Bananas

[cliff]

That's still pretty shocking. It sounds like he was eating 30 bananas a day relatively early on in his diet (he eats other foods too, but it sounds like he mostly mono-eats and eats only bananas on days he eats them) and now has to eat many more to meet his needs (and if anything he looks a little more thin now than in the past (correct me if I'm wrong on any of this). That suggests to me that he is absorbing less and less nutrients from the bananas over time, perhaps due to damage to his systems (such as the GI tract). The fact that he brags about it like it were a good sign suggests a high level of self delusion, unless he's exercising WAY more than he used to or something.

70 bananas is probably the most DR has ever eaten in one sitting i.e. not his daily intake.  I doubt the bananas are causing him damage.  DRs problem and probably the problem of any other athlete that tries this diet is that its basically impossible to get enough calories and remain active without supplemental fat/animal nutrition.

His diet isn't that terrible for athletes(when it comes to sticking to raw), it would actually resemble something somewhat respectable if he added in a bit more fat and dense animal foods.

[PaleoPhil]

70 bananas is probably the most DR has ever eaten in one sitting i.e. not his daily intake.

Yes, that's why I corrected myself in my last post above and quoted him saying that he eats up to 70 bananas a day, not daily.

I doubt the bananas are causing him damage.

Doesn't it sound like he's eating more than 30 per day now if he eats up to 70 in a single day? Do you know his average daily intake now?

DRs problem and probably the problem of any other athlete that tries this diet is that its basically impossible to get enough calories and remain active without supplemental fat/animal nutrition.

70 bananas is 7350 calories, which seems extreme for his build even for a single-day intake. Don't you find 70 bananas in a day, or 30 for that matter, to be extreme? Even GS during his fruitarian phase didn't eat more than 3 to 5 bananas a day.

His diet isn't that terrible for athletes(when it comes to sticking to raw),

Extraordinary claims cry out for extraordinary evidence.

it would actually resemble something somewhat respectable if he added in a bit more fat and dense animal foods.

Now I think you're getting closer to the truth.

[p0wer]

70 bananas is 7350 calories, which seems extreme for his build even for a single-day intake. Don't you find 70 bananas in a day, or 30 for that matter, to be extreme? Even GS during his fruitarian phase didn't eat more than 3

And almost 2kg carbs, of which 200+ grams fiber. Not sure how can someone handle this. He's biking 200km/day, so that might explain the calories, but the fiber, no clue about that..

[p0wer]

I can tell you that the cavendish bananas my country exports are freaks and full of chemicals.
Filipinos do not eat cavendish bananas, they are not sold in our local markets.

What about the organic cavendish bananas? I would think these should be fine for eating?

[HIT_it_RAW]

Correction, DurianRider says he eats up to 70 bananas a day:
  "i told em about the banana bible (811) and about this banana cult website and how i eat up to 70 bananas a day." (http://www.30bananasaday.com/profiles/blogs/should-we-say-something)

I read that link. I do agree with durianrider that a diet of juiced green veggies with veggie oil is extremely unhealthy. I'd choose fruitarian over that always!

Your brain needs more fat than that.  Believe me, I tried the low-fat fruitarian diet, and it was slowly killing my brain.  Panic attacks and crippling social anxiety suddenly became a daily problem when I ate that way.

DR already has one of the worst personalities ever. He’s such a bitter person. I suppose you’ve all seen his you tube vids imitating Daniel Vitalis in a childish way.

And almost 2kg carbs, of which 200+ grams fiber. Not sure how can someone handle this. He's biking 200km/day, so that might explain the calories, but the fiber, no clue about that..

7000+ Kcals is indeed not very extreme for a 200km/a day biker. Tour the France guys eat up to 8000-9000 kcal a day. Most of them still loose weight during the tour. AV also did a similar thing biking around the country while being fruitarian. Large amount of raw carbs don’t seem to cause much problems if one burns them constantly through exercise. If one does not exercise all those carbs might trigger fat storage in some and hyperactivity in others. The thin vs the fat carbohydrate eater. The body has two ways to deal with excess carbs burn them or store them.

Fruitarism combined with exercise will sustain relatively good health as long as the body has some reserves to break down to compensate for the lack of nutrients. Active fruitarians look healthy but get thinner and thinner till they hit a point were the body can no longer afford to break down active tissue to supply nutrients. At that time health will deteriorate quickly. Judging from his vids DR has been losing weight steady but still looks rather healthy. I think that he’s very close to the point where his body can no longer meet his needs. The fact that he has to eat more and more is a clear warning. Very soon we will see a vid from dr “I gotta tell you mate you’ve gotta start eating at least 100 bananas a day to sustain health”

200+grams of fibre aday... well I gues he goes to the toilet a lot!

[PaleoPhil]

7000+ Kcals is indeed not very extreme for a 200km/a day biker. Tour the France guys eat up to 8000-9000 kcal a day.

You're right, I found some links with varying figures around that area, such as this one claiming "7,000 to 10,000 calories per day": http://scienceline.org/2008/07/blog-mahan-cheeseburgers/ However, that doesn't necessarily mean DR's diet is healthy for most folks in the long run, of course.

Large amount of raw carbs don’t seem to cause much problems if one burns them constantly through exercise.

DR does have at least a couple of problems which his videos revealed that I don't have handy at the moment, but he of course doesn't admit that they're problems (one is a B12 deficiency that he claims is just as much a problem for meat eaters, but I haven't seen him provide any scientific data that shows this, whereas as there is data showing vegetarians and vegans have higher rates of B12 deficiency-- http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiency, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14656029). I agree with GS and the others on this one, burning off the calories likely helps minimize damage, but 30-70 bananas a day doesn't seem wise (he also eats other foods, like durian, obviously, and lettuce). I don't think extreme diets like those of Tour de France bikers are advisable for either themselves or others in the long run just because they stay lean.

Judging from his vids DR has been losing weight steady but still looks rather healthy.

I don't think he looks all that fantastic, though he looks better than a number of other male 811ers who deteriorated more rapidly. To me he looks worse than he did years ago, and looks can also be deceiving, as Tyler has pointed out on multiple occasions. Lance Armstrong actually looked much better during his Tour days than DR and Lance reportedly ate this:

"In terms of foods, he loves pasta and also seeks whole grains like brown rice and oats, multigrain breads, and lots of vegetables. Protein sources include primarily eggs, fish, poultry, and low-fat dairy products like yogurt. Fat plays important roles in endurance athletics and health, so we don't massively cut his fat intake. Rather, Lance tries to stick with unsaturated fats from olive and canola oils, seeds, nuts, and fish." http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeezer/2005/07/how_to_eat_like.html

It is amazing what the human body can survive on for some years, and it does at least seem to support the common view that humans are more flexible in what they can tolerate than other primates and many mammals.

The fact that he has to eat more and more is a clear warning.

If he is eating more then that is indeed a warning sign, though I don't know that he necessarily is and the figures you shared suggest that his upper intake could just be his intake when doing longer races/training.

200+grams of fibre aday... well I gues he goes to the toilet a lot!

Yes and Doug Graham claimed in a video that it's a good thing because chimps do it. Seems like it could be a problem during races.

[HIT_it_RAW]

However, that doesn't necessarily mean DR's diet is healthy for most folks in the long run, of course.

You’re absolutely right I didn’t meant to imply that. I merely wanted to say that biking 200km a day may require that much cals.

DR does have at least a couple of problems which his videos revealed that I don't have handy at the moment, but he of course doesn't admit that they're problems (one is a B12 deficiency that he claims is just as much a problem for meat eaters, but I haven't seen him provide any scientific data that shows this, whereas as there is data showing vegetarians and vegans have higher rates of B12 deficiency)

lol I didn’t know that. That’s just an insane statement. Meat eaters, especially those that eat (raw) grassfed meat, at least get way more b12 than veggie’s and I think enough. If you eat liver somewhat regularly it’s impossible to get any b-vitamin deficiently. Most people don’t of course.

I agree with GS and the others on this one, burning off the calories likely helps minimize damage, but 30-70 bananas a day doesn't seem wise (he also eats other foods, like durian, obviously, and lettuce). I don't think extreme diets like those of Tour de France bikers are advisable for either themselves or others in the long run just because they stay lean.

Absolutely! Those diets are just for people who like to burn their body out in a few years (called top sport I believe).

I don't think he looks all that fantastic, though he looks better than a number of other male 811ers who deteriorated more rapidly.

He doesn’t look bad.

It is amazing what the human body can survive on for some years, and it does at least seem to support the common view that humans are more flexible in what they can tolerate than other primates and many mammals.

Very amazing indeed! I think it’s not just humans though. Ever seen what people feed their cat, dog, rabbit, guinea pig, rat? Rats especially get the most insane diets for research. Their life must be terrible but most survive (until they are cut open off course).

[PaleoPhil]

You’re absolutely right I didn’t meant to imply that. I merely wanted to say that biking 200km a day may require that much cals.

Right, I didn't mean to imply that you were necessarily saying otherwise.

He doesn’t look bad.

Doesn't he look a tad feminine and overly thin in his face and even overall, and more so than years ago? Not as bad as some of the other 30BAD males, but noticeable. Do you notice that his skin and muscle tone seem different, less healthy- and masculine-looking than that of other males, like Lance Armstrong, for example? It's a relative thing, of course, but there seems to be some noticeable differences from the norm.

Plus, some time ago I saw one of the newer 30BAD forum members point out that one of their male members looked like a concentration camp victim, only for the rest of them to claim that the guy looked great. It would have been shocking if I hadn't already been familiar with their level of fanaticism.

Very amazing indeed! I think it’s not just humans though. Ever seen what people feed their cat, dog, rabbit, guinea pig, rat? Rats especially get the most insane diets for research. Their life must be terrible but most survive (until they are cut open off course).

What I mean is, scientists claim that humans can remain reasonably healthy on a broader range of diets than other primates and many other mammals and hypothesize that this is one of the reasons that we have come to dominate the planet, enabling us to migrate across the globe, adapting to the food available from the local flora and fauna.

[Inger]

Phaleo Phil,
 
did not Armstrong got cancer?
He survived as far as I know, but shows that such a lifestyle is everything else than healthy.
My hubbys brother died a few weeks ago in cancer. He had been a top-bicyclist just like Armstrong, won National WM 2 races (Russia) in hes younger years, but was training a lot until some year ago when he started feel ill.
He eat almost exactly like Armstrong did. "mainstream-healthy".
Sad actually.
He looked quite good though, until he was truly ill.

If I eat bananas, jus a few, I do not feel good at all. They just have so much sugar. I think GS-style Filipino-wild-Bananas might be fine..;-)


Inger

[HIT_it_RAW]

What I mean is, scientists claim that humans can remain reasonably healthy on a broader range of diets than other primates and many other mammals and hypothesize that this is one of the reasons that we have come to dominate the planet, enabling us to migrate across the globe, adapting to the food available from the local flora and fauna.

I think its just the other way round. We started migrating around the planet and adapted to eating other foods. Natural selection would clearly favour those that could adapt to different foods. It fits perfect in the theory of natural selection. Animals have been showed to do the same. When a habitat changes (because of climate change or geological activity for example) those individual animals among a species that were best adapted to the new foods available are favoured. The better adapted animals have better survival changes thus better changes reproducing. Given long enough time the entire species changes to the changed environment. I don’t see why this basic rule of adaptation in the natural selection model would apply different to humans.

[PaleoPhil]

did not Armstrong got cancer?
He survived as far as I know, but shows that such a lifestyle is everything else than healthy.

Exactly, and that supports my point that one can look good while still having health problems.

My point about Lance looking better in some ways than DR wasn't that Lance was necessarily perfectly healthy (not necessarily even after the remission of his cancer) or eating a perfect diet (which I think we can all agree he wasn't), it was only that DR's appearance does not look optimal as compared to other males in certain ways. I'm also of course not saying that that proves anything about DR's health (though we know from what he has shared that he may have at least 2 chronic health issues, one of which he has admitted to). So I'm just sharing that there are certain aspects of his appearance that don't look great to me, despite his claims to super great health and being in super great shape, and wondering if anyone else has noticed this. I know DR has mentioned that lots of people have commented that he looks too thin. He says it's good for an enducance bicyclist, but I've noticed other endurance bicyclists that are not as thin or feminine looking and have what looks like larger muscles with better muscle tone and definition. My guess is that DR would do better in the long run on a raw Paleo diet.

Of course, DR doesn't have the worst appearance in the world either and, as I mentioned, he doesn't look nearly as bad as some other males at 30BAD. It's actually remarkable that he has done as well as he has on such an extreme diet, which is in line with my point on humans being relatively adaptable, at least in the short run, and is suggestive that his burning off of calories through exercise may help, along with other possible factors like the abundant sunshine that he gets with lots of outdoor activity.

My hubbys brother died a few weeks ago in cancer. He had been a top-bicyclist just like Armstrong, won National WM 2 races (Russia) in hes younger years, but was training a lot until some year ago when he started feel ill.

Yes, I suspect that these extreme sports diets may indeed burn people out like Hit-it-raw suggested above.

If I eat bananas, jus a few, I do not feel good at all.

I don't currently fare well on them either, for whatever reason, though I can handle eating one now and then OK. Of course, the fruit fanatics like the 30BADers will never believe you or me on this.

I think its just the other way round. We started migrating around the planet and adapted to eating other foods. Natural selection would clearly favour those that could adapt to different foods.

I think that's included in the common scientific models--that humans were not only more flexible early on, but that they have also adapted to the foods of their habitats. So there's not necessarily any disagreement between your view and the mainstream scientific view here. Indeed, I wrote "adapting to the food available from the local flora and fauna" and that may have included some biological adaptation and there is evidence that it did.

[p0wer]

You're right, I found some links with varying figures around that area, such as this one claiming "7,000 to 10,000 calories per day": http://scienceline.org/2008/07/blog-mahan-cheeseburgers/ However, that doesn't necessarily mean DR's diet is healthy for most folks in the long run, of course.

Well you don't have much choice besides carbs if you're a top athlete, especially if doing something like cycling. And if you're raw, fruits are obviously the best choice for carbs. I've done 200km in one day long before I knew much about how energy works in the body, and it was a pretty bad experience. At 60-70km pretty much all the glycogen is gone, and from there on it's a torture continuing on fat (especially when you're just at the beginning of a huge mountain ). Took me a week to recover from this.

Either way, that 8/1/1 diet is total crap except maybe for top sportists who do need a lot of carbs (at 8000 calories on this diet you still get some 100grams of fat, which is not that bad). For the average guy it's a very inefficient and probably unhealthy, because the body has to work to convert carbs to fat during which process about 30% of the calories are lost. Just notice how they all recommend that you need more calories per day, e.g. 3000 calories when normally with more fat you'd need 2000-2500.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Well you don't have much choice besides carbs if you're a top athlete, especially if doing something like cycling. And if you're raw, fruits are obviously the best choice for carbs. I've done 200km in one day long before I knew much about how energy works in the body, and it was a pretty bad experience. At 60-70km pretty much all the glycogen is gone, and from there on it's a torture continuing on fat (especially when you're just at the beginning of a huge mountain ). Took me a week to recover from this.

Either way, that 8/1/1 diet is total crap except maybe for top sportists who do need a lot of carbs (at 8000 calories on this diet you still get some 100grams of fat, which is not that bad). For the average guy it's a very inefficient and probably unhealthy, because the body has to work to convert carbs to fat during which process about 30% of the calories are lost. Just notice how they all recommend that you need more calories per day, e.g. 3000 calories when normally with more fat you'd need 2000-2500.

It takes time for your body to adapt to using fat as primary fuel source. After that endurance performance won't suffer much if at all. I know that feeling you describe. Before i went RPD i did a cooked ketogenic diet. In my first and second week i went cycling both times were very miserable and hard. Later when my body had adapted I had no issues with endurance exercise. Performance was the same as on carbs. Weight lifting I still cannot do without carbs. The very short intense burst of energy require glycogen.

[p0wer]

It takes time for your body to adapt to using fat as primary fuel source. After that endurance performance won't suffer much if at all. I know that feeling you describe. Before i went RPD i did a cooked ketogenic diet. In my first and second week i went cycling both times were very miserable and hard. Later when my body had adapted I had no issues with endurance exercise. Performance was the same as on carbs. Weight lifting I still cannot do without carbs. The very short intense burst of energy require glycogen.

I haven't tried ketogenic so I don't know, sounds quite interesting but there's very little evidence as to how healthy it is long-term.

[cherimoya_kid]

Either way, that 8/1/1 diet is total crap except maybe for top sportists who do need a lot of carbs (at 8000 calories on this diet you still get some 100grams of fat, which is not that bad).

8/1/1 will slowly destroy your brain. Athlete or not, it's an incredibly dangerous choice.  I am very serious when I say this, I have done the diet, and it did harm that took years to undo. If you argue with this post, I will warn you, then ban you. You are saying positive things about a very dangerous dietary choice, and that 's not acceptable here. I'm letting you know now, in cause you're not just a vegan troll.

[p0wer]

I have never even tried vegetarian/vegan, that was my interpretation of the theory behind it relating to the nutrient ratios and all that (where I didn't even think of the vegan part).

[cliff]

8/1/1 will slowly destroy your brain. Athlete or not, it's an incredibly dangerous choice.  I am very serious when I say this, I have done the diet, and it did harm that took years to undo. If you argue with this post, I will warn you, then ban you. You are saying positive things about a very dangerous dietary choice, and that 's not acceptable here. I'm letting you know now, in cause you're not just a vegan troll.

How does 811 slowly destroy your brain?  What would be wrong with 811 if it included sufficient amount of animal products?

[HIT_it_RAW]

How does 811 slowly destroy your brain?  What would be wrong with 811 if it included sufficient amount of animal products?

Do the math. If you include a minimal amount of animal foods its gonna be more like 6/2/2. At the bare minimum.

[Josh]

8/1/1 will slowly destroy your brain. Athlete or not, it's an incredibly dangerous choice.  I am very serious when I say this, I have done the diet, and it did harm that took years to undo. If you argue with this post, I will warn you, then ban you. You are saying positive things about a very dangerous dietary choice, and that 's not acceptable here. I'm letting you know now, in cause you're not just a vegan troll.

I think that's a bit strong. The poster said it's crap apart from for top athletes. I probably agree it's no good for athletes either, but the poster is clearly not a troll. I don't agree with instincto for example, but I don't agree with creating a climate on the board where people can't talk about the merits of these things. I think you're letting your personal feelings come in too much.

[cliff]

Do the math. If you include a minimal amount of animal foods its gonna be more like 6/2/2. At the bare minimum.

Not really, especially if the diet is very high calorie.  It depends on what animal foods you eat as well.  You could eat a pretty small amount of liver and fish to make up for pretty much every nutritional inadequacy on 811.  Still not sure about eating all that fruit though, it would probably be superior with cooked starches.

[cherimoya_kid]

All right, let me say it clearly.  The problem with 8/1/1 is that the brain damage happens so gradually and silently that you're having panic attacks and avoiding other people long before you realize what has happened to you.  It's not like what zero carb does to some people.  Zero carb leaves your brain intact, and the damage is quite obvious and immediate, usually, (with the exception of kidney stones).

It is dangerous precisely because a diet that damages your brain also damages your judgement about diet. It becomes a vicious cycle, to a certain degree.

It remains to be seen whether p0wer is a troll.

My personal feelings have nothing to do with my thoughts on 8/1/1.  I've seen and experienced firsthand the damage it does.

Another weird thing it does is making you panic unless you are constantly travelling. That's why Dr. Graham hasn't noticed the panic attacks yet.  He travels 11 months out of the year, last I heard.  He has no opportunity to stay in one place long enough for the panic attacks to become apparent.

If you want to become a walking joke, a sad, ridiculous version of yourself, 8/1/1 is one way to get there.

[Josh]

OK, but do we ban discussion of things? Or just mention the bad points?

Unless he's promoting 8 1 1 in every thread, then talk about banning, but he actually said it was crap except for athletes.

I don't necessarily believe that, but I don't think he has crossed any line by talking about it I have to say.

[RawZi]

I haven't tried ketogenic so I don't know, sounds quite interesting but there's very little evidence as to how healthy it is long-term.

    Ketogenic (raw) is wonderful.  I haven't tried it cooked.  I don't think I could.  Raw though, I was in such a different place.  How long would you consider to be long term?  What turned you against it?  I wouldn't have known how wonderful it feels, had I not done it.  Why does it still sound interesting to you, p0wer?

[HIT_it_RAW]

    Ketogenic (raw) is wonderful.  I haven't tried it cooked.  I don't think I could.  Raw though, I was in such a different place.  How long would you consider to be long term?  What turned you against it?  I wouldn't have known how wonderful it feels, had I not done it.  Why does it still sound interesting to you, p0wer?

The wonderfulness stops after a few weeks than you feel normal again. at least i did on a cooked ket diet.

[RawZi]

The wonderfulness stops after a few weeks than you feel normal again. at least i did on a cooked ket diet.

    I've lasted over a year straight on raw ketogenic.  The Bear went for about fifty years straight, and was still it's proponent. P0wer?