Glycogen in muscles/short bursts of energy on zero carb

[Josh]

Well it would have been 37 degrees c ish to start with, so reckon heating up to there is fine.

How many eggs do you eat out of interest klowcarb?

[TylerDurden]

40 degrees centigrade/104 degrees fahrenheit is the upper limit.

[pioneer]

Basically, what you lot are saying is that cooked animal food is "less worse/less unhealthy" than raw plant foods, so that, therefore, it must be healthy. This is such deluded, illogical reasoning, it's absurd. riety such as Carol Alt deal with.

No, if you please reread my post, I said that whether meat is cooked or not, it is essential for optimal health. The degeneration of having a diet totally devoid of meat is a lot worse than having a diet full of raw fruits/veggies and cooked meat. I am not saying that cooked meat isnt degenerating, because it definitely is. I am saying that if we look back into history, all the records show humans eating cooked meat for long durations, however no group of humans survived for generations with diets completely devoid of meat or animal byproducts. Veganism and fruitarianism are seriously experiments, and not conducive to health long term or for generations to come. Even the hindus who grew strong ate milk and eggs in large quantities so a vegetarian diet or a partially vegan diet with some animal products shows some merit. However, even if a vegan or vegetarian looks and claims to be healthy now, even for decades or their whole lives, the epigenetic factor tells us that their kids and grandkids will be affected for their misguided dietary wrongdoings.

[cliff]

Obliviously no one here is advocating veganism.  We have tons of examples of people procreating generation after generation on largely plant based diets.  We are tropical creatures for the most part and even if we aren't, like I said carbs are always available in almost every temperate climate, maybe if you have some inuit fantasy that you feel like living out I guess you can copy them but I don't know who would want to do that.


We already know that people that actually live in jungles and what they eat and what they don't eat

Enlighten us please.

From what I remember that so-called undiscovered amazon tribe(not really undiscovered) had plantains, papaya and cassava.  Who cares what they eat though?

I find you guys really fall for the if its wild its good fallacy which is absolutely false imo.


HG's exploited hundred if not thousands of plants, they had a vast knowledge of the ecosystem.  I can hardly take a westerner serious who claims there is not one sustainable wild plant that could sustain people(I'm not talking about just eating that one plant either because that's stupid).  Its an absolutely idiotic claim especially coming from some random on the internet.

I'm not attacking you either I'm just stating my thoughts, you can take them however you want.

[miles]

At what point does warming meat in a pan turn to cooking? A genuine question. I do not really like my meat cold, and I hate raw eggs. So I semi-cook!

When it gets hotter than the natural body-temperature of that animal. But it could be cooked on the outside and raw on the inside.

[TylerDurden]

No, if you please reread my post, I said that whether meat is cooked or not, it is essential for optimal health. The degeneration of having a diet totally devoid of meat is a lot worse than having a diet full of raw fruits/veggies and cooked meat.

  This is a false, wholly dishonest  comparison. A genuine comparison would be between a diet of 100 percent raw fruits/veggies and a diet of 100 percent cooked animal foods. Well, with the first type of diet, I would do OK, but slowly deteriorate over several
years due to nutritional deficiencies - with the latter type of RZC diet, I would waste away and die at a far faster rate, as I simply cannot handle going RZC for long periods as I progressively get very serious health-problems therefrom within weeks. Other raw omnivores here have similiar experiences.

Anyway, like cliff said a)  No one here is advocating the eating of 100 percent raw plant food diets, we are merely stating that high-raw-carb diets are "less worse" for many people than cooked-palaeodiets involving lots of cooked animal foods and b) there are many cases of tribes etc. doing fine on diets high in plant foods/low in animal foods - no wonder, since cooked plant foods generate far fewer heat-created toxins than cooked animal foods.

[proteus]

the only reason i avoid carbs is for weight loss.  i don't think there is anything wrong with carbs if they aren't making you gain weight.  a 100% fruitarian diet is crap not because its high in carbs but because its low in everything else.

[Löwenherz]

All these people eat fruit though and none eat processed carbs.  There is no scientific evidence or real life evidence that processed carbs>fruit.  Robert Lustig the authority on fructose thinks there is nothing wrong with eating very large quantities of fruit.  Unless your a total fructose phobe I don't get how anyone could ever claim that processed carbs are better then fruit.  I guarantee you that if 811ers did processed carbs instead of fruit they would be majorly fcked.

Fruits are better than cooked starches AS LONG AS your body is able to handle the fructose. People with Fructose Malarbsorption (like me) can get in serious trouble when eating more than small amounts of fruits. In such cases fruits can show really toxic effects whereas cooked starches are relatively harmless. And there are MANY people with FM issues...

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

...The advantage then of eating very little or any plant carbs would then be the eventual efficient conversion of the fats they consume (minus carbohydrates) as usable energy. Theres plenty of other arguments re blood sugar and other things but essentially after carb intolerance or whatever this seems to be the major reason for limiting carbs.

Exactly!
I have seen again and again that fruits destroy my body's ability to digest fats und use fats as energy source. This effect can be confirmed by most '801010' - dieters. After a while on this high fruit diet many of them report that even half an avocado (!) per day becomes too much fat for them.

I think we all agree here that animal fats are superior to any sugar.

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

I think we all agree here that animal fats are superior to any sugar.

Löwenherz

No, since some of us have greater, nastier side-effects from cooked animal fats than we get from raw plant sugars....

[Löwenherz]

...like I said carbs are always available in almost every temperate climate, maybe if you have some inuit fantasy that you feel like living out I guess you can copy them but I don't know who would want to do that.

Cliff,

could you please show me where I can find "ALWAYS available carbs" in Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Canada, New Zealand or Argentina?

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

No, since some of us have greater, nastier side-effects from cooked animal fats than we get from raw plant sugars....

I thought that this is a RAW FOOD forum. I never talked about cooked fats.

Löwenherz

[HIT_it_RAW]

so i say load up with glycogen before a workout, and then replenish it after a workout.  stay low carb the rest of the time - especially before bed.

I agree. Very intens HIT-workouts using heavy weights are impossible on low carb, have tried extensively my body would not adapt. So now I'm low carb @~40gr a day. On weight training days(once a week) I have a meat breakfast followed by 500gr grapes with raw milk for lunch than workout in the afternoon. These are just enough carbs to be able to workout (for me). Post workout shake: 1ltr raw milk + 6 whole eggs + 2 teaspoons honey. This shake is so incredibly anabolic, since using it I've reduces my muscular soreness the day after to almost nothing. The soreness used to be crippling!

to be honest i find it hard to think of any good raw source of starch ( glucose polymers ) other than bananas.  if anybody has any ideas i would be interested too.

Grapes/pineapple are a great carb source if you can burn them shortly after consuming. Would never eat them and than sit on my ass.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Cliff,

could you please show me where I can find "ALWAYS available carbs" in Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Canada, New Zealand or Argentina?

Löwenherz

The underground rootes of our native Phragmites australis supply starch year round. The above ground stalks are also starchy almost year round. Both raw and cooked edible.

[KD]

 

This is pretty much the last of what I can say on this. The very fact that people cannot comprehend how junk foodists or cooked vegans can avoid these issues with probably worse deficiencies or toxicity means people don't have alot of what I would consider knowledge around these kinds of health paradigms which people have witnessed for like 100 years now.

Carol Alt would never recommend a diet of all fruits with some meats.
Her diet isn't 'diversified' the way it simply because she' likes to eat entertainment foods'. She was treated by Dr. Timothy Brantley. who recommendeds mostly a low fruit high veg and veg fat diet that includes animal protein for repair.

Regardless of what peoples stance on non fruit items in the 'raw paleo' world....when people eat all the denser types of plant foods it totally shifts the paradigm and has nothing to do with people taking it upon themselves through theories and extrapolating on that..and then trying to eat 'light' diets that don't have heavy fats and other binders never-mind other health protocols she has taken advantage of. Its when people think.."oh this must be better because it has none of these toxic foods and my body must regenerate this way" that they run into problems.

the problem is: stirring around ancient putrefactive waste with no carrier or binder to bring it out of the body and the obvious that the body is not a clean tube to just uptake minerals and nutrients from food..but a situation where even natural foods don't always feed the right kinds of cells and organisms.

for the denser type of toxic junk food folks...they arn't really involved as much in that process..  so at that point they are just suffering the problems of those foods (toxins)..and the deficiencies therein . The people that eat sprout diets and green juice diets and all these other things which would include less toxins from the junk folks will similarly suffer a lack of animal fats and other proteins but these people have a larger chance of avoiding the exact symptoms that many of these long term 'success stories' exhibit on diets unconscious of how fruits work in the body.

People can eat very little meat and not mystify me with that at all. Lacto-ovo folks do well...if one is using the same yardstick one is assessing many of these rawfoodists. Again the issues is if people with health issues can repair their health that way. meat or not..these people often share the same characteristics and attitudes towards health even when others clearly use other tools to their advantage.

Traditional peoples of tropical areas don't eat all raw food..I thought that was self explanatory. On the topic..these people understand what types of foods actually build the body and they often don't even 'take advantage' of even all the raw wild uncultivated fruits in the area as nutritional staples. If we are talking about people that are relatively pure of modern problems..this wouldn't apply to us anyway.

When we are talking about athletics and performance..people really do need to look at the types of carbs and ways that these things augment such things. Of course this is not the same as the healthiest in all probability ..but we know that different 'carbs' have different properties..and that when you lower carbs to a certain level certain things are going to change metabolically too..so it doens't have to have anything to do with what is theoretically right in nature (or which carbs are 'toxic')..its just happens to be a likely way that humans existed at least during the various ice ages and things when we 'moved away from our original environment"

So if you are looking for rationale as to why people would limit fruit. here are some reasons that may or may not vibe for you. So by that token whether a diet high in veg fats and vegetables or a meat/fat person person would not just add say 10 pieces of fruit to their diet daily and expect health or performance just because they (theoretically) gain minerals and vitamins and calories. Doing these types of things effects the very programs for fitness and their health at the very least in an arbitrary way. This doesn't say given the proper strategies someone CAN'T do well on even tons of fruit..its just a matter how how they are thinking about these issues and what their strategies are and how/if they are indeed clearing old wastes and building new tissues.

[TylerDurden]

This is the reply I finally got from the Primal Diet yahoo group on Aajonus's stance re cooked starches. It seems that raw nuts are preferred to cooked starches for detox, and cooked starches, as I'd thought, were viewed as being problematic. Haven't got the book with me, perhaps someone could cite the exact passage from the 2005 edition or a later one:-

"Dear Geoff,

It is my understanding that one of the big differences between "We Want
To Live"
(1997) and and "We Want Want To Live: the Primal Diet" (2005) is this
important
starches issue.

Look at p. 183-184 of the 2005 edition for a complete explanation.

I'm surprised no one answered you about this by now. Regarding the

http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p80.htm

website, I think that is quite old. It think this predates the 2005 edition.
If Karl wants to be current with this information, I hope he will run it
by Aajonus to see if it is correct, especially the paragraph on cooked
starch in number 6.

In some of the workshops, Aajonus specifically addressed the issue
of starches. As it is nicely put in the 2005 edition, carbohydrates for
detox
can be found in nuts that don't have the drawbacks of cooked starches.
So when detox of that kind is needed, use the nut formula, not cooked
grain or potatoes.

The exceptions to this are, according to Aajonus' experience as he
related it in the workshops, quite rare."

[TylerDurden]

Well, KD, I think we all agree that plant foods can't rebuild the body anywhere near as well as animal foods. I would disagree re the detox issue as detox can occur if one only eats raw plant foods, for example. At least it's often mentioned by raw vegans and I experienced something of the sort in my own  raw vegan/fruitarian days.

HGs are a rather bad example as they simply took whatever was in their environment, so they had to eat cooked tubers and the like  even though they appear to have considered them their least favourite foods. Also, when faced with famine, I'm sure it made more sense for them, calorie-wise, to eat animal foods than plant foods if they had a choice. If they didn't, I suspect they would have happily eaten any raw fruit available.

[cliff]

Cliff,

could you please show me where I can find "ALWAYS available carbs" in Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Canada, New Zealand or Argentina?

Löwenherz

Underground storage organs, cattails and probably many more I don't even know about.  Just because you think they don't exist doesn't mean anything.  Hg's utilize thousands of plants in there local environment, you would have to do the research for yourself.  A lot of Carb sources can also be stored for prolonged periods without detriment(even fruits like the baobab can be stored for very long time)

[Löwenherz]

Underground storage organs, cattails and probably many more I don't even know about.  Just because you think they don't exist doesn't mean anything.  Hg's utilize thousands of plants in there local environment, you would have to do the research for yourself.  A lot of Carb sources can also be stored for prolonged periods without detriment(even fruits like the baobab can be stored for very long time)

These plants make a low carb diet possible, but not more. We were talking about diets based predominantly on carbs...

Löwenherz

[Hanna]

Quote from: Löwenherz on Yesterday at 06:46:35 pm
Cliff,

could you please show me where I can find "ALWAYS available carbs" in Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Canada, New Zealand or Argentina?

Löwenherz

Underground storage organs, cattails and probably many more I don't even know about.  Just because you think they don't exist doesn't mean anything.  Hg's utilize thousands of plants in there local environment, you would have to do the research for yourself.  A lot of Carb sources can also be stored for prolonged periods without detriment(even fruits like the baobab can be stored for very long time)

Acorns are another example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn#As_food
http://www.calorie-counter.net/nuts-calories/acorns.htm
http://www.rohkostszene.de/godo-gehen-t1232,highlight,eicheln.html

Perhaps PaleoPhil knows other examples?

[KD]

Well, KD, I think we all agree that plant foods can't rebuild the body anywhere near as well as animal foods. I would disagree re the detox issue as detox can occur if one only eats raw plant foods, for example. At least it's often mentioned by raw vegans and I experienced something of the sort in my own  raw vegan/fruitarian days.

thanks for the bit on Aajonus..and not ripping apart my post. I was aware that he doesn't believe all starch is 'healthy'..only that many kinds still could be useful and there was one of these minorities that relayed to me he was doing this (rice not wheat) under 'supervision' to what he believed to be productive. I do also suspect as before that when not talking 1:1 that he would rather see someone eat some poor quality starch to tons of fruit regularly. I guess that is not important to some and I'm not sure i'm 100% on board with all those ideas myself but I don't question the potential to trump the kinds of basic requirements of the original healthy humans. In the same vein, by and large what the issue is...is people objecting to what could possibly be useful OR detrimental..because it doesn't fit whatever their idea of healthful nutrition is. It is to me sort of the same as copying an HG diet..and expecting to be even close to the health of an HG..which is largely based on their inheritance and healthful environment. I guess this would particularly true if people didn't see HGs as healthy to begin with...I tend to just assume they would be at least starting from a point where some things might not be as damaging as to modern people.

I'm aware I'm not exactly giving off evidence to prove any of my other more adventurous claims either (although I do think some at least are fairly self-evident), but the thing is..is that there are more health authorities other than Aajonus that even when they see fruit as healthful food and are not ZC or even low carbers..often do have their own rationalizations of other fats or proteins or plant carbs over fruits. These people don't ever recommend indiscriminate attitudes towards such regardless of how many other nutrients they are eating. This is particularly true in the athletic fields...I don't think anyone can dispute that part.

Basically my original point is that in a way it doesn't make a lot of sense to come at VLC/ZC from these arguments of what is even the most abundant 'nutritionally' (as why not eat carbs if they are natural and non toxic) if one can point to how some of these other factors impact health and if there are advantages of such diets...

[pioneer]

  This is a false, wholly dishonest  comparison. A genuine comparison would be between a diet of 100 percent raw fruits/veggies and a diet of 100 percent cooked animal foods. Well, with the first type of diet, I would do OK, but slowly deteriorate over several
years due to nutritional deficiencies - with the latter type of RZC diet, I would waste away and die at a far faster rate, as I simply cannot handle going RZC for long periods as I progressively get very serious health-problems therefrom within weeks. Other raw omnivores here have similiar experiences.

Anyway, like cliff said a)  No one here is advocating the eating of 100 percent raw plant food diets, we are merely stating that high-raw-carb diets are "less worse" for many people than cooked-palaeodiets involving lots of cooked animal foods and b) there are many cases of tribes etc. doing fine on diets high in plant foods/low in animal foods - no wonder, since cooked plant foods generate far fewer heat-created toxins than cooked animal foods.

Im curious and have always been curious on the "studies" or information base you are using to PROVE that cooked meat is bad. Everywhere I have ever searched leaves me at dead ends. Are there really any studies or food tests showing the damage done to cooking meat at low temps besides the fact that it produces carcinogens at higher temps?

[achillezzz]

WHAT THE FUCKKKKKKK

IM SO CONFUSED NOW

This thread makes me want to keep my diet simple just eat cooked paleo 2 meals a day and some fruits carbs after a workout with cold water... and once a week raw paleo meal.

[cliff]

Are there really any studies or food tests showing the damage done to cooking meat at low temps besides the fact that it produces carcinogens at higher temps?

Cooking denatures proteins making the meat more tough and less digestible, it inactivates certain nutrients, creates toxic compounds etc.  Cooking at low temps or just lightly searing might mitigate some of these effects but it still has consequences.

[proteus]

Cooking at low temps or just lightly searing might mitigate some of these effects but it still has consequences.

i was thinking about getting a slow cooker like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Hamilton-Beach-Forget-6-Quart-Programmable/dp/B001AO2PXK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1302819496&sr=8-2

do you think it would be a waste ?