The BEST work-out!!!

[cliff]

that's not paleo.  no chase ( whether you are the hunter or the hunted ) lasts this long.  a chase lasts up to about a minute and in that time either the prey is caught or the predator gives up.

Classic...
http://www.youtube.com/v/9wI-9RJi0Qo?fs

Persistence hunting is a hunting technique in which hunters use a combination of running and tracking to pursue prey to the point of exhaustion.

Persistence hunting requires endurance running – running many miles for extended periods of time. Among primates, endurance running is only seen in humans, and persistence hunting is thought to have been one of the earliest forms of human hunting, having evolved 2 million years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

[proteus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

its pretty interesting - i will have to think about it.

i just hate to think that i might have been wrong and miles right LOL.

[KD]

its pretty interesting - i will have to think about it.

i just hate to think that i might have been wrong and miles right LOL.

The main reason you were wrong is because you aren't in a position to judge anyone's approach. There was almost 50 pages in the "Today's Workout' thread with next to nothing but intelligent and experienced support from people on a raw paleo diet to others with aiding their individual exercise goals. I can only think of one exception which was basically an almost identical person with the same exact mindset who was removed from the site. There is no right or wrong with diet or exercise, only different approaches that yield different body compositions and yes some different exercises that may or may not be more efficient or detrimental for those goals.

Most the suggestions you are making in this and other sub-forums you are not coming from some place of significant long term practice (never mind success) with a raw (meat) diet. This site doesn't discriminate against people who eat some cooked and processed things or even some types of regular processed and 'neolithic' foods, but in order to be taken seriously as 'paleo' the diet HAS to regularly have animal foods as part of the diet. Eating gobs of rice does not make a macrobiotic diet and eating tons of OJ does not make a Wai diet. Different diets have certain requirements making your diet 0% paleo. if you were eating raw meat regularly, you'd realize that most of your suggestions would be pretty destructive on such a diet as many of these things can really mess up the transit and metabolization and safety of raw animal foods consumption.

on all the raw diet forums I've been on in 6 years percentage raw is determined something like this:

if you are 75 % raw this means eating ALL raw (no dried foods/ powders/supplements) throughout the day and then having like a salad with some steamed salmon and/or rice with cooked vegetables or something. At the time being you are basically eating almost entirely cooked and processed foods at every meal the bulk of your calories being processed food and processed dried fruit and heated sweeteners like honey and agave. This is basically 0% raw with some fresh greens and eggs and some fresh fruit which is probably less raw food than my grandmother eats in a nursing home. One major point in eating raw foods is it brings the body closer to fasting with the foods being highly digestible and sometimes avoiding much engagement with the stomach at all. Someone eating a conventional warrior diet of cooked meats and grains is getting more out of this concept than including a bunch of dried and processed 'raw' foods in their diet with otherwise ignorance to how this stuff works.

so as i said before, please do yourself and everyone a favor and try to LEARN why it is people do certain things, before having like 8 billion answers..particular about what is 'the most paleo' type of activities and eating. If you do choose to include yourself in these things others are doing here, you will soon realize that many of the things you are saying for each (food and exercise) WON'T work anymore and many of the things you thought you knew will probably go out the window. Its the main reason people participate in such things to begin with.

[KD]

Body Building Grandma Ernestine Shepherd Bench Presses, Runs Marathons At 73

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mess-ernestine-shepherd-body-building-grandma-benches-150/story?id=10480184&page=1

[SkinnyDevil]

Body Building Grandma Ernestine Shepherd Bench Presses, Runs Marathons At 73

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mess-ernestine-shepherd-body-building-grandma-benches-150/story?id=10480184&page=1

WOW!!!!!

[Josh]

WOW!!!!!

I very much doubt if she's all natural.

[proteus]

KD you are being so vague it is almost as if you were not saying anything at all.

how do you suggest the difference between my diet and your idea of a raw paleo diet would impact training ?

[KD]

KD you are being so vague it is almost as if you were not saying anything at all.

how do you suggest the difference between my diet and your idea of a raw paleo diet would impact training ?

I'm not saying there is one paleo diet that is ideal, i'm saying that by definition a raw paleo diet includes flesh foods and is not a lacto-ovo diet filled with processed and dried food and heated sweeteners. Whether its high in flesh proteins or fats is individual. I do have my biases on that but that is an entirely different story.

You act as if your knowledge about which foods and routines work is based on what is working in the present, but in fact all of this stuff is built up from the past with likely far less than a single year doing what you are currently doing (in exercise OR diet) in terms of what yields results. It seems like you've lost both weight and strength in this period and are rationalizing that as to what is 'paleo'

it basically isn't even an issue of performance. Its mostly an issue of health first.

your diet = fungal mess within one year and is not conducive to long term health or ideal performance. Hardly any of these foods are even foods never-mind ones that remotely exist in nature. We know bodybuilders and strength trainers can have excellent results in the short term abusing all kinds of foods and dietary methods but this isn't the same as building health and muscle on a raw diet which has both challenges and advantages.

someone that is on a 100% or near raw diet, the body will actually start to break down old materials and slowly build them with new ones. You are not remotely involved in this process because you eat cooked and processed foods all day, so therefore when you suggest things like 90% swimming in a chlorinated pool, you don't understand that this wouldn't work for someone trying to build muscle or health eating a raw diet that doesn't have bodyfat or extra calories to spare. What you don't get about recommending carb binging on a ZC discussion, is the people probably were driven to a ZC diet based in some past abuse of fungally sugars and processed foods in the past.

[KD]

I very much doubt if she's all natural.

Its generally hard to tell from photos..but in this video you can see that her tissue quality is incredibly healthy, hardly indicative of dietary abuse or chemical use.

generally very few bodybuilders make it to that age..specifically because of supplementation..and not as much because of the types of workouts and such that they do.

its not like her strength and size is something that warrants anything but a healthful diet. She talks alot about faith and such here, I don't think a now 75 year old woman would be in the closet pushing pills and then say she only used vit D. Alot of the other old bags seem to be holding up well. All on Vitamin church.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCIesHhCoP0

[Josh]

What struck me was that she said she didn't do any exercise until 56. She looks young for 73, and if she was average would expect her to have degenerated more through inactivity.

Maybe she's had surgery on her face or something. I dunno I suppose anything's possible if you have good genes.

[pioneer]

I very much doubt if she's all natural.

Whether she is all natural or not really does not matter. Sure, people in their 70's can look like that and be all natural, but for most people, the inevitability of withering away to bone by that age is the case. While I am against the use of steroids, they do play their part in elderly people on primarily cooked diets and definitely help them maintain and even gain muscle mass in their last years instead of them living in a nursing home decrepit.

[Josh]

I'm not all against it..just saying. People frame it as a miracle...if it is hormones then there you go.

[proteus]

I'm not saying there is one paleo diet that is ideal, i'm saying that by definition a raw paleo diet includes flesh foods and is not a lacto-ovo diet filled with processed and dried food and heated sweeteners. Whether its high in flesh proteins or fats is individual. I do have my biases on that but that is an entirely different story.

You act as if your knowledge about which foods and routines work is based on what is working in the present, but in fact all of this stuff is built up from the past with likely far less than a single year doing what you are currently doing (in exercise OR diet) in terms of what yields results. It seems like you've lost both weight and strength in this period and are rationalizing that as to what is 'paleo'

it basically isn't even an issue of performance. Its mostly an issue of health first.

your diet = fungal mess within one year and is not conducive to long term health or ideal performance. Hardly any of these foods are even foods never-mind ones that remotely exist in nature. We know bodybuilders and strength trainers can have excellent results in the short term abusing all kinds of foods and dietary methods but this isn't the same as building health and muscle on a raw diet which has both challenges and advantages.

someone that is on a 100% or near raw diet, the body will actually start to break down old materials and slowly build them with new ones. You are not remotely involved in this process because you eat cooked and processed foods all day, so therefore when you suggest things like 90% swimming in a chlorinated pool, you don't understand that this wouldn't work for someone trying to build muscle or health eating a raw diet that doesn't have bodyfat or extra calories to spare. What you don't get about recommending carb binging on a ZC discussion, is the people probably were driven to a ZC diet based in some past abuse of fungally sugars and processed foods in the past.

interesting analysis KD, but what are these fungus you keep talking about ?  how am i eating that ?

generally very few bodybuilders make it to that age..specifically because of supplementation

you're playing with my head now lol.  the only bodybuilding supplement i use is protein.

[proteus]

by the way the reason i like swimming so much is the cold water seems to activate some sort of thermogenesis pathways which include shivering, but i think are not limited to it.  the cold also forces you to exercise to avoid freezing - your body is simply yelling at you i need to move!  this is the opposite of what happens when jogging where you overheat and the body starts to put on the brakes on your exercise ( by inducing a feeling of weakness and exhaustion ) to avoid further overheating.  you just end up burning much more fat in the pool and i attribute it mostly to cold water.

if you were to try to get the same benefit simply from exercising outdoors in winter or climbing mount everest or something you would end up freezing your fingers and ears off before your core temperature even started dropping.  what's great about water is it wicks a tremendous amount of heat from your body while at a temperature ( 80 degrees ) that poses no threat to your extremities.  in other words the water sucks heat MUCH more evenly from your surface.

because ultimately your ability to burn calories is limited by 3 factors:

1 - your ability to pump oxygen through your lungs
2 - your ability to circulate red blood cells from the lungs to the tissue burning calories
3 - your ability to dissipate the heat produced when those calories are metabolized

biking seems to be the best at meeting these 3 criteria overall because it addresses all 3.

1 - the way your torso is supported with the hands on the handlebars allows you to breathe much more freely than when jogging because you're not using shoulder belt muscles to stabilize yourself and therefore you are not putting extra pressure on your rib cage.

2 - with proper pedaling technique ( and proper pedals / shoes ) you are using i would say half of all your body's musculature ( all of legs, plus glutes ) and its a lot easier to push blood volume through that, than through a tiny muscle like a bicep.

3 - the high wind that you effectively create as you are riding at a speed can provide sufficient cooling in almost any weather.  you can feel cool on a cycle in the same weather in which jogging would feel hot.

which is why biking is my #1 exercise and swimming my #2

[KD]

Whether she is all natural or not really does not matter. Sure, people in their 70's can look like that and be all natural, but for most people, the inevitability of withering away to bone by that age is the case. While I am against the use of steroids, they do play their part in elderly people on primarily cooked diets and definitely help them maintain and even gain muscle mass in their last years instead of them living in a nursing home decrepit.

To me if you look by where her shoulders are and stuff you can see that she ain't the average 75 year old. Its not just the skin or musculature...

Its probably true that she had some good genes to build on but it seems there is quite a lot to be done through fairly healthy diet (mostly 'paleo' at least in Cordain sense) restrictive of modern foods (except some egg supplement) and positive attitude and hard work.

interesting analysis KD, but what are these fungus you keep talking about ?  how am i eating that ?

generally speaking, processed and heated grain-fed dairy
mixed with heated pure refined sugars
in indigestible combinations with nuts/seeds and plants fibers (all of which themselves are fairly indigestible)
with complete absence of healthy fat and healthy protein does not feed healthful things in the body. It happens to replicate (or be worse than) what most of the processes in SWD and vegetarian diets in terms of what makes people super ill over time.

very few of these foods are 'paleo' because they have been extracted or processed in some way. The only thing that might remotely be paleo is some of the fresh fruits, tender leaves and eggs. Although I eat these things, generally eggs arn't high on the list as to regular food for humans, and many of the vegetables were not even in existence in paleo times. As per above, eggs are (non living unless fertilized) animal food which require to be able to pass quickly through the stomach which means they don't combine with fibrous material of any kind except fresh fruit. Anyway, This is small potatoes stuff and is only worth pointing out because of your insistance on what is 'paleo'. The point is, you need to step into the ballpark to make these calls man.


Ironically I can see some eating some grass-fed or goat protein powder maybe once a day if they were on a cooked paleo diet and wern't eating alot of muscle meat. The green powders i'm sort of on the fence on...but thats mostly when eating raw meats as they expand inside and are generally only consumed with other plant fibers (I would never add it to juice for instance). All the other stuff like dates, raisins, heated agave and heated honey are probably some of the absolute worst foods someone can eat. Even the people who recommend these foods (I think finally no one recommends agave or anything other than truly cold-packed honey as these 100% heat processed) would say not to combine these with fatty foods/diet and certainly not pasteurized dairy. Just eating pasteurized dairy with fresh fruit generally is not a good idea, unless its mostly fat like cream which is somewhat less worse.


anyway you don't have to take my word for it, like I said why not participate (ask questions) in the main forums about this stuff, rather than pointing out that other people dont know by now what nutrition or fitness is useful for their situations. Sicne you seem to enjoy criticism so much, why not just outright post what you are doing in the main forums and see what other peoples perspectives are.

[KD]

you're playing with my head now lol.  the only bodybuilding supplement i use is protein.

the point is, is that its possible to do bodybuilding AND extreme distance running well into ones senior years. people can point out all the risks they want with this stuff and at the end of the day the only thing one can say is that the less natural the movement the greater likelihood one could get injured doing more natural movements - like moving boxes up the stairs. For the vast majority of people who just want a toned physique this doesn't really matter, and one can injure themselves just as easily pushing themselves in one way or the other in wither strength or endurance.

I don't do marathon type running because I desire a different physique than running or other endurance activities provide. I can use all kinds of evidence from 'paleo' experts as to why serious running is bad but at the end of the day my own goals and lack of enjoyment in running is sufficient.

as I said at the very beginning of this nonsense ...what I realized at a certain point is all these people (from bodybuilders to cross-fitters and yoga folks) just project their biases as to what is good, with very few of them having a complete closed argument as to what types of things can be beneficial or detrimental.

[proteus]

Since you seem to enjoy criticism so much, why not just outright post what you are doing in the main forums and see what other peoples perspectives are.

i know what i am doing is wrong.  i don't see the alternatives.  i know the people are going to say eat raw meat and fish and don't worry about parasites.  hehe.  well i can't not worry

also i'm not sure i am up to the task of sourcing quality meat and fish.  my protein i just order on amazon, it comes to me all by itself and there are no special storage considerations ( although i keep it in the fridge anyway, just because i can ).

[proteus]

all these people (from bodybuilders to cross-fitters and yoga folks) just project their biases as to what is good, with very few of them having a complete closed argument as to what types of things can be beneficial or detrimental.

well sure.  and yet there seems to be a clear bias, the source of which is the limited capacity of the brain to think.  

it is much easier to understand what is involved in a retarded exercise like a curl than what is involved in an exercise like running.  

most people who run don't understand what they are doing - they just do it because somebody told them once its good to lose weight and when they tried it worked so they kept doing it ever since.

few people will spend hours pondering what is the most efficient way to build abs lets say and come to the conclusion that it is by sprinting or swimming butterfly ( whether that conclusion is correct or not is another question ).

so running or swimming may not be the best for everybody but there are very few people for whom bicep curls are the best who instead are engaged in running or swimming.  on the other hand there are many people for whom swimming or running would be best but they are instead engaged in curling because they are too stupid to know anything else.

its just that everybody knows you can get big biceps by doing curls and everybody knows you can lose weight by running.  but few people know that you can shape your entire physique by sprints.  most people have no idea at all that you can use sprints to train whether it is on the track or in the pool.  99% of people run and swim monotonously at a snail pace for 40 minutes and then go home.  

this is because they can't visualize how their muscle is being activated during a sprint the same way as they can visualize it when curling.  i couldn't understand it myself until i tried sprinting for the first time and immediately tore my hamstring.  i couldn't understand how after doing heavy deadlifts every week for a long time ( going to about 95% max weight on most workouts and never running into any serious injuries ) i could tear my hamstring "just" by running ?  thanks to that unfortunate incident now i understand - but 99% of people still have no clue.

ANYWAY THE SUN IS SHINING I GOTTA RUN OUT TO BIKE ...

[SkinnyDevil]

i know what i am doing is wrong.  i don't see the alternatives.  i know the people are going to say eat raw meat and fish and don't worry about parasites.  hehe.  well i can't not worry

You lost me...what are you doing that is wrong? If you know it's wrong, why are you doing it?

Why is it you - as opposed to others - need to worry so much about parasite in particular (as opposed to the other oppositions to eating raw meats)?

[proteus]

Why is it you - as opposed to others - need to worry so much about parasite in particular (as opposed to the other oppositions to eating raw meats)?

because i don't know the other ones ?  fill me in !

[SkinnyDevil]

You hear scary things everywhere, like Alveolar Hydatid Disease/Echinococcosis and other parasite-based diseases (as well as the parasites themselves, like tapeworms), listeriosis (& other bacterial infections), E Coli, trichinosis, salmonella....

The effects of many of these on HEALTHY humans, however, is not often studied - only the effects on unhealthy humans.

Some, like tapeworms, are detrimental regardless. Others, like salmonella, we have recently learned have positive health impact on healthy people.

Is there some reason you need to concern yourself with these more than other people?

What is it you refer to when you say you know you are wrong?

[proteus]

Is there some reason you need to concern yourself with these more than other people?

What is it you refer to when you say you know you are wrong?

when i say i know i'm wrong i mean i know humans aren't supposed to eat whey protein.

medical conditions ?  i like to think that i don't have any although i do have borderline high blood pressure, some heart hypertrophy, possibly elevated kidney and liver values.  my pinky fingers get numb when i sleep - probably an issue of blood circulation.

also i get dizzy sometimes when i have a lot of caffeine and/or listen to very deep and loud bass on my stereo ( i have a 200 pound, 2400 watt 18" subwoofer ) so this may be physical damage to the vestibular apparatus from too much bass, or may also be an issue of blood pressure or both.  

but i don't have any conditions that my doctor would consider in need of treatment or even monitoring.  my blood sugar and cholesterol are normal.  although my cholesterol was off the charts bad when i was taking steroids.  all in all i did plenty of damage with steroids - most of these conditions are described are linked in one way or the other to that period of my life - but i don't do them any more.

[pioneer]

when i say i know i'm wrong i mean i know humans aren't supposed to eat whey protein.

medical conditions ?  i like to think that i don't have any although i do have borderline high blood pressure, some heart hypertrophy, possibly elevated kidney and liver values.  my pinky fingers get numb when i sleep - probably an issue of blood circulation.

also i get dizzy sometimes when i have a lot of caffeine and/or listen to very deep and loud bass on my stereo ( i have a 200 pound, 2400 watt 18" subwoofer ) so this may be physical damage to the vestibular apparatus from too much bass, or may also be an issue of blood pressure or both.  

but i don't have any conditions that my doctor would consider in need of treatment or even monitoring.  my blood sugar and cholesterol are normal.  although my cholesterol was off the charts bad when i was taking steroids.  all in all i did plenty of damage with steroids - most of these conditions are described are linked in one way or the other to that period of my life - but i don't do them any more.

Yeah, steroids are known to increase the size of the left ventricle, hence your heart hypertrophy.

[proteus]

Try doing 8 exexises to complete muscular failure in 20min and you  know what I mean. This kind of workout stimulates all 3 kinds of condition: muscular strengt, cardiovascular condition, metabolic condition. No amound of work can substitute intensity.

i think your workout is crap

no amount of intensity can substitute for volume.

is it a coincidence that both Lance Armstrong and Michael Phelps exercise 5 hours a day ?

[B.Money]

This "functional strength" thing has been a joke around most weightlifting circles. In the real world, if you have a heavy ass deadlift/squat/bench/row your "functional strength" is going to be pretty damn high. People that argue this are not very strong in the first place, obviously they also don't have any real "functional strength".

Don't know where all these people got the idea from that strong=heavy/slow/non-athletic. Probably just spread by all the weak people to grow their e-penor. Sure I can see if you have overly bulky muscle mass or something like a bodybuilder. That guy who just deadlifted 772 at 170lbs bodyweight to break Ed Coan's record is an amazing sprinter--look him up. I'm pretty damn sure he could lift a heavier rock than you functional boys wouldn't you think? How about beat him in a sprint?

I really wish we could smash this stupid functional strength thing right now... just silly and makes the board look bad to strong people. I don't post here much anymore because all the "know it all about everything" people made it difficult to find the good stuff!