Author Topic: Danger of Raw Food Products Made from Raw Milk (Yogurt, Cheese, and Butter)  (Read 41782 times)

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Offline monkeysee

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Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently).
This is stated as fact.  I'm haven't read scientific literature on this subject, but I hypothesize that (for argument's sake) a yak stomach used for carrying kefir would not survive as evidence.  A Diet Coke can might not even survive as evidence.


Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults.
So when a hyena chomps down on a lactating emu, it first delicately squeezes the teats dry before tucking in?
Wild animals develop a taste for Happy Meals, if made available (at least, I think bears do), so I don't think it's a matter of choice that they don't drink milk into adulthood.  Technology is not all bad.

Offline raw-al

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Actually, many Palaeos did have access to refrigeration as they were in an Ice Age and could routinely store their foods in the ice to freeze them.As for grocery stores, that is merely a question of convenience as,otherwise, we would have to spend most of our time hunting and gathering. Raw dairy is a whole different category, as it wasn't available in palaeo times in any real extent.
OK understood why don't we just bury this hatchet.
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Al

Offline monkeysee

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...so I don't think it's a matter of choice that they don't drink milk into adulthood.

OK, correction -  it may well be a matter of choice; they may get everything they need with their "regular" diet, such that they don't even think of stealing mother's milk from the babies.  For me, I was looking for healthy, unprocessed, raw, natural, supercalifragilistic food, and I found it in raw dairy from grassfed cows.  It is extremely convenient, it works for me, and I can afford it.  To get a similar quantity of high quality fat etc. from raw meat would cost more and be less convenient, though I'm still looking into that.

Thanks for your time.

Monk

Offline blimpie

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Also, it occurs to me that if the case against dairy is so clear-cut, then we should be able to easily handle any pro-dairy arguments here and it shouldn't be necessary to ban them, not that anyone was planning on doing so, of course.

With a wink and a nod, sure.  ;)
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Offline blimpie

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Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.

Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently). Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults. Thus I fail to see what all these biased pro dairy arguments are doing here.

Do you drive a car? Surely that's not paleolithic. Nor is washing your clothes in a washing machine, storing your food in Ball jars with accompanying lids, and of course, cleaning your dishes with running water. The main reason, and only reason this forum is named raw paleo forum (or raw paleo diet forum as of the recent change), is because this site's creators edited their primal diets to remove all dairy and severely limit vegetable juice, only 2 factors of the primal diet, before creating this forum to pave the way for newcomers interested in raw animal food dieting. The raw paleolithic diet does not resemble the Loren cordain true paleolithic diet in any way other than being dairy free. Even the loren cordain paleolithic diet is known to contain large quantities of both fruit and vegetables (whole, raw), making it vastly different from raw paleo and making raw paleo look more and more like what it is, a slightly modified standard high fat/low carb primal diet.

Aajonus even counsels a primal dieter who will not eat meat for ethical reasons, as an example for my argument. Yet this man is considered a primal dieter on the primal diet by both himself and Aajonus. The modern term raw paleo diet as coined by Geoff and everyone's favorite self-appointed health guru, Vinny Pinto, who was the equivalent of the founding father, was created to branch off and dissociate from their dietary roots the normally dairy-rich primal diet as coined by Aajonus Vonderplanitz. To sum it up, it's complicated, but really we're all alike with different approaches to our raw primal diets. One last point: many people here on this forum will recognize Steffanson's research and other research Geoff has pointed them toward, but we gotta remember that Geoff found his raw diet thanks to Aajonus mainly with the other research only supplementing the original teachings of Aajonus that got him and consequently the rest of us going in the raw meat-based direction.

Sorry guys for the long drawn out reply.
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Offline TylerDurden

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I agree that I came to this diet via Aajonus(though some others came here via the cooked palaeo diet), but I find Aajonus' diet to be quite different from a rawpalaeodiet. The primal diet is way too artificial with too much raw honey, raw nuts and processed stuff like raw coconut cream.  Also, the rawpalaeodiet isn't necessarily low carb - I mean there are rawpalaeos who eat 25 percent plus of their diet in the form of fruits and veg.
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Offline Iguana

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Do you drive a car? Surely that's not paleolithic. Nor is washing your clothes in a washing machine, storing your food in Ball jars with accompanying lids, and of course, cleaning your dishes with running water.

Isn’t this forum about diet? Driving a car and using modern technological devices such as computers and washing machines does not forbid you to eat raw paleo, as far as I know.

On the opposite, would it be ok to eat processed food and drink cow milk because you drive a car and use other modern technological devices?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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You're right Iguana, just because we drive cars doesn't magically spare us from the damage of modern processed foods. It's an irrelevant argument often used by the critics of Paleo diets.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline blimpie

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Isn’t this forum about diet? Driving a car and using modern technological devices such as computers and washing machines does not forbid you to eat raw paleo, as far as I know.

On the opposite, would it be ok to eat processed food and drink cow milk because you drive a car and use other modern technological devices?


This forum is mainly about diet, sure, but not completely. There are plenty of subsections on things other than diet, as well as even Geoff makes posts that are related to all sorts of alternative subject including one of his more recent postings. In fact, it appears less and less about diet, this forum, and more like a forum should be. About COMMUNITY and OPEN COMMUNICATION. And SHARED INTERESTS.

Again, you drive a car, use running water, etc. If you use all those things, then there's no reason to count out without any consideration any completely raw and unprocessed, health-giving foods based on the evolution myth or PURPORTED (not conclusive) dietary habits of a past era's people.

You're right Iguana, just because we drive cars doesn't magically spare us from the damage of modern processed foods. It's an irrelevant argument often used by the critics of Paleo diets.

Exactly, PROCESSED FOODS. Raw milk, more than 4 or 5 raw eggs a day, greater quantities of raw honey, are far from being processed foods.

Also, if raw paleo man (if such an evolutionary concept truly exists) had access to health-giving raw honey, large quantities of eggs, vegetable juicers, unpasteurized dairy including milk and butter, and even raw tomatoes (nightshade), it doesn't take a scientist to know that paleo man would have utilized these foods to his benefit. The concept that these foods would have negatively affected him/harmed him, these raw health-giving foods, is preposterous and based on biased and restrictive thinking.

You're a Primal Dieter! I'm a Primal Dieter! We're all Primal Dieters! Na na na na na, na na na!  :D (There's no guitar playing/rock n roll face)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 05:54:39 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline blimpie

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Also just realized something, we all better stop driving cars, using running water, etc, because it turns out this forum is named:

Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

In other words, lifestyle, as in, technologies and all, are inclusive.  :o
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Offline blimpie

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One last thing:

I agree that I came to this diet via Aajonus(though some others came here via the cooked palaeo diet), but I find Aajonus' diet to be quite different from a rawpalaeodiet. The primal diet is way too artificial with too much raw honey, raw nuts and processed stuff like raw coconut cream.  Also, the rawpalaeodiet isn't necessarily low carb - I mean there are rawpalaeos who eat 25 percent plus of their diet in the form of fruits and veg.

Geoff, how is:

1. raw honey too artificial?
2. occasional raw nuts too artificial?
3. coconut cream "processed" (like saying vegetable juice is "processed," lol) and too artificial?

Also, I know primal dieters who eat plenty of fruits and vegetable juice. One being myself. I'm still primal nevertheless.
Some people would say I'm full of hot air.

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Offline TylerDurden

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One last thing:

Geoff, how is:

1. raw honey too artificial?
2. occasional raw nuts too artificial?
3. coconut cream "processed" (like saying vegetable juice is "processed," lol) and too artificial?

Also, I know primal dieters who eat plenty of fruits and vegetable juice. One being myself. I'm still primal nevertheless.
Most PDers follow AV's advice and hardly eat any fruit and just drink juiced veg, not eating solid veg.

Coconut cream, like veggie juice, is indeed processed. Processing can cause all sorts of problems. I for example have no real issues with solid raw coconuts, but get appalling, nasty stomach aches after eating any raw coconut oil. Raw honeycomb is fine if eaten in small quantities(palaeo peoples would never have been able to eat much honey), but raw honey minus the wax is also a bit too processed. Raw nuts are used too much, given AV always using them in his recipes - nuts contain antinutrients so are not ideal in quantity.
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Offline blimpie

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Most PDers follow AV's advice and hardly eat any fruit and just drink juiced veg, not eating solid veg.

Coconut cream, like veggie juice, is indeed processed. Processing can cause all sorts of problems. I for example have no real issues with solid raw coconuts, but get appalling, nasty stomach aches after eating any raw coconut oil. Raw honeycomb is fine if eaten in small quantities(palaeo peoples would never have been able to eat much honey), but raw honey minus the wax is also a bit too processed. Raw nuts are used too much, given AV always using them in his recipes - nuts contain antinutrients so are not ideal in quantity.

Most raw paleo dieters eat no raw vegetables and minimal fruit (some even go "zero carb").

But that's coconut oil, not coconut cream. Coconut cream is just prechewed and fiber removed coconut meat. It's about as processed as chewing coconut meat counts as processing, in fact, it's even less processed since our mouths add saliva to the mix, the only true difference between coconut meat and cream.

What about the people who have trouble with vegetable fiber? Aajonus says that when we eat whole vegetables, the only portion of the vegetables we can digest is the juice of the vegetables and that our bodies separate that part from whole veggies throwing out the rest in our fecal matter undigested. So in other words, he says veggie juice is essentially just replicating what our body would extract but without the pulp it'd normally have to throw out. Veggie juice from a masticating juicer is no more processed than chewed vegetables, and in fact is less processed because of the lack of saliva in the mix.

When paleo man got a hold of honey, as I've seen the African tribes do on bizarre foods with andrew zimmerman, wouldn't they eat plenty of raw honey and honeycomb each one of them? If you just ransacked a vacant beehive, you're not gonna let any go to waste. Especially if you rarely get to feast like that. Again, that's what the African tribe did on bizarre foods.

Ask most long-term PDers, not just starting noobs, and they'd confirm for ya, we don't eat much raw nuts. That's a myth and misconception. Why? Because most of us have experienced no added benefits to our health eating them, not even for high adrenaline/high hormones (I have plenty and only exercise does the trick). I personally stopped eating nuts at all many many months ago after noticing this. Most PDers would agree. And most PDers who do recipes, only do sauces for meats, like that guy who posted his testimonial on youtube. His sauce was avocado, tomato, cucumber, etc. if I recall correctly. No nuts involved.

What symptoms have you noticed arise when people eat too much unheated honey? I'm hoping you don't ring off a list of genuine detox symptoms, but rather that you say genuine reactiosn to the honey itself as a substance.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 05:59:36 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Also just realized something, we all better stop driving cars, using running water, etc, because it turns out this forum is named:

Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Why would it necessarily be an absolute binary choice of all or nothing? I've seen critics of Paleo and raw eating say this and I can't fathom why anyone would think this. I've never seen any leader in the Paleo movement claim that one can only do Paleo if one does everything 100% like it was done during the Paleolithic. It's not only unnecessary, it's impossible. The criticism is thus irrelevant and one of the most assinine of criticisms I've seen so far. It would be like arguing that someone can't eat low carb unless they eat absolutely 100.00% zero carb (which is probably impossible, as I think there are trace carbs even in meats and fish).

Most raw paleo dieters eat no raw vegetables and minimal fruit (some even go "zero carb").
I would be surprised if that is the case. My guess would be that the majority eat some veggies and a fair amount of fruit.

Does Aajonus never eat coconut water and if so, do you know why?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline blimpie

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Well Phillip, you understand the point I was trying to make, that the whole kangaroo trial for aajonus and the primal diet is absurd, and that we're all of the same bloodline metaphorically speaking regardless of the words used to name this forum and the diet of the majority who use it.

Funny that you brought that up. Actually, Aajonus does drink coconut water. In fact, I served him a glass personally. When offered vegetable juice on the other hand, he refused it. Might have just been the occasion. Either that, or he's starting to turn raw paleo.  ;)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Even mild processing can affect people. Some RVAFers have, for example, had issues with raw, ground meats but not raw, non-minced meats. Juicing veg also causes lots of problems for people - it's been suggested that this is because juicing makes not only the nutrients more bioavailable, but also the antinutrients as well.


And there are plenty of RVAFers who eat lots of fruit. The RZCers are merely a minority. On this forum, there happen tp be mostly low-carbers but the rest of the RVAF diet spectrum eat far higher amounts of fruit and veg.

AV seems to view nuts as a mainstay of his recipes book, but anyway....
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Offline Iguana

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Blimple and all dairy proponents, if you wanna know,  there’s a very simple experiment anyone can do: stop eating any dairy for some months to lose your habituation to it. Then reintroduce it and see what happens.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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I did that actually. When I started milk again I immediatly recovered faster and felt more energetic. I agree that it as absolutely not for everyone but for some it can be a real good wholesome food.
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Haai

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I intend to stop consuming dairy at the end of autumn until late spring, when the quality of milk is much lower.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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I intend to stop consuming dairy at the end of autumn until late spring, when the quality of milk is much lower.
I've been thinking about doing that too. I will store away quite a bit of raw grassfed butter for winter use though. Grass fed butter is packed with minerals and fat soluable vitamins essential for bone/dental health. Off course I coud get those from other foods but butter is a very convienient "all in one" package regarding dental health.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 11:36:26 pm by TylerDurden »
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Iguana

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I did that actually. When I started milk again I immediatly recovered faster and felt more energetic. I agree that it as absolutely not for everyone but for some it can be a real good wholesome food.
How long did you stop eating dairy? Were you eating 100% raw with enough animal food at the time and before? if before, how long before?
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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No I stopped dairy when not eating raw(6 months or so). Shortly after i started eating raw i also started eating raw dairy.
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Haai

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I've been thinking about doing that too. I will store away quite a bit of raw grassfed butter for winter use though. Grass fed butter is packed with minerals and fat soluable vitamins essential for bone/dental health. Off course I coud get those from other foods but butter is a very convienient "all in one" package regarding dental health.

I was also considering storing butter and maybe some homemade cheese for the winter, but I haven't got enough money to buy in bulk. But I'm interested to see if I notice a difference after cutting out the dairy anyway. But I'm not going to cut it out till winter because I like it too much lol
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 02:56:00 am by TylerDurden »
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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homemade kefir cheese hmmm good idea! curious how well it will store..
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Iguana

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No I stopped dairy when not eating raw(6 months or so). Shortly after i started eating raw i also started eating raw dairy.

Ok, I see. You won’t be able to highlight the nuisance of dairy products in such a situation. When we eat cooked food, our immune system is so much saturated with a ceaseless intake of abnormal molecules  that it doesn’t react anymore. It is in a state of  tolerance (like on strike because there’s ways too much work). You’ve  got to get it out of this state of tolerance, and for that you have to eat 100% raw for some time – usually a few months.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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