Question about weight-lifting

[svrn]

bruce lee is all the proof you need.

Its my unresearched opinion that denser muscles are better. I always see these weak assholes that think theyr so strong because theyr muscles are full of water from all the creatine they take.

That being said big muscles do mean something (unless they are fake and pumped with creatine or soemthing of the sort). Although its quite rare for a person with huge muscles to be able to do anything like the one finger pullup that persons strength is in that he can probably lift much heavier objects while being worse at bodyweight excercises due to increased bodyweight.

I would personally like to achiever something in between what that one finger pullup guy is doing and strongman type strength. Probably want to lean more towards the one finger pull up guy though.

Its funny because i already look stronger than this guy but im sure im not. also notice how he has very little bodyfat, that also likely contributes to his abilities. Id be willing to bet though that he cant lift very heavy objects.

[papangue]

I agree with you svrn!great post.
La vie aux bout des doigts [Patrick Edlinger]

[Dr. D]

Why do you think fast gains in strength are somehow ideal?  Do you think there are no downsides to such methods, in the long run?

 Tendon strength is a whole topic unto itself, and those training methods have nothing to do with increasing muscle size. 

I wanted to learn on this and read and think for a while.

So, although eccentric trains the negative movement and can use more force, does that change the result? The result being, moving more weight overall. Granted there is less risk of injury as I understand, but strength none-the-less.

I think my first post on this thread may have thrown you off and don't take that as the topic I'm on now. I was confused earlier and now I'm not talking about gaining mass. Quite the contrary. For a while now, I've understood the two to be on opposite ends of the spectrum; when one gains muscle size, their body's energy is NOT being directed towards improving strength at all, and when one is getting stronger, muscle mass is not increasing. As the one finger pull up shows, it's tough to find the limit to strength based on mass.

My question to you is a comparison then of training the positive motion, short, weighted, bursts, that provide strength with little to no mass vs the training of negative motion, non-burst, no weights or weighted eventually(?) that also provide strength with little to no mass.

I know what you mean about tendon strength, but who's to say that the concentric version doesn't also strengthen tendons?

As I understand, any soreness (DOMS) means the muscle is wore out and this usually happens over time. When wore out and broke down it has to grow. As the wiki says on eccentric training, the idea is that you will get sore, but that will go away over time. The alternate that I propose is that with concentric, minimal reps (2 at a time) with breaks in between, doesn't create soreness, you will be able to train more often. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a gym junkie, quite the opposite, I want to be there as little and infrequently as possible. Rather the point of training more freq. is actually so you can get the necessary goal of strength to improve what you need to improve. Same as diet, if one can detox and heal in less time and with less effort, why do the longer more inefficient way?

I don't have enough experience with eccentric training to really make a conclusion that's why I'm just sharing my thoughts and seeing what you know of it. I'm only looking for the most efficient and productive exercise.

Side note: I did negative, slow, pushups. Would static be better than allowing myself to drop? Or is 'better' too vague of a term here?

[cherimoya_kid]

Dude, I myself am just experimenting with all this.  Most of what I say is based on my limited experience, plus some martial arts training, plus internet research. My GUESS is that ANY movement, against resistance, is going to tend to cause increases in size.  By increasing the speed of the movement, the resistance, and the number of reps,  you are creating conditions that favor muscle size growth.  That's my theory.

And as far as moving slowly goes, there are two reasons:

1. Avoiding injury.  Giving yourself longer to adapt to a new stressor or a higher level of stress is going to reduce the chance of injury.

2. Avoiding boredom.  If you spend too much time working out and focusing on working out, you risk getting bored and quitting.

Remember the story of the tortoise and the hare?

[Dr. D]

Dude, I myself am just experimenting with all this.  Most of what I say is based on my limited experience, plus some martial arts training, plus internet research. My GUESS is that ANY movement, against resistance, is going to tend to cause increases in size.  By increasing the speed of the movement, the resistance, and the number of reps,  you are creating conditions that favor muscle size growth.  That's my theory.

Here are the principals that I've gathered from many different places. Increasing reps, will favor muscle growth, to a degree. There are diminishing returns. It depends on the weight being used. Many reps, little weight, doesn't do much for strength or size, as we often see women favoring and not getting anywhere year after year. Many reps medium weight may break down the muscle tissue, but it may not release HGH, which releases after a period of CONTINUAL tension on a muscle. Often people will relieve the tension before their final rep.

Increasing speed of the movement will favor strength: you are training your muscles to use more energy in a shorter amount of time, therefore building the "skill" of strength. It becomes muscle memory, your muscles know that they are meant to exert their force quickly and explosively.

Increasing resistance often favors strength: your body has to cope somehow with the added weight. If you are using less than your maximum, you aren't NEEDING to exert as much force so you never break your limit.

HOWEVER by all these principles, eccentric exercise would lean more towards muscle size rather than strength. So obviously there needs to be exceptions and amendments to each principal. Then again, these principles are based off concentric training. It would almost be... logical... for eccentric to provide the EXACT opposite reaction for each principle. And I guess that's kinda what happens?

[cherimoya_kid]

For the first and third principles, I don't see how isometric OR eccentric training would be different.  As far as the second one goes, maybe it depends on what KIND of strength you want.  You become good at what you do a lot, generally.  If you practice explosive lifts, you will develop explosive power.  If you practice isometric holds, you will develop the ability to hold against heavy resistance.

Maybe.

[Dr. D]

Haha maybe...

ya I can agree with you there. I haven't done a lot of negative training. It's hard for me to get enough weight  haha kidding.

Seriously though, static holds bring in a new realm for me honestly. I do know for Tim ferris' muscle building protocol you hold for 10 seconds on the negative AFTER 8-10 reps that were slow and brought you to failure. That's why I figured going to muscle failure (eccentric or concentric) would build muscle. Not strength. And his muscle protocol works better than anything I've done. And I've done 5x5's and splits and all that other popular crap. I got bored like you said, It just took too much time.

ill experiment with some eccentric and see how I feel. I've been having shoulder and neck pain that could use some strengthening.

[cherimoya_kid]

...I'll experiment with some eccentric and see how I feel....

Let us know how it goes.

[Ioanna]

i want a routine that will keep me strong and free of injuries without added size (i'm female ).  i judge my strength by how many pullups i can (or can't) do. the most pullups i've ever been able to do were during my high school years. i wasn't lifting then (started in college), i was just swimming and my body type was more slender (as opposed to some swimmers who are 'hulga' types ). also, my weight hasn't changed since high school, but incorporating weight training does not help me with pull up abilities. only doing pull ups seems to help with that. so which one is strength? to me it's pull ups, so i want to get back to being able to do them.

so ck's routine is really interesting me. but how many and for how long and how often? anything i can read?

just about everyone is more knowledgeable than me when it comes to this stuff, so all input and advice welcomed!

thanks

[cherimoya_kid]

i want a routine that will keep me strong and free of injuries without added size (i'm female ).  i judge my strength by how many pullups i can (or can't) do. the most pullups i've ever been able to do were during my high school years. i wasn't lifting then (started in college), i was just swimming and my body type was more slender (as opposed to some swimmers who are 'hulga' types ). also, my weight hasn't changed since high school, but incorporating weight training does not help me with pull up abilities. only doing pull ups seems to help with that. so which one is strength? to me it's pull ups, so i want to get back to being able to do them.

so ck's routine is really interesting me. but how many and for how long and how often? anything i can read?

I just hang at half-extension until my arms give out.  I do this about every other day.  I now wear about 25 pounds of extra weight, but I didn't start that until almost a year into the process.

[Dr. D]

I just hang at half-extension until my arms give out.  I do this about every other day.  I now wear about 25 pounds of extra weight, but I didn't start that until almost a year into the process.

Ioanna comes back in a month: "HULGA NEED MOAR WAAIIIT"

[Ioanna]

lol 

[svrn]

do you consume dairy cherimoya?

[cherimoya_kid]

do you consume dairy cherimoya?

Fermented raw grassfed cream. I get the milk and then let it sit at room temp in a dark cupboard for a couple of days. I eat the fermented cream off the top, and discard the rest.

[svrn]

perhaps you should add some more non fermented dairy and see how you feel drinking lots of it. I bet your progress would be much faster. If it doesnt work for you give it up until you find another raw dairy source and see if it works with them. Getting it from a different farmer can make all the difference.

[cherimoya_kid]

perhaps you should add some more non fermented dairy and see how you feel drinking lots of it. I bet your progress would be much faster. If it doesnt work for you give it up until you find another raw dairy source and see if it works with them. Getting it from a different farmer can make all the difference.

I make many poots if I eat raw unfermented dairy.  ROFL

But seriously, I've experimented a lot with raw dairy, and this is the plan that seems to work for me. My producer is all grassfed, they are very serious about it. The quality of the grass makes a difference, though, I realize.

[K-WI]

I agree with you svrn!great post.
La vie aux bout des doigts [Patrick Edlinger]

I love Patrick Edlinger. I think he died recently   

[svrn]

I make many poots if I eat raw unfermented dairy.  ROFL

But seriously, I've experimented a lot with raw dairy, and this is the plan that seems to work for me. My producer is all grassfed, they are very serious about it. The quality of the grass makes a difference, though, I realize.

i get no farts from raw dairy. Only thing that makes me fart is raw veggies.