solid foundation

[rawrock2]

Hi all, I'm glad to be here and I'm glad we all share the same diet!  So, about me.  I live in Hawai'i, I just moved here from S. Korea.  I was on the raw omnivore diet for about two months when I lived in Korea.  Now that I am back in Hawaii I have switched back to the Filipino diet here in Hawai'i.  (tons of rice, cooked beef, pork, fish, vegetables)  I switched back because of a lack of knowledge.  I'm so depressed because I don't have available here fresh raw meat like I did in Korea.  I don't know what to do.  Before I did the 2 month raw omnivore, I was a vegan for almost 2 years.  So switching to raw paleodiet cold turkey was no problem for me.  I ate plenty of cow liver, cow heart, cow brain on occasion, raw pork, and pig blood.  (all raw of course)  So now you know a bit about me. 

My questions to all you experts here are: 
1. I KNOW that we are only supposed to eat RAW foods.  So that's what I want to do.  What do I do now?  I have no way of getting fresh raw meat that hasn't been irradiated or tampered with by the government.  Should I simply go back to eating ONLY raw foods/meats by going to the store and just buying meat from the meat section?

 2. I ask this because I am retiring to the Philippines next September and I want to start a small farm there.  On my land there I already have about 15 different fruit trees and a few plants/wild plants/herbs that are growing there.  (I'm only growing vegetables that can be eaten raw right out of the ground)  I would like to know what can I study to know what common knowledge/common sense to our ancestors regarding everything about food?  Specifically, things like what to do immediately after killing livestock/wild game to make it last for a long time (to eat it raw later), how to prepare a kill, eating it right after you kill it, skin it, make the raw meat last for weeks, etc etc.  I mean I want to learn it all kinda like if I was put in the jungle naked and had to survive, stuff like that  (I ask this because I think this is what we all should know, if the world ever collapses)

P.S. -I'm posting this in different places to get different responses just in case someone sees this somewhere else. 

[goodsamaritan]

Wow, retiring in the Philippines and farming. 
Nice plan.  You are married to a Filipina?

Maybe we can meet up in the future.

If you live near the ocean in the Philippines, then you get a lot of fresh sea food then raw / wild meat will be easy for you in the form of sea food.

Goats and cows in the Philippines are generally grass fed.  Since you will be in your own farm, you can raise your own organic chicken, ducks, turkeys so your supply of raw organic meat is assured.

Plus you can have as many coconut trees (coconut juice, milk, meat) as you want and all those yummy Philippine organic / wild fruits. 

Where will your farm be located?

[TylerDurden]

Everyone goes through an initial phase where they think they can't find any suitable high-quality grassfed/organic meats. This is nonsense. There's always some farm nearby which stores it or a far away one which delivers it to your door. Here's one from the eatwild.com site:-

http://www.eatwild.com/products/hawaii.html

Also ask people at the Pangaia website - they're a Primal Diet-oriented raw-animal-food-eating community in Hawaii  who will know exactly where to get hold of high-quality raw meats:-

http://www.pangaia.cc/raw.html

Also, search on Google under "hawaii grassfed organic meats" etc. You'll inevitably find something. Most people in continental US buy via delivery from online  grassfed farms such as Slanker's or NorthStar Bison, but they presumably won't deliver to hawai(yet check them out, just in case I'm wrong).

[rawrock2]

Hi good samaritan, no I'm not married yet but my girlfriend is from Ilocos Norte.  (you probably already know this since I live in Hawai'i... mostly all Ilocanos here)  She is from Baccara and her land is there.  (that's the land I mentioned above)  Actually the land I plan to buy will probably be about 15-20 min. away from her house.  (I don't want to be too close to her family but within a reasonable distance)  I plan on buying 20 acres (10 hectares = $80K) of land near the ocean.  Yes, I will raise pigs, horses, goats, cows, ducks, turkeys, chickens.  (can I raise any kind of animal I want on my farm in PI like lamb, ox, bison, sheep, elk, deer??)  (also can I keep a mongoose as a pet in PI?)

I trying to learn as much as I can about farming/wilderness, killing/preparing meat before I go there so I'll be somewhat ready.  You see, I want to be able to kill an animal and eat it raw right then but also I need to know what I have to do to the meat, carcass, organs, blood so that it will last as long as possible (weeks or more) and not become rotten.

Tyler, I guess I should have been a bit more specific when I said Hawai'i.  I'm on the island of O'ahu not the Big Island which is where Pangaia is located.  The paleo diet scene is alive there.  It is almost non-existent here on O'ahu.  This is because O'ahu is overcrowed and urban while the Big Island is very green and rural.  I have actually been in contact with Pangaia since February of this year.  I plan to reside at Pangaia for 1 month to see if I like it.  The place in the eatwild link you posted is on Molokai yet another island.  There are no stores here on the island of O'ahu that I know of yet... 

With that said, should I just eat the meat from a regular store?  (that's probably better than cooking it....?)  I could as get the meat delivered here but wouldn't that be very expensive compared to purchasing it here on island?  If you do get it delivered then I presume you just thaw it out and eat it?

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, I guess I should have been a bit more specific when I said Hawai'i.  I'm on the island of O'ahu not the Big Island which is where Pangaia is located.  The paleo diet scene is alive there.  It is almost non-existent here on O'ahu.  This is because O'ahu is overcrowed and urban while the Big Island is very green and rural.  I have actually been in contact with Pangaia since February of this year.  I plan to reside at Pangaia for 1 month to see if I like it.  The place in the eatwild link you posted is on Molokai yet another island.  There are no stores here on the island of O'ahu that I know of yet... 

With that said, should I just eat the meat from a regular store?  (that's probably better than cooking it....?)  I could as get the meat delivered here but wouldn't that be very expensive compared to purchasing it here on island?  If you do get it delivered then I presume you just thaw it out and eat it?

You should get it delivered to your door. I can't imagine that it's hideously expensive to order grassfed meat from a farm via boat. Most such deliveries are frozen, it's only chilled if you specifically request it. Otherwise, depend on raw, wildcaught  seafood for lean protein(should be easy in Hawaii), and just order raw animal fats like raw suet/marrow/tongue/muscle-fat etc.

[rawrock2]

Tyler, I stand corrected.    I just found a store which sells free-range chicken, grass-fed beef, and other organic meats.  Guess I spoke too soon, anyway I'm glad I found it.  For anyone else on O'ahu here is the link:

http://www.oahuhealthguide.com/directory/display.htm?listID=5749&lspecial=featured&hhsid=990f2e21edf3e15f90d228b3c99ff9eb

http://kokua.coop/  

Still looking for resources for foundational knowledge in preparing kills etc.

[boxcarguy07]

Hey rawrock! Welcome!
Good to hear you found a good source of meats! 

[goodsamaritan]

Hi good samaritan, no I'm not married yet but my girlfriend is from Ilocos Norte.  (you probably already know this since I live in Hawai'i... mostly all Ilocanos here)  She is from Baccara and her land is there.  (that's the land I mentioned above)  Actually the land I plan to buy will probably be about 15-20 min. away from her house.  (I don't want to be too close to her family but within a reasonable distance)  I plan on buying 20 acres (10 hectares = $80K) of land near the ocean.  Yes, I will raise pigs, horses, goats, cows, ducks, turkeys, chickens.  (can I raise any kind of animal I want on my farm in PI like lamb, ox, bison, sheep, elk, deer??)  (also can I keep a mongoose as a pet in PI?)

First of all, foreigners cannot buy land in the Philippines.  It's either you put your land in the name of your girlfriend, or you setup a corporation where you own 40% and distribute the 60% to a few filipinos you can trust, make sure the secretary is your confidant.

Yes I believe you can raise any animal you want in your land, it is your land.  Philippines is a free country.  Yes, there really is freedom to raise any kind of animal in your land, especially in the provinces. I have seen lamb, ox, sheep and deer in the Philippines, I have not seen bison and elk.

I think there is a Philippine retirement program by the government encouraging foreign retirees.

Wow, when your plan does materialize, remember to invite me over so I can taste your exotic meat!  Deer, bison and elk are exotic to me.

It's quite a long way via bus for me to travel from Manila, too tiring by car.

[rawrock2]

You should get it delivered to your door.

As I try to spread the word about my diet one thing I always have a hard time explaining is what to do about the cost of going back to our natural diet the right way.  (i.e. grass-fed, no antibiotics, etc.)  As we all know eating like this is very expensive.  Going back to what I asked earlier in this thread, for someone who can't afford to have it delivered to their door, should they just eat raw meat for a regular supermarket then?  Wouldn't that be better than cooking it anyway?  I'm want to find out how to apply this way of living to 'most basic person'.  (cheapest way possible to live this way in the city with no time)

[TylerDurden]

There are dozens of websites detailing how to cut up deer carcasses:-


http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/natres/06504.html
 Just Google.

[TylerDurden]

As I try to spread the word about my diet one thing I always have a hard time explaining is what to do about the cost of going back to our natural diet the right way.  (i.e. grass-fed, no antibiotics, etc.)  As we all know eating like this is very expensive.  Going back to what I asked earlier in this thread, for someone who can't afford to have it delivered to their door, should they just eat raw meat for a regular supermarket then?  Wouldn't that be better than cooking it anyway?  I'm want to find out how to apply this way of living to 'most basic person'.  (cheapest way possible to live this way in the city with no time)

Lex's solution, before he discovered a suitable raw grassfed meat product, was to take 30 large(?) capsules a day of cheap, low-quality cod-liver oil, while eating grainfed meat, so as to ensure high enough omega-3 fats in the right ratio. However, I STRONGLY advise you to talk to Lex(ask him on his journal on the forum or via personal message:- he buys from Slanker's(In Texas?) and pays FAR less than he did on a standard cooked-junk-food diet - he's happy to also buy some good-quality 100% grassfed meat/organ-meat mix designed for pets, all of which makes things very cheap indeed.

Of course, if you don't have a credit-card, you won't be able to order from farms far away, so you should keep on looking for local farms in your immediate area. Also, if you're next to the coast, you could get hold of wildcaught fish.

[rawrock2]

So, basically eating any raw meat is ok. (i.e. from the supermarket) :

You know, I've heard about how bad cooking is for us but really it all boils down to adaptation.  I'm not sure but I don't think it would be recommended for someone who travels frequently to consume raw meat when in different countries.  If all the propoganda about eating raw meat and the dangers associated with it are basically the same thing everywhere (i.e. different coutries as well) then I could be wrong here.  This is why I question specifically the ability to consume raw meat from anywhere like supermarkets, etc.

If raw meat period is ok, then I'm going to encourage others here (Hawai'i) to just try and eat any raw meat.  I thought meat that had flies, maggots, on it couldn't be consumed but it can along with the creepies (protein).   I see no need in jumping through the extra hoops to get "better meat".  (I can't justify it to my friends either)  They follow my lead.  If I eat it and live then they will try it accordingly.

[TylerDurden]

So, basically eating any raw meat is ok. (i.e. from the supermarket) :

You know, I've heard about how bad cooking is for us but really it all boils down to adaptation.  I'm not sure but I don't think it would be recommended for someone who travels frequently to consume raw meat when in different countries.  If all the propoganda about eating raw meat and the dangers associated with it are basically the same thing everywhere (i.e. different coutries as well) then I could be wrong here.  This is why I question specifically the ability to consume raw meat from anywhere like supermarkets, etc.

If raw meat period is ok, then I'm going to encourage others here (Hawai'i) to just try and eat any raw meat.  I thought meat that had flies, maggots, on it couldn't be consumed but it can along with the creepies (protein).   I see no need in jumping through the extra hoops to get "better meat".  (I can't justify it to my friends either)  They follow my lead.  If I eat it and live then they will try it accordingly.

Grainfed meat is NOT OK. I only gave Lex's example re not being able to find grassfed meats as a short-term possibility while finding better sources. Low-quality cod-liver oil is largely useless as a supplement, IMO. Just get grassfed meat, if you can't afford it(unlikely), just go in for Intermittent Fasting.

[rawrock2]

just go in for Intermittent Fasting

Sorry, I don't think I could ever not feed myself if I'm hungry on purpose.  That would totally go against my theme of being natural.  I don't believe in fasting.

[TylerDurden]

Sorry, I don't think I could ever not feed myself if I'm hungry on purpose.  That would totally go against my theme of being natural.  I don't believe in fasting.

Judging from recent scientific reports, you'll live longer on IF than if you just eat to your heart's content.

[rawrock2]

Judging from recent scientific reports, you'll live longer on IF than if you just eat to your heart's content.

Maybe who knows.  I look to nature for my dietary answers not science.  I don't know of any animals that intentionally fast so why should I?  Sometimes I think we make diet more complicated than it really is.  For the most part, just kill it and eat it.  Raw.

[Squall]

I don't know of any animals that intentionally fast so why should I?

I believe animals will refuse to eat food for days on end when they are healing from trauma. For instance, when you bring a pet home from the vet after some sort of surgery, they will most usually hide themselves for days, only coming out occasionally to get some water.

I think the theory is that fasting allows the body to perform some sort of deep cleaning on tissues that have been damaged.

[rawrock2]

I believe animals will refuse to eat food for days on end when they are healing from trauma.

Yes, but I don't believe they are doing that of their own volition.  I said intentionally.  It is because of the pain that they don't eat and because of the shame that they hide themselves. (dogs anyway)

[Satya]

Yes, welcome!  Sorry I am so late.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, but I don't believe they are doing that of their own volition.  I said intentionally.  It is because of the pain that they don't eat and because of the shame that they hide themselves. (dogs anyway)

You're missing the point. It's irrelevant as to whether animals fast intentionally or not. Many species are forced to fast for long periods(eg:- crocodiles who only eat during the wet season each year and can survive for months without food,or tigers  and wolves who have to go without food for days/weeks on a constant basis because prey is scarce etc.). Fasting is such a common occurrence among wild animals, since they often don't have the instant access to foods that we have in human society.

[rawrock2]

You're missing the point. It's irrelevant as to whether animals fast intentionally or not. Many species are forced to fast for long periods(eg:- crocodiles who only eat during the wet season each year and can survive for months without food,or tigers  and wolves who have to go without food for days/weeks on a constant basis because prey is scarce etc.).

What 'point' am I missing?  Animals are forced to go without food for periods of time.  That's what I'm saying.  It is NOT their intention not to eat rather because the food isn't available or some other reason.  Intermittent fasting is not by force, it is by choice.  That's the point.  You list animals that can survive without food and write that off as being a common occurrence among wild animals.  THAT is irrelevant to fasting.  Just in case you weren't aware that there are humans that don't eat everyday or for days at a time.  Is this going to lengthen their life?   

I'm not implying that fasting is bad/unhealthy, all I'm saying is that it is unnatural.  That's all.  If you want to starve yourself, go right ahead that's your business.  If an animal is hungry and there is food available, then they are going to eat.  No question about it.  They are not going to pass the meal up in hopes of living longer.  Kinda defeats the purpose, right?

[TylerDurden]

What 'point' am I missing?  Animals are forced to go without food for periods of time.  That's what I'm saying.  It is NOT their intention not to eat rather because the food isn't available or some other reason.  Intermittent fasting is not by force, it is by choice.  That's the point.  You list animals that can survive without food and write that off as being a common occurrence among wild animals.  THAT is irrelevant to fasting.  Just in case you weren't aware that there are humans that don't eat everyday or for days at a time.  Is this going to lengthen their life?  

I'm not implying that fasting is bad/unhealthy, all I'm saying is that it is unnatural.  That's all.  If you want to starve yourself, go right ahead that's your business.  If an animal is hungry and there is food available, then they are going to eat.  No question about it.  They are not going to pass the meal up in hopes of living longer.  Kinda defeats the purpose, right?

You still haven't got the point. Fasting is natural because it's a natural part of Nature(ie most wild animals, unlike humans, have far fewer food-supplies available throughout their life, and that this is, therefore, the "natural" state of things for them), so it's a part of their life. Plus, judging from the recent scientific studies on mice and rats, it's been confirmed that mice/rats on Intermittent Fasting(and caloric restriction) DO live much longer than mice/rats given 3 meals a day:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction#Intermittent_fasting_as_an_alternative_approach

In the case of humans, in Palaeo times, many humans had to go without food for long periods, due to scarcity of prey. It's only in modern times, that an unnatural, plentiful supply of food is available - which is one reason for the rising levels of obesity etc., nowadays.

[rawrock2]

You still haven't got the point. Fasting is natural because it's a natural part of Nature(ie most wild animals, unlike humans, have far fewer food-supplies available throughout their life, and that this is, therefore, the "natural" state of things for them), so it's a part of their life.

I do get what I think you're trying to say but I'm not sure if you fully do though.  The 'natural' state of things for some is a plentiful amount of food.  So, wouldn't it make sense to eat and not fast for those individuals?  Going off what you're saying, the animals don't always have food so naturally they don't (can't) eat.  Therefore, if you have an abundance of food and you're hungry, wouldn't not eating it be unnatural.  Fasting (i.e. intermittent fasting) means abstaining from food. (by choice)  Actually after looking at the definition of 'fasting', what is going on in the wild is NOT fasting.  It is not by choice.  What if the animals die of starvation.  Are we to say the period that elapsed between the last time they had a meal and their death was a period of fasting.  Are the people in Africa who don't have enough food to eat going on extended fasts?

[TylerDurden]

I do get what I think you're trying to say but I'm not sure if you fully do though.  The 'natural' state of things for some is a plentiful amount of food.  So, wouldn't it make sense to eat and not fast for those individuals?  Going off what you're saying, the animals don't always have food so naturally they don't (can't) eat.  Therefore, if you have an abundance of food and you're hungry, wouldn't not eating it be unnatural.  Fasting (i.e. intermittent fasting) means abstaining from food. (by choice)  Actually after looking at the definition of 'fasting', what is going on in the wild is NOT fasting.  It is not by choice.  What if the animals die of starvation.  Are we to say the period that elapsed between the last time they had a meal and their death was a period of fasting.  Are the people in Africa who don't have enough food to eat going on extended fasts?

I don't see the difference between intentional and unintentional fasting. Either way, the animals or humans aren't eating as much as before. As regards humans doing IF, they are simply recreating the conditions their ancestors had in more "natural" Palaeolithic times - as a result, they become healthier. As regards (certain) African countries and fasting, actually, their health-problems are not so much due to fasting(fasting, of itself, would prevent them from getting Western conditions like obesity and related diseases like diabetes), but due to depending hevaily on  unhealthy antinutrient-rich "foods" like cassava(which contains cyanide, inside, incidentally, and needs to be processed to have the stuff removed). By the way, I couldn't help noticing that the people in Kenya were much healthier than Westerners, even though they had less access to food(albeit relatively healthy food).

[wodgina]

This is the weirdest discussion.

I think what your saying is that the human mind and the ability to make conscious decisions is unnatural. Choosing when to eat and when not eat even in the abundance of food.

I think using the conscious mind is a very 'natural' thing for a human to do.

Andrew (isn't 'fasting' his just 'not eating!')