosis.

It's clear, in my case, my ketosis was due to excess fats. In Tyler's case, I suspect too many carbs from organ meats especially which leads me to believe that Inuits couldn't have eaten so much organ meat because that would have left them in a state of constant ketosis...certainly not efficient and healthy.

My 2 cents...

Fair enough. But on at least 1 such experiment I made sure to avoid (carb-containing) raw liver, except in very small, fortnightly  amounts, and only ate meats/organs from land mammals(with lots of raw suet), with no carb-heavy stuff such as oysters or mussels.
Plus, the effects weren't just awkward but almost life-threatening(I had heart-palpitations etc.) At the time, 3 years of rawpalaeo(2.5 years of non-dairy rawpalaeo?). I agree that it's possible to do zero-carb properly, like Lex, with no issues, but there will always be people with unique circumstances etc. who can't handle certain foods like raw carbs or zero-carb or whatever. Craig suggested an issue with adrenal burnout - I had former adrenal-related issues, but, while they'd cleared up by then, it's always possible that my adrenals were functioning OK but not enough to sustain zero-carb - a wild guess.

I suppose it is possible that I was eating too much raw fat, as I made sure to eat vast amounts of tongue and suet/marrow to avoid the scare re rabbit-starvation. Not sure whether I want to risk doing another trial for 2 months or more - I mean, the usual limit for me is 5 weeks before I have to give up.

[Kristelle]

I had those heart palpitations too...definetly ketosis. Perhaps too much fat or glycogen from organ meats. I was also so worried about rabbit starvation that I overdid the fats...not an uncommon occurrence among zero-carbers.

[wodgina]

Ketosis is bad, keto adapted is good I'm starting to get my head around it. I think I'm in ketosis because I eat a lot of liver and fat maybe too much.  85% calories come from fat and I tend to overeat. I have also been doing a lot of cardio so I must be switching between the being keto-adapted and then wasting them. I haven't noticed any adrenal problems from that.

Yep, heart palpitations like I've never had when I started zero carb, especially when surfing. Its an explosive sport so I don't know how that effected it. I got a little freaked at one stage. Don't get them that bad anymore though.

Ok, I will have to try cutting down on my fat. Heading for Keto-nirvana.

Andrew

[coconinoz]

"the effects weren't just awkward but almost life-threatening(I had heart-palpitations etc.)"

as many others beginning their ketogenic experiences, myself i went through the heart palpitation thing for a few weeks some 6-7 months back
maybe i should find out whether i'm currently dead or alive?

"it's possible to do zero-carb properly, like Lex"

i'm curious, is that:
~ the 1 & only cro-magnong path?
~ the absolute 0 carbing for humanity?
~ the official model for this forum?

http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/:

"This site is a resource created by members of the Raw Paleolithic Diet (RPD) community for people looking to improve their health by choosing a more historically natural approach to diet, fitness and lifestyle. Information available on the raw paleo diet is very limited, and it is our goal to explain some of the basics, dispell some of the fears, and detail some of the variations of a raw meat diet for humans ...
"The information presented here focuses on the foods that humans evolved eating in their natural state."

yes, sure, i do want to learn more: please keep it coming!

[Satya]

i'm curious, is that:
~ the 1 & only cro-magnong path?
~ the absolute 0 carbing for humanity?
~ the official model for this forum?

http://www.rawpaleo.com/:

"This site is a resource created by members of the Raw Paleolithic Diet (RPD) community for people looking to improve their health by choosing a more historically natural approach to diet, fitness and lifestyle. Information available on the raw paleo diet is very limited, and it is our goal to explain some of the basics, dispell some of the fears, and detail some of the variations of a raw meat diet for humans ...
"The information presented here focuses on the foods that humans evolved eating in their natural state."

yes, sure, i do want to learn more: please keep it coming!

Good questions.  I don't think zero carb is the model of the forum, however, many members do follow such a plan.  In terms of humanity, I don't think there is one raw paleo diet that fits all.  People in the tropics exploited more plants, during ice ages more animal foods, etc.

rawpaleo.com will be updated again soon, and I agree with you: I want to learn more too.

[TylerDurden]

The usual "Palaeo" definition, raw or otherwise, is anywhere between 35% carbs to 0% carbs(though some claim that Instinctos are Palaeos, and they eat often as much as 90%  raw plants). It's more important about what rawpalaeo is not(ie no dairy, no grains etc., no cooked-foods etc.)

[coconinoz]

to free both the mind & the body from the shackles of the current plant carb based, fear based, scarcity based culture is not for the faint of heart:
back in the day when i was transitioning, & concomitantly with the heart palps, i was experiencing other symptoms as well such as an astringent mouth, heavy legs of wool, constipation

it is likely that the cro-magnon, who had the largest & most sophisticated brain ever found on this planet, had to confront or evade various predators; nowadays 1 may have to confront or evade the educational industry, the medical industry, the neighbors, etc.

incidentally, i've heard that iodine is a mandatory requirement for ketogenesis to occur

[Sully]

What are heart palpitations? What happens? How does it feel?

[coconinoz]

while lying down in bed for sleepless hours, while walking (slowly) uphill, i'd touch my hand to my heart & say to myself:
~ wow, fabulous: my heart is enjoying a workout -- you really needed it, dear, no?
~ wow, time is part of the process: i better live through this time, i better stay within time (this is an eye opener)
~ wow, this is a real phase transition (in terms of "chaos" theory)