The BEST work-out!!!

[Neone]

So how long do you guys spend on flexibility and stretching a day?

[miles]

SI do gauge that many people even on this site could not lift my Slankers order (60 lbs) up to my third floor apartment.

Only cripples..

So how long do you guys spend on flexibility and stretching a day?

Why stretch?

[achillezzz]

Stretch only some tight areas like hamstring calves and lower back before some exercises.
Some flexibility is good too but constantly stretching is unfortunately not paleo nor healthy either.

[pioneer]

I think a good way to look at stretching is that yes it is not paleo, but neither is squatting 500lbs or doing bench presses, therefore, unnatural exercises may require unnatural rehabilitation. I am a proponent of stretching, unfortunately in spite of convenience, I never do them.

[miles]

If some joints have naturally less ROM it's for a reason.. But if you get a natural urge to stretch that too is for a reason.

[KD]

Only cripples..

Why stretch?

alright miley you do me a favor and prove to me you arn't the worst and least knowledgeable poster on this site and actually prove what you imply here that you are capable of say: 50 russian step ups with 60 lbs in dumbbells. I'm sure i'll get some lame excuse on a video but if you can go do this and report back honestly i'll reconsider my original statement which is that for me lifting this box is incredibly arduous so I assume its more so or impossible for the vast majority of people who can't deadlift, squat, or otherwise just lift large amounts of weight.

As for stretching, stretching and warmup is not just a safety and precautionary process. It is that and tons of people will swear sooner or later you will injure yourself if you are not stretching prior to AND after workouts. But the other thing is stretching will make your workouts deeper, more effective, and will probably build muscle faster. I've depended heavily on isometric stretching for muscle growth and its also a great way to detoxify and cleanse matter form your tissues which are constantly under static activity.

There is thousands of years of technology within yoga (basically stretches only) that some people can use pretty much as a complete system for both muscle growth and well being successfully..even independent of diet. The only gripe with the yoga people is actually it will not reset certain mobilities as easily as with weighted exercises ironically. For instance i'm one of the more flexible people at my cf gym in some ways and probably one of the least flexible in shoulders. I can hardly do a decent overhead squat with a 45lb bar without my shoulders feeling like they are going to crumble. So in that sense assuming doing those kinds of exercises will promote mobility...this trumps yoga which trumps natural movement which provides no real system for assessing and rigorous working over problems which is essentially what all self improvement is. Its this mindset (as with attitudes towards diet and healing) that will never actually tackle the problems and issues at hand but results in just spinning in circles with the same crappy ideology.

[proteus]

You dont think squats and deads are functional???

i prefer deadlift to squat and i prefer power clean to deadlift.

i feel the deadlift is too static, too symmetrical.  real world stress ( running away from a tiger ) is more dynamic, more asymmetric and an exercise like a power clean better approximates that.  of course an actual sprint approximates it best.

you can develop more power with deadlifts that can be used in the real world because in the real world your power will be limited by various stabilizing muscles which you fail to train adequately with such a static symmetrical exercise.  so actually you are just building dead weight that will impede rather than improve your real world performance.

if you take a well designed sports car like Honda S2000 for example and replace its 2 liter engine with a huge 8 liter engine from a pickup truck it will become SLOWER not faster around the track.  because the chain is only as strong as the weakest link.  the car won't be able to put the extra power down to the pavement and all you will have accomplished is disturb the balance of its weight distribution.

once again a deadlift is an exercise much better than what most people do in the gym, so it isn't a "bad" exercise.  and yet it is a POWERLIFTING exercise and i feel powerlifting on the whole is too ... square.

i think deadlift AS AN EXERCISE can be a part of even the best training regimen.  just as long as you treat it as an EXERCISE and not as a sport in itself.  i don't have anything against doing deadlifts once in a while.  it's when you begin to set your goals in terms of how much you want to deadlift that you are making a mistake. 

well, that's my opinion.

[proteus]

If you were climbing a mountain you're be doing pull-ups, not chin ups.

i use the terms interchangeably.  i use parallel grip myself, like so:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles4ddbig.jpg

[proteus]

This premise is why I agree with KD, as the real goal in working out is getting the most benefit in the least amount time

no the real goal should be doing the least permanent damage to your body.  because benefit is subjective but damage is not.

[proteus]

as far as stretching what i do is PRACTICE the movement before executing it.

a lot of time injury occurs due to nerve misfire so to speak - when you activate the wrong motor units or in the wrong sequence.  if its been a week since u last performed the exercise your brain will not coordinate the movement perfectly from the first try. 

i usually start with the naked bar and just practice the form for one set.  then i put on very light weight and do one more practice set.  i keep increasing the weight gradually so it takes me about 3 or 4 sets to get to the working weight.  if i start to feel any pain i will spend a few extra sets on the same weight without increasing it - and if the pain isn't going away i will abort the exercise for the day.

[cliff]

How is stretching not paleo???  Every other animal stretches and I can only assume wild humans stretch.

I try to stretch on a daily basis usually in the evening for about 10-15 mins

[Neone]

Animals stretch, and watching animals for your ideas and then improving on them is about as paleo as it gets.

Another thing to think about is they say you cant be strong without being supple. The hard and soft?
I do a lot of 'power yoga' and I take doing that over weights any day of the week.
Now I also do a lot more MMA/Grappling stuff and not as much carrying rocks up stairs, But during grappling I dont find myself having trouble matching strength during grappling with guys who are 30lbs heavier than i am. But what I can do is use my strength in poses that other guys would not even be able to get into, which puts me at a huge advantage.
Mabye they have stronger specialized muscles from lifting stuff, where as i am holding my body weight and rolling through a whole range of motions with it which gives a more rounded conditioning, so a 'real world' application of my strength trumps their ability, but i wont be able to pump as much weight with just my biceps.

I lose my train of thought.. I think i was trying to say something like  "If you want to lift weights your body will turn itself into a specialized tool that wouldn't transpose well over to say, swimming. A swimmers body will develop for the tasks its going to do. Then you could go for a jack of all trades kind of body but you're not going to perform them as good as the guy who'se specialized for it, but you can do pretty well at a larger range of stuff.

tldr; ah... There is no 'best', just the best for your particular application of your body.  Kind of like how they say zero carb will give you more stamina, and carbs give you more explosive energy (i dont know if i believe this but whatever), so you cant have everything?

[KD]

well, that's my opinion.

ok, well at least here you are now acknowledging what is in fact just your opinion.

what should be made more clear however, is you are working backwards with this stuff. you already conceivably have muscle built up (from many of the programs you criticize), have admitted to being overweight and are not on any raw and cleansing diet, therefore you are not in the position most people are in here which is the desire to build muscle through a raw diet, which is already slightly different than on many other programs. Doing many of the things you are talking about is basically just something that applies to you and bringing to whatever balance you now see as right. My prediction is this will change pretty dramatically if you actually cut out all the supplements and refined foods and are reliant on building your body back naturally, which ain't easy and would be prety inhibited by many of the things you are talking about.

As I said, you are leaving out massive gaps in terms of criticizing of safety and applicability. Many extreme lifters probably have a problematic mindset and SOME of these people tear their pectorals and other such things. Virtually everyone is damaged from long term chlorine exposure and running (knee issues, joint paint, arthritis etc...). There is a difference between being informative on which types of exercises can be dangerous. (however, the idea that a power clean is less dangerous that a deadlift or a bench press is just ridiculous) and attacking things due to their potential for being dangerous.

But the real important point is that people just plain have different goals. if one's goal is in fact to put on muscle on an otherwise non-existent frame, and they are eating a raw paleo centered diet, they arn't going to do this very efficiently through running, swiming and other exercises. If people choose to do those because they are fun and happy with the results that they DO give, then that is a completely different argument as to which is 'better' or healthier.

[KD]

Animals stretch, and watching animals for your ideas and then improving on them is about as paleo as it gets.

Another thing to think about is they say you cant be strong without being supple. The hard and soft?
I do a lot of 'power yoga' and I take doing that over weights any day of the week.
Now I also do a lot more MMA/Grappling stuff and not as much carrying rocks up stairs, But during grappling I dont find myself having trouble matching strength during grappling with guys who are 30lbs heavier than i am. But what I can do is use my strength in poses that other guys would not even be able to get into, which puts me at a huge advantage.
Mabye they have stronger specialized muscles from lifting stuff, where as i am holding my body weight and rolling through a whole range of motions with it which gives a more rounded conditioning, so a 'real world' application of my strength trumps their ability, but i wont be able to pump as much weight with just my biceps.

I lose my train of thought.. I think i was trying to say something like  "If you want to lift weights your body will turn itself into a specialized tool that wouldn't transpose well over to say, swimming. A swimmers body will develop for the tasks its going to do. Then you could go for a jack of all trades kind of body but you're not going to perform them as good as the guy who'se specialized for it, but you can do pretty well at a larger range of stuff.

tldr; ah... There is no 'best', just the best for your particular application of your body.  Kind of like how they say zero carb will give you more stamina, and carbs give you more explosive energy (i dont know if i believe this but whatever), so you cant have everything?

Well, whose to say that these guys are serious strength trainers...? Your point is right though. If one actually HAS functional strength, particularly the super specifics (like bicep strength) are absolutely unimportant. but likely you get the traditional gym rat and you put them in a crossfit type situation and they will buckle pretty quick too, but so might alot of the MMA guys. One of the first things that I pointed out is I no longer agree with any of these philosophies as being superior as it all depends on ones goals. AFAIC some gym rat person that looks good and enjoys what they are doing is a perfectly legitimate way to spend their time. If they want to argue that their routine is better, I have to actually size up their results before trying to pick apart what they are doing. anything else is just arguing conceptual talking points.

my experience with a raw ketogenic diet is I have increased both endurance and short spurt type energy. In a way this manifests similar to the unlimited well of energy people describe, but generally this is only in situations that I 'need' it, like burning through a workout at crossfit. Overall I tend to have a steady energy that I would describe as slightly on the low side, kind of subdued.

[achillezzz]

KD how low carb increased your endurance?

For me this kind of diet didn't really work I almost collapse on a basketball court after few sprints.
When I add 200 grams of healthy carbs fruits soaked oats sweet potatoes my performance increase.

Carbs improve explosiveness and endurance when consumed in normal ammounts because of glycogen stores in muscle its already proven..

[KD]

KD how low carb increased your endurance?

For me this kind of diet didn't really work I almost collapse on a basketball court after few sprints.
When I add 200 grams of healthy carbs fruits soaked oats sweet potatoes my performance increase.

Carbs improve explosiveness and endurance when consumed in normal ammounts because of glycogen stores in muscle its already proven..

I believe what neone was saying was that alot of the ZCers will claim that - contrary to common knowledge - that without any carbs the body actually will perform extremely well in endurance type situations (far better than any carb loading), but that it won't perform as well in short burst type exercise or in building serious muscle mass. Again..this is THEIR claim.

I really don't know what the long term solution is for best health or even the the best program for lifting in the short term. I experiment with a variety of things but overall I have no problem with short term energy or building muscle eating next to no carbs. most of the carbs I eat are from animal sources like organs and eggs and vegetables like herbs and mushrooms. I'll eat some fruit when I got to the market and get whatever I want which is usually 1-2 pieces of fruit 1-2 times a week.

So while I don't know if any of this is even healthy, I can say that if one is serious about using fat efficiently for energy ts certainly a commitment that might require an entire year or more of shitty symptoms... including massive chronic fatigue and virtually no energy for exercise. just my experience.

[pioneer]

I believe what neone was saying was that alot of the ZCers will claim that - contrary to common knowledge - that without any carbs the body actually will perform extremely well in endurance type situations (far better than any carb loading), but that it won't perform as well in short burst type exercise or in building serious muscle mass. Again..this is THEIR claim.

I really don't know what the long term solution is for best health or even the the best program for lifting in the short term. I experiment with a variety of things but overall I have no problem with short term energy or building muscle eating next to no carbs. most of the carbs I eat are from animal sources like organs and eggs and vegetables like herbs and mushrooms. I'll eat some fruit when I got to the market and get whatever I want which is usually 1-2 pieces of fruit 1-2 times a week.

So while I don't know if any of this is even healthy, I can say that if one is serious about using fat efficiently for energy ts certainly a commitment that might require an entire year or more of shitty symptoms... including massive chronic fatigue and virtually no energy for exercise. just my experience.

Very true KD, but then there are people like me who run on fat fuel. I have the absolute shittiest workouts when running on carbohydrates. My body loses energy really fast and I get extremely sluggish before I even get to the gym. Does not matter the carb source whether it be from fruit or not, although some low glycemic carbs such as vegetables will do. Either way, as long as I have a good amount of fat 1-2hrs before my workout, it is the best workout ever. I also am ketogenic, eating nothing but meat and maybe a fruit here and there like once or twice a week. I've been keto for months and have not had a single problem as of yet. If anything I have more energy, or it may be a placebo thing due to the fact that high fat clears my skin and I am more confident out in public. Directly or indirectly, high fat and low to zero carb works wonders for me. But then again, I will say I am eating a good amount of protein, which has the potential to convert 57% of aminos into glucose so the little carbs I am running on are from protein.

[HIT_it_RAW]

I did have major issue's with short intensive movement (30 min full body HIT-workout) when on low carb. On my strenght training days, once a week, I eat loads of grapes or pineapple with raw milk for 5-1 hours before my workout. Than fast 1 hour than hit the weights. This way I get just enough carbs to be able to perform but use most of them up in my workout.

No problem with endurance type training perhaps even better on LC

[SkinnyDevil]

.... have admitted to being overweight and are not on any raw and cleansing diet...

What???

You're saying your boy is not raw, semi-raw, paleo, quasi-paleo, and is fat? I'm finding it a tad hard to believe that a fat SAD dude is giving advice on diet and exercise on a raw paleo forum. Perhaps he was speaking in the past tense?

I must have missed that post(s).

[proteus]

What???

You're saying your boy is not raw, semi-raw, paleo, quasi-paleo, and is fat? I'm finding it a tad hard to believe that a fat SAD dude is giving advice on diet and exercise on a raw paleo forum. Perhaps he was speaking in the past tense?

I must have missed that post(s).

just for you skinny i went to the bathroom and took a pic of myself 5 minutes ago ...

i am 175 lbs @ 5'10" and 29 years old.

[SkinnyDevil]

just for you skinny i went to the bathroom and took a pic of myself 5 minutes ago ...

i am 175 lbs @ 5'10" and 29 years old.

Looking buff - good on ya.

I told you that had to be a misunderstanding, KD. He was (I assume) speaking in the past tense.

So, Proteus, care to clear up any other misconceptions? Seems KD was/is under the impression you are not paleo or raw, either. So how much of your caloric intake is raw and what's your dietary concept of "paleo" (and how closely do you adhere to that concept)?

[proteus]

my typical meal right now is half a banana, a pair of dates, three whole eggs, a scoop of hemp seeds, a scoop of casein and two scoops of whey protein all tossed in a food processor and blended into a pudding.  i eat this 3 times a day or so and these are my main meals.  in between the meals i will grab an apple or a piece of dark chocolate.  

this is my "cheating" diet so to speak - i just eat it because it tastes so good.  but if i can get back on track diet wise i will be drinking green smoothies.  my green smoothie would look something like 150 grams spinach, a 200 gram apple, a scoop of hemp seeds, one whole egg, one scoop whey protein, one scoop egg white protein, one scoop casein.

i don't eat raw flesh  but i am aiming for 100% raw if you consider whey protein "raw" ...

i don't eat anything out of grains ... but my protein mostly comes from milk ( although i don't use any other milk products except protein ).  so i am about 50% paleo.

[KD]

woah, SD I never said fat or SAD diet. I said working backwards from having muscle and other bodyweight built up on other programs, which is entirely differnt than building muscle (particularly from having 0 muscle ) via a raw diet. Its my opinion and years of observation that even if one has a particularly healthy diet that if they move to an actual raw diet free of extraneous compounds that they'll probably lose a great deal of their bodyweight and a degree of muscle. This is particularly true for ZC and VLC diets. Anway, as you probably have seen yourself on raw vegan forums..theres no shortage of people transitioning diets (having lots of bodyweight to burn) who will appear to have a stable muscular build 6 months or so into such a diet, but this has nothing to do with 'building muscle' on such programs. This phenomena exists whether a diet is vegan, veg, or 'paleo'.

There was mention of coming from overweight as in past tense, not that this was the advice of someone out of shape.  I'm suggesting the opposite actually. and that this type of getting in shape is subjective due to where people are coming from. People eating a raw paleo/primal type diet, generally can't take those kind of liberties because they are coming from an entirely different paradigm..basically what I said before.

Very true KD, but then there are people like me who run on fat fuel. I have the absolute shittiest workouts when running on carbohydrates. My body loses energy really fast and I get extremely sluggish before I even get to the gym. Does not matter the carb source whether it be from fruit or not, although some low glycemic carbs such as vegetables will do. Either way, as long as I have a good amount of fat 1-2hrs before my workout, it is the best workout ever. I also am ketogenic, eating nothing but meat and maybe a fruit here and there like once or twice a week. I've been keto for months and have not had a single problem as of yet. If anything I have more energy, or it may be a placebo thing due to the fact that high fat clears my skin and I am more confident out in public. Directly or indirectly, high fat and low to zero carb works wonders for me. But then again, I will say I am eating a good amount of protein, which has the potential to convert 57% of aminos into glucose so the little carbs I am running on are from protein.

yeah there is deffinetly no rules apparently with this stuff. I tend to believe that if we are talking about ideals..its probably true that at least some manner of carb cycling will be the absolute best for performance. For me it doesn't seem to be necessary for a good deal of competitive energy and some fairly freakish muscle 'growth' in terms of strength but more or less stay the same in terms of size. I do think as with some of the other discussions that that if someone wanted massive growth in muscle size and possibly performance that they would be better served by some non raw and probably non paleo things to be determined.

btw...In case it was confusing, I wasn't suggesting people had to go through a year of agony..just that anyone who said they have this or that symptom or hit to their performance prior to AT LEAST one year I wouldn't take very seriously as a criticism.

[proteus]

Ran 5 miles

that's not paleo.  no chase ( whether you are the hunter or the hunted ) lasts this long.  a chase lasts up to about a minute and in that time either the prey is caught or the predator gives up.

jogging intensity is too high to approximate walking ( of which paleos did a lot ) which means you are going to be overtraining at best and working on an injury most likely if you want to substitute walking by jogging.

on the other hand jogging intensity is too low to approximate a chase, so you will not really be adequately hitting any of the muscles required for a sprint either.

of course you can't run 5 miles without touching your heels - i can't either.  your wrong workout is what forces you to adopt wrong technique.

i use biking instead of walking.  biking intensity is roughly halfway between walking and jogging.  i simply have no time to walk for 5 hours like a real caveman but i can bike for 2.

[proteus]

in fact i have a suggestion for miles and the rest of you who do running.  i just invented this and i want you to try it - hunt sprints !

find a partner of roughly similar sprinting ability as you.  give him some distance ( say 100 feet ) head and then pretend he is the prey and you are trying to eat him - sprint after him.  within a short time ( less than a minute ) it will become obvious whether you are going to catch him or not.  if yes - catch him.  if not - give up.

if you caught him very easily give him more head ( say 150 feet ) next time.  if you almost caught him give him less head next time ( say 50 feet ).  if he was faster than you reverse roles.

the point of this exercise is it will teach you what is the proper intensity and duration of a real-life sprint.  it is almost certainly going to be longer than a 100 meter dash and almost certainly going to be shorter than any distance you may be jogging.

another key element of this is that your actual speed will vary throughout the sprint as you are attempting to develop a winning strategy.  modern running events are artificial in that the distance you are to run is known form the beginning and the entire length is run at the same pace.  in a real hunt the pace changes all the time.