Glycogen in muscles/short bursts of energy on zero carb

[pioneer]

WHAT THE FUCKKKKKKK

IM SO CONFUSED NOW

This thread makes me want to keep my diet simple just eat cooked paleo 2 meals a day and some fruits carbs after a workout with cold water... and once a week raw paleo meal.

Nah man dont do that, raw paleo is still the way to go as you are getting as close as natural as you possibly can. Also, the bacteria will help digest the meat. Problem is that even though I am a proponent of eating raw meat, many on this forum such as TylerDurden purport all of these claims like lightly cooked meat is horrible for us without anything but empirical knowledge and even inferences/ simple assumptions to back it up. I am not hating on Tyler at all, but everything, even our own theories should be backed. For instance, how do we know the enzymatic content of raw meat? It was found in the 60's and 70's that if you pick a fruit off of a tree, 30 minutes later the enzymes once in the fruit would be about half. Is this the same with meat? We just dont know. If anybody can prove me wrong on any of this and show me any kind of evidence proving that cooking meat at low temps causes cancer and releases toxins, please do so. I welcome challenges. I am not on this forum to make friends, I am on it to learn from others with similar experiences and be proven wrong if necessary. Anyone who makes a claim without being able to back it up and then gets angry when I ask them for the evidence is simply just lost in their own theories/ too set in their theories/religion to challenge it for the fear of their very foundations to crumble.

I have been  studying cholesterol for years and giving lectures on the myth of it being harmful for years, but if I was shown undeniable evidence that it did cause heart attacks, I would give up my stance. Same concept.

[Josh]

I'm using a slow cooker at the moment while I eat cooked food.

[TylerDurden]

Im curious and have always been curious on the "studies" or information base you are using to PROVE that cooked meat is bad. Everywhere I have ever searched leaves me at dead ends. Are there really any studies or food tests showing the damage done to cooking meat at low temps besides the fact that it produces carcinogens at higher temps?

  I am none too pleased with your above foolish comments since I have already answered this question before on other threads on several occasions while you were a member here. For the umpteenth time, all those heat-created toxins are created even at lower temperatures, it is merely that, the lower the cooking-temperature used, the fewer heat-created toxins are produced. Here's a few links and tables showing that even boiled foods contain heat-created toxins which are carcinogenic among many other harmful effects:-

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/1/6/1293.full

This one mentions the amounts on boiled chicken re AGEs.

http://bastyrcenter.org/content/view/976/&page=

from the above:- "The Mount Sinai researchers have shown previously that it is possible to vary the AGE content of the diet by as much as five-fold, by varying the cooking time and temperature"  In other words, cooking always creates toxins, it is merely that cooking less severely reduces the levels thereof. Nothing more.

Also:-

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/age-content-of-foods.html

I think that came from this study:-

http://www.mendeley.com/research/advanced-glycoxidation-end-products-commonly-consumed-foods/

[pioneer]

  I am none too pleased with your above foolish comments since I have already answered this question before on other threads on several occasions while you were a member here. For the umpteenth time, all those heat-created toxins are created even at lower temperatures, it is merely that, the lower the cooking-temperature used, the fewer heat-created toxins are produced. Here's a few links and tables showing that even boiled foods contain heat-created toxins which are carcinogenic among many other harmful effects:-

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/1/6/1293.full

This one mentions the amounts on boiled chicken re AGEs.

http://bastyrcenter.org/content/view/976/&page=

from the above:- "The Mount Sinai researchers have shown previously that it is possible to vary the AGE content of the diet by as much as five-fold, by varying the cooking time and temperature"  In other words, cooking always creates toxins, it is merely that cooking less severely reduces the levels thereof. Nothing more.

Also:-

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/age-content-of-foods.html

I think that came from this study:-

http://www.mendeley.com/research/advanced-glycoxidation-end-products-commonly-consumed-foods/

Thanks Tyler, but my main question is about enzymes. How do we really know if the enzymes are still present in raw meat hours or even days after a kill. It seems that in fruit, the enzymatic content lowers by the hour after picking.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Thanks Tyler, but my main question is about enzymes. How do we really know if the enzymes are still present in raw meat hours or even days after a kill. It seems that in fruit, the enzymatic content lowers by the hour after picking.

Because meat softens if you let it be. This is mostly because the enzymes present start "digesting" the meat. bacterial activity helps of course but thats mainly at the surface. Butchers have known this for very long thats why good quality meat are hang for ~14days(beef) prior consumption. this makes the meat more tender.

The hanging is done in a cool flies free place of course otherwise other more visible creatures aid in digestion 

[TylerDurden]

Precisely, one of the main reasons for hanging meats for 3 to 4 weeks is to allow the enzymes to predigest the raw meats.

[pioneer]

Precisely, one of the main reasons for hanging meats for 3 to 4 weeks is to allow the enzymes to predigest the raw meats.

Thanks Hit it Raw and TylerDurden. Tyler, I have a lot of respect towards you but am a little suspicious when I hear gurus like Aajonus speaking of all of the "tests" and "experiments" he's done to validate his studies and research. I know that you are not like this at all. Sorry if I came off as an ass...

One of the things you have said in the past just doesnt logically make sense to me though. If freezing meat is so bad, what happens in the winter when you kill an animal after days of hunting and then eat some, but hours later it freezes? Is the meat bad then? Will you be causing harm to your body if you eat it? Were the eskimos wrong for eating meat after it froze on the tundra floor? I've heard you speak of this in the past. Does the theory of freezing meat causing harm to the food have any validity?

[Löwenherz]

One of the things you have said in the past just doesnt logically make sense to me though. If freezing meat is so bad, what happens in the winter when you kill an animal after days of hunting and then eat some, but hours later it freezes? Is the meat bad then? Will you be causing harm to your body if you eat it? Were the eskimos wrong for eating meat after it froze on the tundra floor? I've heard you speak of this in the past. Does the theory of freezing meat causing harm to the food have any validity?

Freezing temperatures are absolutely 'natural', even in HG countries like Botswana. Just for this reason there should be no problems with prefrozen meats, I guess.

Have you experienced ANY bad effect when eating prefrozen meats?

Löwenherz

[pioneer]

Freezing temperatures are absolutely 'natural', even in HG countries like Botswana. Just for this reason there should be no problems with prefrozen meats, I guess.

Have you experienced ANY bad effect when eating prefrozen meats?

Löwenherz

I have never experienced any negative effects with frozen meats. However, the best healing benefit I get from meat is when I let it sit out on my counter for days or weeks. This I presume is the bacterial contents multiplying and digesting it.

[Löwenherz]

I have never experienced any negative effects with frozen meats.

Same here.

The only thing I have heard about bad effects from prefrozen meat are skin problems, without knowing any details. Therefore it would be interesting to know why Aajonus dislikes prefrozen meat so much.

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

One of the things you have said in the past just doesnt logically make sense to me though. If freezing meat is so bad, what happens in the winter when you kill an animal after days of hunting and then eat some, but hours later it freezes? Is the meat bad then? Will you be causing harm to your body if you eat it? Were the eskimos wrong for eating meat after it froze on the tundra floor? I've heard you speak of this in the past. Does the theory of freezing meat causing harm to the food have any validity?

  Freezing causes some harm to foods. First of all, freezing turns water to ice, thus tearing cell-membranes/cell-walls apart. This means that nutrient-loss occurs much faster when the food is thawed, plus I think there is some minor damage to nutrients as a result of freezing. At any rate, many people find prefrozen meat to taste less good once thawed compared to nonfrozen raw meats. I've also heard that enzymes are slightly damaged by freezing, though the extent of that is unclear.

Since only very few RVAFers report issues with prefrozen meats, it's generally recommended by us most times.

[proteus]

It has occurred to me that bee pollen can be a pretty good source of carbs ?

are there any known issues with consuming large quantities of it ? 

[TylerDurden]

It has occurred to me that bee pollen can be a pretty good source of carbs ?

are there any known issues with consuming large quantities of it ? 

  Well I got some bizarre feelings of intense heat after eating sundried bee-pollen. No idea re others' experiences.

[pioneer]

   At any rate, many people find prefrozen meat to taste less good once thawed compared to nonfrozen raw meats. I've also heard that enzymes are slightly damaged by freezing, though the extent of that is unclear.

Since only very few RVAFers report issues with prefrozen meats, it's generally recommended by us most times.

You surely are right about that, frozen meats definitely dont taste as good as fresh meat, that's for sure.

[Ioanna]

i've not had any problems with my energy in any way, including sprints.  my endurance comes and goes depending on how much i've been training, just like in college days.

i am not a world-class athlete by any means, but i did qualify for olympic trials for a few consecutive years, so i know what i'm capable of and i'd notice if i couldn't sprint.

i think i want to change my answer now that i've been eating on workout occasions some raw honey.  wow, it's so much easier sustain (happily ) my endurance/sprints with just a little bit of carbs in my diet.  i'd say i eat about 2T raw honey now about 30min before practice/workout.  this little bit is enough to change something that i can sprint without having to guzzle tons of water.  if practice is mostly moderate, then i probably won't need much water at all; whereas zc i was drinking tons of water no matter how little my heart rate increased.  this would be for an evening workout within a few hours after eating meat/fat.  a morning workout would probably be different (assuming i hadn't eaten yet) in terms of water guzzling, but i don't remember bcz i keep changing things. 

i'm lucky that i don't have candida issues, that's not why i gave up carbs in the first place.  so that i'm tolerating  (at least one brand) of raw honey is nice.

[Josh]

That's interesting Ioanna. Similar to the 'Targeted Ketogenic Diet' which Lyle describes. I'm trying something similar to the cyclic one that lyle describes but with more moderate cabs (and protein 0.9g/lb is too much food for me)

I think the inuit must have had top notch sprint fitness on zero carb,but maybe they did have minor adaptions, who knows.

[Ioanna]

That's interesting Ioanna. Similar to the 'Targeted Ketogenic Diet' which Lyle describes. I'm trying something similar to the cyclic one that lyle describes but with more moderate cabs (and protein 0.9g/lb is too much food for me)

I think the inuit must have had top notch sprint fitness on zero carb,but maybe they did have minor adaptions, who knows.

oh, you're right.  i wasn't doing that on purpose, but i see that is targeted... i was thinking that if i still keep my carbs low enough i should stay in ketosis?

how much protein do you usually eat? and what happens if you eat too much?  for me, eating too much protein means my body is heating me up way to much.. which i don't like when that happens during summer or while i'm at work.

the thing is, the workouts i do first thing in the morning (usually weekends) are fasted and those are the best for me. even in college, i didn't eat before our morning practices (4 of them per week), and i did this consciously because i felt better that way.   

[Josh]

I don't know. TBH I haven't got it all worked out yet.

I'm pretty sure if you keep your carbs as they are you will stay in ketosis. Eating 30-50g carb around a workout is exactly what Lyle McDonald recommends for this purpose.

He says you could eat them after a workout as well as before so if you wanted to do it fasted no probs.

He recommends to eat 0.9g protein/lb body weight every day. During the first three weeks of ketosis, eat at least 150g protein if your figure comes to less than this. For me that figure is about 900g fatty lamb meat a day say which is on the high side but not impossible. I've found it hard to eat that much on a daily basis. I just feel like I don't want to eat until I've processed it.

He is talking about standard foods...the books not written for raw paleo. One thing that comes to mind is that eating cooked meat and a lot of fibre it's all moving through the gut quickly so they may not fully digest it compared to a raw eater.

I do feel that this targeted or cyclic stuff is a good way forward for me at the moment.

[HIT_it_RAW]

I did a cooked ketogenic diet for a while and tried the 30-50 grams of carb prior to work out. Didnt work for very intense weightlifting I need more carb or workout intensity has to go down(which is unacceptable). Now i eat ~30 grm of carb a day. On workout days i eat lots of fruit 2 hrs prior to working out and 30-50 grams carbs immediatly prior to the workout.

On a regular day I eat ~130-150 grm prot, ~25-40grm carb, ~180-210 grms fat = ~2200 - 2700 cals
My current bodyweight is 99.5kg@1,78m (220lbs@5ft10in)

So according to lyle i should eat 0.9 x 220 = 198 grms prot. However for every grm carb you can reduce prot somewhat. I dont feel i need more prot.

[wodgina]

I did a cooked ketogenic diet for a while and tried the 30-50 grams of carb prior to work out. Didnt work for very intense weightlifting I need more carb or workout intensity has to go down(which is unacceptable). Now i eat ~30 grm of carb a day. On workout days i eat lots of fruit 2 hrs prior to working out and 30-50 grams carbs immediatly prior to the workout.

On a regular day I eat ~130-150 grm prot, ~25-40grm carb, ~180-210 grms fat = ~2200 - 2700 cals
My current bodyweight is 99.5kg@1,78m (220lbs@5ft10in)

So according to lyle i should eat 0.9 x 220 = 198 grms prot. However for every grm carb you can reduce prot somewhat. I dont feel i need more prot.

Your a big guy. What weight were you when you started?

[HIT_it_RAW]

68kg = 152lbs

[Haai]

How long did it take for you to go from 68 to 99 kilos?

[Josh]

On workout days i eat lots of fruit 2 hrs prior to working out and 30-50 grams carbs immediatly prior to the workout.

Is your digestion ok eating a lot of fruit some days and not others? I tend to think from my experience that it might make me constipated on non-fruit days as my gut has expanded.

[HIT_it_RAW]

How long did it take for you to go from 68 to 99 kilos?

a few years, 3 i think. but it was a experimental progres i was still learning. knowing what i know now i would have done it in 1,5yr. my progress was always steady, than i would learn something which made my gaines skyrocket for a while.

@josh no problems with digestion. i've a long history of constipation but as long as its raw i can digest anything well.