Author Topic: Best form of paleo for bowel health?  (Read 34031 times)

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Offline alycia

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Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« on: April 04, 2011, 10:04:52 am »
HI, I am new girl here and rather confused on what form of paleo i need to try in order to improve my bowel health?  I've been raw for 5 years now, mainly vegetarian with a little raw meat here and there.  I am thinking fiber may not be the best thing in the world for "proper" colon health anymore?  

which Paleo plan has everyone found to work best to make bathroom time easy and quick?  
What foods are easiest to pass or get fully absorbed by the body so you don't need to have many BM's?  

I was thinking that maybe a diet high or exclusively of foods that most if not all is absorbed by the body, is that even possible?  
I think most if not all meat and fats are absorbed right?  and fruits too?  but all veggies have fiber that is not digested so that may put strain on the colon?  Just my assumptions so if i am wrong or you have any insight on this - I really want to know :-)

I have a medical condition called "tortured redundant colon" meaning i have many twists/knots in my colon that it takes a long time to complete a bowel movement which leads to constipation, straining, hemorrhoids etc...  

insight on diet plans?

thank you!!
Aly


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 11:18:11 am »
I have redundant colon too, though it wasn't termed tortured. So far I have found a diet somewhat similar to the one Aajonus Vonderplanitz recommends to be the best for my bowel health, though constipation is still a problem for me. Foods that seem to help or at least not contribute as much to the constipation as other foods tend to be soft, easily digestible and/or fatty, such as raw eggs, marrow, avocados, liver, raw fermented honey and berries. To help with the constipation without eating more honey or fruit than I can handle and to keep my calories up (as I'm prone to underweight) and to I hope not worsen a small dental cary I've had since 2008 (which I'm hoping will remineralize with secondary dentin), I have also added some cooked foods not sanctioned here: tallow and lard (which I find more easily digestible than raw suet and pork leaf fat, though the rendered versions don't give me as good a feeling of well being), and boiled (and sometimes raw soaked) sweet potatoes. Meat tends to contribute to my constipation, even ground beef. It's a difficult balancing act, because other than the constipation, my health fares best overall when I eat plenty of meat and very little carbs. I think fish contributes less to the constipation than beef, but it's difficult to say.

I tried other suggestions made here, but they didn't work for me, though that doesn't mean they wouldn't for you. I take senna tea when the constipation gets bad. I tried cassia fistula fruit, which also contains sennosides, but found that even a single disc of it was too harsh for me after experimenting with it for a while, and I discarded what was left (which was annoying, because I can only purchase it from foreign countries and it's quite expensive, especially when including the shipping cost).

I'm still experimenting. I'd like to get to the point where I rarely to never need to take senna tea, as there are risks of side effects with long term use of foods containing sennosides and these foods are legumes (generally not considered Paleo because of their relatively high antinutrient content--though some legumes are edible raw and one--wild African groundnuts--may even have been consumed by Australopithecines) and they don't taste good to me--not even the first sip or bite.

For many years I tried the more conventional approaches of eating whole grains, plenty of veggies (many of which were cooked), beans and fruits and taking fiber supplements and it didn't help. For many years the physicians and nutritionist told me to eat more and more fiber, but it only made my health worse. A prescription product (polyethylene glycol) I was prescribed was particularly harmful, giving me terrible toe and foot cramps which were only resolved by potassium supplements (potassium-rich foods were not enough), and it worked less and less with the constipation over time. I also tried most of the recommended remedies at http://www.helpforibs.com and similar resources, including buying an IBS-therapy audio CD from that site (I had IBS-C with D, now it's more like basic chronic constipation, which is an improvement at least that occurred after I adopted a very low carb Paleo diet). I also tried other mind-body approaches like Dr. John Sarno's therapies for TMS, meditation, yoga, acupuncture, exercise, you-name-it.

If you find anything that helps you, please let us know.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:41:30 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 01:14:20 pm »
It is true that eating raw animal foods will (in most cases) lead to smaller, less frequent bowel-movements.  At least, that is my own experience - unfortunately my own RZC(raw-zero-carb) experience was not successful in the long-term as I seem to need some raw carbs as well.

PP and Lex have mentioned getting problems with constipation, but I think Lex solved it by drinking lots more water. Lex also mentioned having initial issues- I think(?) he said that, because of his past vegan diet, his colon was too large, so that he, at first, took much longer to pass stools through his colon as they were much smaller than before, but that, over time, his colon shrank to a more normal size for an RZC diet, until things were fine.


I would avoid lard and tallow, IMO. PP is an exception, most others seem to find them less digestible, not more. My own experience, for example, is that any cooked animal food, fats especially, makes my stools much larger, and may cause constipation.
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Offline miles

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 10:06:05 pm »
I hope not worsen a small dental cary I've had since 2008 (which I'm hoping will remineralize with secondary dentin),

How did you get the cary?
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 11:42:32 pm »
Thank you guys, this does help me get a better idea. 

Paleo Phil - I will check out that site :-) Thank you!
So if I get this right, it's the "softness" of the food (even cooked veg?) and easy "digestibility/food combing" that is key on AV's diet to have a regularity?

 Also i got the idea it's really about fat more so than protein and fruits for reguarlity?    I know he is not a proponent of veg unless juiced ( i have his recipe book  ;)).

How about raw dairy, like cheese?  I always thought it constipated me but maybe putting it on raw veggies was not the best way to eat it.

Just some info that may be helpful -
Phil - After using cascara sengrada in the past (that gave me my first regular BM's EVER) i developed "melanosis Coli"  that is also when i  was diagnosed with "Torturous Redundant Colon" in that colonscopy.  I am just sharing that with you b/c the doctor warned me that senna will do the same thing to the colon :(
What i have found to be very helpful, in a way to avoid laxatives, was to take Vitamin C or Cal/Mag.   

I also read a book online called "Fiber Menace"
http://www.fibermenace.com/fibermenace/about_fm.html
and it really got me to lower fiber foods (even though they gave me better BM's  :()
In that book he notes how 1 pound of beef equals to 5 grams of stool, that's refreshing b/c i would think after consuming that weight of food you would have more waste product but apparently it all gets absorbed.  Most stool should be bacteria anyways from what i read, so i have been making kefir water and coconut kefir (not sure if it helps though ???).


 
   

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 05:56:09 am »
How did you get the cary?
2008 was back when I was rather ill and eating a cooked Paleo diet, with much more carbs, including cooked carbs like winter squashes and tubers, and dried fruits. I thought I got the cary recently, but my former dentist wrote me a recap in which he said that he first spotted it in 2008. I guess I forgot. I'm actually amazed that it hasn't become big and painful since then. Does anyone know how long it normally takes before a cary becomes painful?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 06:09:25 am »
Thank you guys, this does help me get a better idea.  

Paleo Phil - I will check out that site :-) Thank you!
You're welcome. None of the tips at that site worked for me, except eliminating wheat and dairy which I had already done, and I found the subliminal audio CD to be mostly a waste of money, though it was relaxing, but maybe you'll find something useful for you there.

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So if I get this right, it's the "softness" of the food (even cooked veg?) and easy "digestibility/food combing" that is key on AV's diet to have a regularity?
That's my guess. Hasn't been a total cure for me, though--but then I don't eat precisely as he recommends. He doesn't have stomach acid, so he needs to eat only easily-digested foods. I figure that foods that are easier to digest are also probably easier to poop out. ;D

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Also i got the idea it's really about fat more so than protein and fruits for reguarlity?    I know he is not a proponent of veg unless juiced ( i have his recipe book  ;)).
Yup, that's my guess too.

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How about raw dairy, like cheese?  I always thought it constipated me but maybe putting it on raw veggies was not the best way to eat it.
I would think that any dairy products that contain lots of calcium might constipate, and in the past they did seem to add mildly to my constipation problem. Presumably the fattier dairy products like butter would be less of a problem.

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Phil - After using cascara sengrada in the past (that gave me my first regular BM's EVER) i developed "melanosis Coli"  that is also when i  was diagnosed with "Torturous Redundant Colon" in that colonscopy.  I am just sharing that with you b/c the doctor warned me that senna will do the same thing to the colon :(
I had read that before, but everything I read said that it is totally benign and resolves after one stops ingesting foods and products that contain sennosides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanosis_coli#Prognosis). Did your physician say otherwise? I do wonder about it, because so many things are claimed to be benign that later turn out to be symptoms of harm.
 
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What i have found to be very helpful, in a way to avoid laxatives, was to take Vitamin C or Cal/Mag.
I tried vitamin C. It was a disaster for me. Cal/Mag combos tend to have twice as much Cal as Mag and they tend to constipate me.

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I also read a book online called "Fiber Menace"
I've seen a video by the Fiber Menace guy.

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Most stool should be bacteria anyways from what i read, so i have been making kefir water and coconut kefir (not sure if it helps though ???).
I haven't tried kefir yet, though I've tried various brands of yogurt and various expensive probiotics that are advertised as the best in the world. All with no effect. Several people kept telling me that flaxseed oil would help and I took it for years with no benefit. They wouldn't believe me, so I drank a 10 oz glass of the stuff to demonstrate that there was zero effect for me. One fellow was shocked and amazed. He didn't think anyone could do that without getting bad diarrhea. LOL

This topic reminds me that I haven't been eating many raw eggs lately. One of the things that does seem to help me.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 06:30:55 am »
Paleo Phil -
About the cavy - that means cavity right?  Sorry i am new to this forum so don't know lingo here at all -\
I have had issues in the mouth, mainly from grinding my teeth at night but one source that has really really helped me with everything dealing with the mouth is the book "Cure Tooth Decay"
Highly recommend that book for anyone who has teeth issues!  He also has a website that is very helpful:
http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Kudos' to you to have a cavity for that long without pain!  According to that book it would be b/c of this diet you do, it actually is the diet he recommends for tooth health (Weston A Price or AV's). 
When i had a cavity that started to hurt I did "oil Pulling" really helped!
He walks you thru how to heal cavities wihtout getting drilled and filled  ;D

ABout the senna  - yes he did say 6 months to 1 year after i am completely off it my villa will be healthy again. It's been several years since i stopped it and I have done colonics to strengthen those muscles again and i think it helped. 

The probiotic i did notice help me is "New Chapter's - colon probiotic" 

Can I ask a question - will high fat make me fat?  That will up my calories a LOT  and being a girl who once was overweight on more fats than i eat now i am hessitant to take that route  ???


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 06:38:06 am »
PP and Lex have mentioned getting problems with constipation,
I've had a lifetime problem with it--as far back as I can remember. I think Lex's problem was a temporary issue that resolved once he adapted to his all-meat/fat/organs diet.

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but I think Lex solved it by drinking lots more water. Lex also mentioned having initial issues- I think(?) he said that, because of his past vegan diet, his colon was too large,
Yeah, that also sounds like redundant colon and/or stretched colon walls. I think I have both, and my colon does seem tighter now based on the fact that my near-hernia retracted and I've developed muscle definition in my lower abdomen, and based on the size and shape of my stools and the improved signals I get (at its worst years ago, I had almost no signals to go at all and had to remember to try going).

I try to drink lots of water, but it doesn't help much, oddly enough. Some of my best bowels were when I was drinking very little fluid of any sort. I have no explanation for it other than the best bowels appear to occur in the early periods of a dietary change, such as when I first went Paleo, when I first went ZC and when I first softened my diet. It seems to give a sort of temporary relief to my body, then it's like the body gradually adapts and the constipation sets in again. I've been trying to mix things up during the week, eating one way one day and another very different way another day, but that hasn't produced any noticeable effect.

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so that he, at first, took much longer to pass stools through his colon as they were much smaller than before, but that, over time, his colon shrank to a more normal size for an RZC diet, until things were fine.
I was hoping that was going to be the case for me too, and I initially had good bowel improvements on my brief RZC experiment, but then it gradually started worsening again. I gradually added more fruits and veg, in part to see if that would help as well as because I would prefer to eat some plant foods for variety and insurance (such as from potential benefits from hormesis, avoidance of nutrient deficiencies, etc.), until I was eating about the ratio that you eat, but the constipation continued to worsen until I developed a hemorrhoid flare. At that point I decided to get really serious about it and figured that if what goes in me is soft and fatty, it's less likely to harden inside me and thus less likely to cause constipation or hemorrhoidal pain. Because of my extra-long redundant colon, it takes longer for food to go through me and there is more time for water to be sucked out of it in the colon and harden. This has produced some improvement and the hemorrhoidal flareup did subside, but I still have a ways to go.

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I would avoid lard and tallow, IMO. PP is an exception, most others seem to find them less digestible, not more. My own experience, for example, is that any cooked animal food, fats especially, makes my stools much larger, and may cause constipation.
That's surprising, I hadn't heard of tallow or lard causing constipation before. I have heard of people having difficulty digesting raw suet, with much of it coming out the other end. I notice less visible fat in my stools when I eat tallow and lard than when I eat raw suet, so I figured it was more digestible in the sense of not just passing through, which would make sense because the tough connective tissue is rendered out of it. However, if I heat tallow too high or too long it does give me stomach burps, which is a different issue.


>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 06:42:43 am »
...one source that has really really helped me with everything dealing with the mouth is the book "Cure Tooth Decay"
Highly recommend that book for anyone who has teeth issues!  He also has a website that is very helpful:
http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Yes, thanks--I bought the book and have gotten helpful answers from him at his website.

Quote
Kudos' to you to have a cavity for that long without pain!  According to that book it would be b/c of this diet you do, it actually is the diet he recommends for tooth health (Weston A Price or AV's).
Yes, I have incorporated some of his tips in my diet and dental care routine and I switched to a holistic dentist that was listed on a website he recommended.

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When i had a cavity that started to hurt I did "oil Pulling" really helped!
Thanks for that reminder. I don't digest coconut oil well, but I could try the oil pulling, which gets spit out anyway, right? I have found that chewing raw suet helps me too.

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ABout the senna  - yes he did say 6 months to 1 year after i am completely off it my villa will be healthy again. It's been several years since i stopped it and I have done colonics to strengthen those muscles again and i think it helped.
Did he say how the coloration supposedly hurts the villi?

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The probiotic i did notice help me is "New Chapter's - colon probiotic"
Yeah, I've tried that one, thanks. I used to work at a store that sold it.

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Can I ask a question - will high fat make me fat?  That will up my calories a LOT  and being a girl who once was overweight on more fats than i eat now i am hessitant to take that route  ???
Can I answer that with a question? Did you get that idea from a specific source that I could refute for you (in other words, if the fat is raw, the answer is likely no--although Lex Rooker did add some body fat when he was eating a very high % of fat and very high caloric intake--but I don't know if any of it was pemmican or rendered fat)?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 10:25:20 am »
Wow, that is great you already have many of  the resources i know of working for you and some that don't so much, I'm sorry.  At least you have the diet that works, that's the main thing.

I'm bummed that N.C. probiotic did not work for you, it was the best i have used thus far but i know there are much better ones available somewhere, just not sure what they are yet.  

About the villi -it was blackened and according to the doctor it was directly related to the stimulant laxative. having damaged the villi also lead to malabsorption of nutrients in the intestines.  All around not good and not worth being regular if it was killing the villi and not absorbing the nutrients from the food and supplements i put so much into.  

Yes i do sometimes have problems with vit. C - gives you the runs if you have too much.  Cal/Mag -  I always take more magnesium than calcium to prevent constipation effects of calcium.  If that was all i needed to do i would not be searching for more info on this  -\
 
Fats - raw vegan world and my own experience (but I was also eating cooked meats on my low carb/high fat days)  I have never cut out veggies to the degree many do here so this is something i am working on.  But if it will help with the bowels I will cut out veg really soon  :D

Please keep me posted on any thing that works for you, you seem to be way ahead of me on making headway in this department!!

Alycia

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 11:13:59 am »
About the villi -it was blackened and according to the doctor it was directly related to the stimulant laxative.
Yes, we've already established that much, but I've searched this before and I've never found anything that suggested that the coloring of the colon by sennosides was anything but benign. That doesn't guarantee that it is benign, of course, but if there is already some known real damage that it causes, I'd like to know about it. In what way did your physician claim that this coloring damaged the villi? Are you sure he didn't also say that the villi were flattened or something like that, which definitely has been connected to gliadin and other factors that can spark autoimmunity, rather than sennosides? Flattened villi have been connected to malabsorption, but senna-discoloration has not, AFAIK.

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Yes i do sometimes have problems with vit. C - gives you the runs if you have too much.
My problem was that ascorbic acid would give me bad stomach upset long before it loosened the stool at all. The only way I could take enough to loosen the bowels was to take capsules, and then the effect was extremely harsh. It went quickly from no effect at all to horrendous. Not something I wish to risk again. I've heard that there's another form of vitamin C that's less harsh, but I'm a bit gun shy at this point. ;D

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Cal/Mag -  I always take more magnesium than calcium to prevent constipation effects of calcium.  If that was all i needed to do i would not be searching for more info on this  -\
Yup, same here. I found that to loosen the bowels I again needed to take so much Mg that it could easily tilt into an overdose with violent diarrhea, flushing, etc. So I do take some Mg, but only as part of a larger overall program, and if I occasionally consume any of Dr. Ron's natural bone meal, I take more Mg with that to minimize the risk of worsened constipation. One bright side of this is that it only tends to take a calcium supplement or two to resolve diarrhea for me, and another bright side is I haven't had diarrhea recently other than that caused by cassia fistula, whereas I used to get diarrhea every now and then in between the constipation (possibly at times as the body's response to a blockage, to expel it) and at times I would have both at the same time (that may sound impossible but others have reported the same thing, and I recall reading about it in some authoritative sources, I again suspect it can occur when constipated feces have been in the colon too long and/or contain something particularly inflammatory to the colon, and the body then reacts by producing lots of mucus and/or water and expelling it the mess with sudden spasmodic muscle contractions).
 
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Fats - raw vegan world and my own experience (but I was also eating cooked meats on my low carb/high fat days)
Ah, that explains it. There is so much falsehood promoted in the raw vegan world, that to address it all would require several volumes. I'm also a member at Giveittomeraw and am also familiar with the 30BAD forum via GITMR and some past trolling that some 30BAD members did of this forum. It's very sad to see quite a few people destroying their health while claiming to be in perfect health (but refusing to get any bloodwork done, strangely, and even if a B12 deficiency or other deficiency develops, some remain in denial and say that it's no problem because they can just take B12 or omega 3 or other supplement).

I look at those forums less and less, because my parents instilled in me the ethic to help others, and most of them don't want my sort of help (though some have thanked me for the info I've shared, sometimes with private messages, so they don't get chewed out by the most zealous vegans), and some of the cases are quite painful to see. I've seen men reduced to effeminate-looking skeletons, all the while they're saying how great they look and feel and other vegans are chiming in. Once in a while someone will pipe up and say, "But he looks like a concentration camp victim!" like the boy who pointed out that the emperor was wearing no clothes, only to be chastised and contradicted by most of the others. It's amazing what confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and green eye shades can do to people. This is one reason that I was attracted here by Lex Rooker's journal, because he shared the bad and ugly along with the good, and I've endeavored to do the same. Sometimes folks mistake that for an attack on their favorite foods, but that's not my purpose--I just try to be open and honest about my experience and not mislead myself or others.

The ones that seem to fair better and stay on a veg-heavy diet longer are the ones that include a little bit of animal food, like eggs or fish, in their diet. I recommend trying raw animal fats yourself one at a time before you conclude that they all constipate. It might be wise to start out small, as damaged digestion could inhibit your ability to digest a lot of fat. I've found that to be the case for me. As my digestion has gradually healed, I've been able to digest more and more fat. Connective tissue, lean meat and vegetable fiber are still apparently somewhat difficult for me to break down as well as most folks.

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I have never cut out veggies to the degree many do here so this is something i am working on.  But if it will help with the bowels I will cut out veg really soon  :D
It may, though individuals vary on both level of efficacy and time for improvements to occur. I suppose the only way to find out is to try it.

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Please keep me posted on any thing that works for you, you seem to be way ahead of me on making headway in this department!!
Sure, I've been at it for years. ;D I try to look on it with a positive perspective and a bit of humor, and enjoy freaking people out with the amount of stuff I can consume with zero impact on my bowels that gives most folks terrible runs. :D Oddly enough, the probiotics that seem to have helped me most (though not that much with constipation per se, but I think that they at least don't contribute to constipation and may help a little) are raw fermented cold liver oil and raw fermented honey. I never would have guessed the latter and I don't recall anyone ever recommending it. It just seemed like something worth trying.

One nice thing currently is that my hemorrhoids happen to be more shrunk down right now than they have been in quite some time despite some continued constipation. Also, there have been brief periods where I've had essentially perfect bowels, which shows me that there's the potential for further improvements over the longer run.

It does get frustrating at times, though, having to remember to be aware of it and not eat too much of this or that or too little of the other. I envy the traditional Siberians like the Evenks with sound digestion, flora and colons that can eat nothing but meat (including fat, organs and blood), fish, fermented reindeer milk and water for months on end without the slightest constipation and who don't understand why Westerners get constipated when they eat the same stuff.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 11:47:14 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 11:52:39 pm »
Oh i am sorry  :(, i did not come out and directly answer that one - it is a benign condition.  He really did not even go into that, he just said "Stop It!."  So I did.  It was rough though, nadda would make me go.  That is why i went to get colonics to help strengthen those muscles back up and it really did help.    Also why I went on the high raw vegan diet and that helped too.  BUT i am learning that much fiber, even fruits and veg, is just too much for the colon to take long term.

I've used the fermented cod liver and butter oil, but have not seen the honey, i will need to check that one out!  Or are you fermenting it yourself and know where i can find the recipe? 

I am going to need to read up on this type of diet and transitioning - all i have read is AV's book.
I'll look for past post from you and others on making this transition and keep my personal issues in mind  ;D.  I'm definitely going to try and find some stories you have shared on "freaking people out" :o  and idea's you have passed along in other threads.

Thank you Phil!! You have been a huge help getting me one step further in this journey :)

alycia

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 05:39:43 am »
Oh i am sorry  :(, i did not come out and directly answer that one - it is a benign condition.  He really did not even go into that, he just said "Stop It!."  So I did.
OK, my best guess is he doesn't want you to be dependent on sennoside laxatives.

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That is why i went to get colonics to help strengthen those muscles back up and it really did help.
I hadn't heard this claim before. What colonic did you use and how is it supposed to improve the colon muscle tone?

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Also why I went on the high raw vegan diet and that helped too.  BUT i am learning that much fiber, even fruits and veg, is just too much for the colon to take long term.
Yeah, a gastroenterologist asked me if I eat a lot of veggies because he said that can cause redundant colon (as can long-term chronic constipation).

I rarely promote a single brand of anything, but the only raw fermented honey I know of is at http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH.

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I am going to need to read up on this type of diet and transitioning - all i have read is AV's book.
There's not a lot on it. This forum is probably the second best source after AV's rather eccentric books. :) BTW, I don't endorse everything that AV or any other guru says and advise folks to think, research, investigate and experiment themselves.

Quote
I'll look for past post from you and others on making this transition and keep my personal issues in mind  ;D.  I'm definitely going to try and find some stories you have shared on "freaking people out" :o  and idea's you have passed along in other threads.
I was eating more meat in the past, which helped with a lot of stuff and even with the constipation for some weeks. I'm trying a soft-and-easily-digestible-food approach now, as I mentioned. I have to be careful though, too much carbs and my skin gets really dry and flaky and I get worsened dental problems and other issues. Luckily, the raw fermented honey has helped with the skin, which makes me think that it might be a candida overgrowth issue, as honey is supposed to be an antifungal, but I don't know why only the fermented honey has provided the benefit so far.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2011, 07:21:36 am »
After switching to cooked paleo(from non-paleo) I would sometimes do cartwheels straight after eating, just because I could.
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2011, 03:08:25 am »
OK, my best guess is he doesn't want you to be dependent on sennoside laxatives.

Have you done any cleanses (like renew life's, garden of life,  etc...) before you dove into this diet or when you were already on this diet?  I ask b/c I really would like to have a good terrain when i start this "completely" -i have been soooo dependent on fiber  :(
I bet my intestines are so stretched it will take awhile to get back to the right size. 
*I may start this as a topic in the discussion board if you or anyone does not have any advise on this one.  I would really like to see what has worked for people and b/c you also have redundant colon you know sensitivity to products.

I hadn't heard this claim before. What colonic did you use and how is it supposed to improve the colon muscle tone?

"Colon Irrigation" of warm water for about one hour.  it really works your muscles, I have been sore in the tummy like i had a great ab workout! 
You really just lay there and let your body allow the water in and when it feels it needs to release your muscles will contract and push it out (on its own - no straining  ;D)
I mainly noticed that after i did sessions of colonics i did not have to strain (until i ate bad foods or hard to digest fibers again and they just clogged me back up over time).  I personally should do it 2 times a year with my colon issues but it would be much more beneficial to get it done 1 time every couple of months.  The therapist told me it will help loosen the kinks/twist in the colon even though the MD said this was how my colon formed in the womb and only surgery will correct this. 
Yeah, a gastroenterologist asked me if I eat a lot of veggies because he said that can cause redundant colon (as can long-term chronic constipation).
REALLY!!!!!  Man i wish i would have known this or had a doctor like yours! 
But cooked veggies get absorbed right? 
I read that fiber is so broken down with cooked veggies you don't have to worry about BM's, not sure if that is true though  ???

I rarely promote a single brand of anything, but the only raw fermented honey I know of is at http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH.

Out of stock but i will watch the site for more, does that help with the colon too?  I don't do honey b/c of sugar, i use stevia but if this fermented honey will help colon issues i am going to give it a try!

There's not a lot on it. This forum is probably the second best source after AV's rather eccentric books. :) BTW, I don't endorse everything that AV or any other guru says and advise folks to think, research, investigate and experiment themselves.
You mentioned having the redundant colon so i pay attention when i see your name on topics that address this but i just don't have the time to read much either - don't like sitting down long enough.

alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2011, 03:13:10 am »
Sorry - not sure how to highlight the quotes yet -\
i'll get there  :)

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 05:28:46 am »
Quote
"Colon Irrigation" of warm water for about one hour.
Ah, those are what they used to call enemas when I was a wee lad. I used to dread them. They would temporarily free up a blockage, but they didn't address the underlying cause of the problem, so the constipation would usually return. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was a big promoter and fan of enemas. He apparently used to give them to himself every day despite eating what he called a healthy breakfast food of cooked corn flakes. It apparently never occurred to him that the problems with breakfast cereals and other processed agrarian foods might be why he developed what he viewed as a need for enemas.

I purchased the small enema device that Lex Rooker got success with but found it inadequate for my needs. I hope I don't have to go the route of the big enema bag.

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The therapist told me it will help loosen the kinks/twist in the colon even though the MD said this was how my colon formed in the womb and only surgery will correct this.
My mother claims that the family chiropracter got the kink out of her colon with manipulation. I think he used some sort of massage-type technique like reiki or myofascial release or Swedish massage. Don't know whether he really helped her or it was just coincidences, but that chiropractor was one of only two that I ever noticed any spinal benefits from, or any benefits of any kind, for that matter. So if I still lived near there I might give it a try. If I don't have much additional success I might inquire into that sort of thing in my area. Thanks for the reminder.

I did try massage therapists in the past too. It was nice and relaxing but provided no noticeable benefit beyond that, whereas the chiropractor of my childhood seemed to lessen my back pain and help my posture, which in turn improved my muscle strength. I think he said that the bone impingement on neural connections were cutting down on the signals to my muscles. Theoretically that could contribute to constipation as well.

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REALLY!!!!!  Man i wish i would have known this or had a doctor like yours!
You wouldn't have wanted him. He prescribed Glycolax for me. I knew that was powerful stuff that cleaned people out before undergoing colonoscopies, so I asked him, "Is this stuff really safe to take every day?" and he said yes and assured me that there were "no side effects" with it. I was still skeptical, so I read the material that came with it and it did indeed seem to be very benign. Only after I developed very painful toe and foot cramps and did some online searching on polyethylene glycol (the generic name) did I discover that in Europe a law had been passed years earlier to require that electrolytes be added to the product so that it wouldn't give people electrolyte deficiencies and thus cramps, despite the claims of the American pharmaceutical company that sold it that it did nothing of the sort.
 
Quote
But cooked veggies get absorbed right?
They don't get absorbed well in me. I had a cranky old doc at one point (one of my worst) who in regards to IBS-C just crankily spouted "Just eat cooked corn!" That sounded pretty nonsensical, but his nurse was a more reasonable and intelligent person and she also suggested I cut out dairy products, which had helped her. So I tried both--first eating lots of cooked corn (which largely went right through me) and then cutting out all dairy. Increasing my cooked corn intake only seemed to make matters worse if anything. Cutting out the dairy did seem to provide some small benefit and that was probably one of my first steps toward a Paleo-type diet.

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Out of stock
Their smallest size is still available if you're willing to pay for it. My next order I'm going to buy a case of the small jars to save a little money.

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but i will watch the site for more, does that help with the colon too?
I think it only helps me in the sense that it's soft and easily digestible and thus doesn't contribute to constipation. It hasn't been magically beneficial. I suppose it could partly be because I don't eat a pound a day of honey like Brady does, but I tried eating my max in one sitting, which was about 2/3 of a lb. It didn't do much noticeably for my bowels, but it did wonders for my skin.

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I don't do honey b/c of sugar
Yes, even raw honey spikes my BG and mucks up my teeth and gums, so I try not to overdo it.

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You mentioned having the redundant colon so i pay attention when i see your name on topics that address this but i just don't have the time to read much either - don't like sitting down long enough.

alycia
Hmm, not sure how fair or sporting it is to expect other people to do the work of providing you with info if you're not willing to put much time into your own searching or reciprocate, and what about the saying "The more you give, the more you will receive"? ;) On the other hand, it's good not to sit too long, as exercise can help the bowels some.


I not only tried the cleanses you mentioned, I used to sell them when I worked for a small health store and I know the BS marketing behind such products. What you do is you take a laxative product and you add some fancy-sounding herbs to it and then call it a "cleanse" and double the price. Or even better, you sell the exact same ingredients as a cheap laxative but just give it a fancy name and a lot of advertising and convince people there's something special about it. Instead of calling what comes out shit, you call it "toxins" or "poisons", so people feel like they're getting their money's worth instead of getting reamed. When I compared the ingredients list on cheap, generic products and saw that they were nearly or even exactly the same as some of the fancy-sounding expensive products, I realized that these marketers are brilliant. Completely lacking in ethics, but brilliant.

For example, this elderly lady came into the store one day and asked for H2Go. A clever name. We didn't have the product and it wasn't even in our catalogs to order, but I looked it up with the store's Internet connection and found that the ingredients were:

Magnesium 1152mg 288%
(as magnesium oxide)
Sodium (as sodium croscarmellose) 8mg 1%

Other Ingredients:
Microcrystalline cellulose, menthol.


...which were precisely the ingredients on one of our cheapest Mg products. I showed the lady this, but she insisted, "No, no it HAS to be H2Go, the one on TV" (in their ads they use marketing BS like "Only H2Go has Active Magnesia") and she had a zombie look on her face. I knew then that the sale was lost, told her about the other couple stores in town that sold supplements and wished her good luck in finding the product.

After looking at all the "cleanse" and "natural laxative" products on the shelves and on the Internet, I realized that most contained one or more of three basic ingredients: fiber (usually insoluble, sometimes soluble or both, with insoluble psyllium being the most common fiber ingredient and soluble inulin being another common one and there are pricier soluble fibers like acacia, guar gum and pectin), magnesium (most often magnesium hydroxide, which is both the cheapest form and also the strongest laxative Mg because it's the least absorbable/bioavailable form) and senna/sennosides. If the rest of the stuff were truly super-effective, they wouldn't need to add one or more of the big three.

While I worked in that store I used the opportunity to try lots of the products and learn about them and ask my customers if they got any benefits. I was rather disappointed to learn that neither I nor most of my customers got noteworthy benefits from most of them.

Quote
i have been soooo dependent on fiber  :(
I bet my intestines are so stretched it will take awhile to get back to the right size.
That may well be. I've had great improvement, but still have a ways to go. Such physical structure changes have taken longer to improve and resolve for me than issues like GERD that cleared up quickly once I hit on the way of eating that did the trick.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 06:54:46 am »
Ah, those are what they used to call enemas when I was a wee lad. I used to dread them. They would temporarily free up a blockage,

I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based). If anyone can hold an enema for an hour I will shake their hand and give them 20 bucks.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/colon-cleanse/msg52988/#msg52988

There seems to be only two ways to really put a serious dent in solving intestinal kinks and that is the above or hardcore water fasting. A regular enema is just sort of a lower intestinal wash. Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.

I know of a guy who supposedly would not change his SWD but got so into the hydrotherapy that he taught himself how to do it and did them so regularly that it even freaked out the practitioners who are usually pretty obsessive about it themselves. Anyway, within a few years not only did he correct alot of his intestinal stuff but supposedly noticeably shifted his whole internal chemistry and blood profile. I don't recommend that of course but its interesting.

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 07:20:52 am »



 
He prescribed Glycolax for me. I knew that was powerful stuff that cleaned people out before undergoing colonoscopies, so I asked him, "Is this stuff really safe to take every day?" and he said yes and assured me that there were "no side effects" with it.

Yup, mine gave me Lactulose - awful cramping and the runs.. 



sell the exact same ingredients as a cheap laxative but just give it a fancy name and a lot of advertising and convince people there's something special about it. Instead of calling what comes out shit, you call it "toxins" or "poisons", so people feel like they're getting their money's worth instead of getting reamed. When I compared the ingredients list on cheap, generic products and saw that they were nearly or even exactly the same as some of the fancy-sounding expensive products, I realized that these marketers are brilliant. Completely lacking in ethics, but brilliant.
HAHA  ;D
Yes I agree with everything in that quote. 
Wanting to rebuild and gain intestinal health may not be happening on cleanses, it just helps you "move some things out."   The colon therapist i saw did recommend to me "intestinal Soothe and build" from  Natures Sunshine. 

You know if you don't feel/notice a difference using a product THEN it's not working!  However i don't think i mentioned this on the board - i have used 2 products that i believe come from reputable companies.  I noticed it working within a day or two. " ALoe Life ALoe Vera Gold".  Body Ecology "Vitality Greens" I was and still am pretty sold on Body Ecology Products, i use to moderate there yahoo group  ;)


Hmm, not sure how fair or sporting it is to expect other people to do the work of providing you with info if you're not willing to put much time into your own searching or reciprocate, and what about the saying "The more you give, the more you will receive"? ;) On the other hand, it's good not to sit too long, as exercise can help the bowels some.
No worries I defiantly do my work and will put in what i can, I'm still learning this lifestyle which i need to be part of.   i just have not been there with this diet/lifestyle yet (still trying to figure somethings out on it).   What i was thinking is this site has so much info and interaction, i could not keep up.  To someone who was a veagn most of her life - i would have to sit at the computer till on end reading all that is here, which is a very good thing I just can't do ti with having little ones at home.  It is a great group and I am really excited about being part of it. 

Offline alycia

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2011, 07:24:51 am »
I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based). If anyone can hold an enema for an hour I will shake their hand and give them 20 bucks.


HAHA  ;D
yes that is what i meant.  I don't think it is possible to hold water that long  :)
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/colon-cleanse/msg52988/#msg52988

There seems to be only two ways to really put a serious dent in solving intestinal kinks and that is the above or hardcore water fasting. A regular enema is just sort of a lower intestinal wash. Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.

I know of a guy who supposedly would not change his SWD but got so into the hydrotherapy that he taught himself how to do it and did them so regularly that it even freaked out the practitioners who are usually pretty obsessive about it themselves. Anyway, within a few years not only did he correct alot of his intestinal stuff but supposedly noticeably shifted his whole internal chemistry and blood profile. I don't recommend that of course but its interesting.
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Thank you that is great advice!!!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 08:06:12 am by TylerDurden »

Offline KD

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2011, 09:02:01 am »
if you are considering doing raw and the internal stuff..I would probably space them out. I actually havn't done the full on hydrotherapy on this diet. I was thinking about it as an experiment but havn't gotten to it.

So, the best thing would probably be to start with one or the other. Since you've already done some of colon stuff and you feel like you've made some progress you could try raw animal/veg food diet for 3-6 months and see how that works then ease into doing another series of hydrotherapy, or not. Or you could do more and then start the diet more seriously. Usually people find their is less cravings and such that way if that is any issue.

If I was planning on doing a colonic, I would probably fast for at least a few days on water or vegetable juices and eggs. I would follow it with at least a day of juice fast and probably more eggs again for a bit before I got into raw meat. I'd likely do 2 treatments a couple days apart as well.

Also I wouldn't tell the practitioner you fancy the idea of raw meat, they might subconsciously (or consciously!@) give you a shit treatment. :/
I find alot of it is in the energy/massage work, and generally i'm pretty selective about the people I would go to.

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2011, 09:19:24 am »
I'm pretty sure she's talking about colon hydrotherapy (hopefully gravity based).
I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.

Quote
Possibly a very low fiber - high digestible - raw fat based diet with lots of eggs (and other primal stuff - hint) is likely the best way to keep things moving and increase overall health so these things can repair itself, but it seems only when its mostly empty can it really reshape itself super well.
I'm eating that sort of diet and I was recently thoroughly cleansed from head to toe by the Instincto favorite--cassia fistula. Plus, I had a colonoscopy several years ago in which I also was thoroughly cleaned out (I had to be or else the procedure would have had to be canceled). So I guess I should be in good shape on those scores.

To someone who was a veagn most of her life - i would have to sit at the computer till on end reading all that is here, which is a very good thing I just can't do ti with having little ones at home.  It is a great group and I am really excited about being part of it.  
Good point. You have to relearn a lot of stuff just to get to square one. It's probably good not to bite off too much early on and possibly get overwhelmed.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2011, 09:46:33 am »
I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.
I'm eating that sort of diet and I was recently thoroughly cleansed from head to toe by the Instincto favorite--cassia fistula. Plus, I had a colonoscopy several years ago in which I also was thoroughly cleaned out (I had to be or else the procedure would have had to be canceled). So I guess I should be in good shape on those scores.


phil, if you think this then you really have absolutely no concept of what a colonic is. You must have never bothered to even read about it so I suggest actually at least reading a few 'pro' sites before making your passive-aggressive conclusions. I don't see what the competition is or what your pro or con experiences are of relevance here. For yourself either you are now are in perfect intestinal health or your arn't, but for me I had one comment directed at you as far as knowing what the OP was talking about. What do my comments on water fasting and colonics have to do with your experiments or failures? I'm not projecting per se any method is appropriate to the situation, only ideas or misconceptions about what the internal systems might be needed to heal.


Anyway the main structural difference (which makes all the difference) is the water goes in and out through a 5 gallon tank that refills multiple times wheres an enema goes in one shot and not very far and is held for an excruciating amount of time for any positive effect at all. It fills almost the entire colon multiple times with various pressures controlled by the practitioner, so its like Niagara falls compared to a drinking fountain. You also DO get an intestinal massage the entire time  from a trained professional for exactly such purposes. The colonoscopy 'argument' about how the colon is like the inside of the mouth has proven to be bullshit for one and anyway the colonic isn't necessary meant to scrape 'muccoid plaque' necessarily. What it really gets at is carbonic gasses which I could probably lose just about everyone talking about...

It does also happen to be one of the few times the colon is mostly emptied out (no method actually empties the entire thing) and its just obvious how something filled with water can reform in ways that it cannot when its filled with solid or impacted matter or is in use. Generally the best way to break down matter is through water fasting, but it can be dangerous for most people in most situations to do extended fasting, so some 'intervention' is likely the only other fix.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:16:27 am by KD »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 10:35:42 am »
phil, if you think this then you really have absolutely no concept of what a colonic is. You must have never bothered to even read about it
You assumed incorrectly. Sure, I oversimplified by initially basically calling it an enema--perhaps that's what ticked you off--and I'll grant it "fancy enema" or even "fancy, gentle enema" status if that will mollify you, but I did read a little about "high colonics" aka "colonic irrigation" when some raw vegans mentioned it months ago to find out what they were talking about. Isn't this the basic sort of thing you've been talking about:

home version--

clinical version-- and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7f20sEMclM&feature=player_embedded

Believe me, folks at raw vegan forums go on about colonics quite a bit. For some reason, proponents of it don't seem to take "I'm not interested, thanks and if you like it, good on ya'" for an answer and I'm apparently not allowed to have an opinion that it's anything less than fantastic. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree about it because it's clear that you feel very strongly about it and I don't care enough about it one way or another to debate it. You don't have to agree with me and I encourage you to think for yourself and express your opinions to any that might be interested.

Quote
passive-aggressive conclusions
That's curious, you're coming across as more passive-aggressive to me, because you seem more interested in debating it than I am. Like I said, if it works for you, great. I'm happy for you. Enjoy it.

Quote
I don't see what the compeition is..
Neither do I. What competition? I could care less if you think that colonics are absolute perfection. Believe whatever you wish. I'm just not convinced. Am I not allowed to not be convinced by your claims? Are you the thought police or something?

Quote
either you are now are in perfect intestinal health or your arn't.
I don't seek perfection in anything. I'm not into perfectionism.

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What does my comments on water fasting and colonics have to do with your experiments?
I have no idea and I don't particularly care. I was just responding to your post. If you don't like what I wrote, then you're free to skip it. I tried to phrase things as diplomatically as I could to avoid tweaking any sensitive feelings. I can't think of a more sensitive way to phrase things without having to lie so as to agree with you. If my disagreement upsets you, there's nothing I can do about that while remaining honest, which I prefer to do, as I value honesty. I don't expect you to lie and say that colonic irrigation seems like quackery just to please me and it doesn't upset me that you disagree with me. I actually get some of the best value from folks who disagree with me, because at times I learn interesting stuff, even if it's sometimes just about what other opinions are and what folks feel really strongly about, responding to counterpoints can sometimes help clarify my own thinking, and so on.

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Anyway The main structural difference (which makes all the difference) is the water goes in and out through a 5 gallon tank...
Yes, I know about all that stuff, thanks and my opinion remains unchanged. Sorry if this upsets you.

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... has proven to be bullshit....
OK, I think that moves you up form passive aggressive to qualify for openly aggressive ;), which I respect more but can still be distracting from constructive discourse. I prefer to leave emotion out of things and deal straight-forwardly with the facts. If that's considered passive aggressive, then so be it. I don't care for drama and I'm not swayed by emotion. I hope this explains things. I can't think of a way to put it more plainly and politely.

Peace and good health,
PP
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:47:57 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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