Women are weaker these days... grandmas were much stronger.

[sabertooth]

We need a paradigm shift

Womens strength can be found within the matriarchy. Once women abandon the power of the matriarch in order to compete with the patriarchs in the mans world,  then they lose much of their true strength and value. These values are completely lost on most feminist these days. The grandmother in my story was an example of a strong matriarch. She raised twelve children and then took part in the lives of her grand children and manged to live self sufficiently after her husband died until she was in her 90s. She made all the medicines for the family and canned foods for winter and brewed dandelion wine. Everyone in the community relied on her for guidance and they all respected her strength.


He sums up the Ideals of matriarchy fairly well , please listen to what he says, it's profound on many levels.
He talks about finding a balance with the woman. This is at the heart of my own efforts to make peace with my own squaw.

"The patriarch hasn't graduated from the cave he has a caveman mentality."
Russel Means
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKbkJFJCmK0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPh597XMjI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM36A3FbzY4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0AaWxn91E0&feature=related

[goodsamaritan]

My mother in law married my father in law in the USA and had their first child there.
When they were offered migration to the USA, they turned it down and instead went back to Manila.
Why?

Answer: For the sole purpose that both she and her husband wanted more children and in the part of the US where they were, they found it impossible to reach their goal of more children.  They went back to Manila and my mother in law gave birth to a total of 8 children.

Mother in law began her career after after her 4th child and she's got a hell of a swinging career today in her 70s.

She can do 8 kids and career in Manila because of maids. (sorta like additional housewives without sexual involvement)

My idol of a strong grandma.

[Raw Kyle]

I'm confused as to why people seem to be putting value in their lifestyle choice (having lots of kids or not) and not putting value in others.

[sabertooth]

The old man who told me the story about his matriarchal grandmother also told me about his grandfather the boy who at eight years old had already picked out the wife of his children. According to the story the grandfather had some admirable traits, but where he was messed up he was messed up. He had his own set of values that were extremely inflexible and he could often be an insensitive Jerk. Who is to say why people value the things they do or why some people have a carnival of conflicting values such as the ones I often express, I doubt there can be an easy answer.

I once talked to a man who had also had 4 children within 5 years with the woman he loved as I have done and he just called it "Mad Love" . Once you fall in love with building a family life then all other values fall by the way side, nothing else seems as important as it once did, and those who are stricken with this Mad Love can have a hard time understanding why others don't value it as they do.

 Perhaps I miss understand the question?

[goodsamaritan]

I'm confused as to why people seem to be putting value in their lifestyle choice (having lots of kids or not) and not putting value in others.

We are just sharing our OWN hopes and dreams.
Our hope and dreams for our OWN children.

Observing the reality, the fact that fertility rates are down down down.

Fertility rates through the decades in the Philippines:



So as parents, it would be the height of irresponsibility to see data and observation that Pied Piper had taken away all the children and future children; and do nothing for the sake of our own children.

I hope a lot of these women run away, get educated, and become doctors or whatever they dream of being, and the men sit masturbating at home.

Masquerading as women vs men folly. This is classic symptom of anti-children / anti-future mindset.  Something I have to watch out for for my children and warn them about.  Irresponsible parents who do not teach their children positive values will be brainwashed with negative values such as this classic example.

Who is the Pied Piper? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin

[TylerDurden]

The reason for such high birth rates in the past was because most of the children died before puberty. Now, everyone is living longer and surviving to adulthood, so high birth-rates(more than 2.5) are not needed any more.

[Raw Kyle]

Well if we're saying our opinions, mine would be that I see life as an opportunity to do things you want to do. If you want to have children and that is fun or pleasurable for you then I would do it, but it seems to me that most people look at it as a job or responsibility to guarantee the future of human kind. I couldn't care less if there are or are not humans on this planet thousands of years from now and am not going to sacrifice any of my scarce time and energy to put a little brick in the wall for the future of humanity. It just seems redundant, you're born and grow up just to reproduce as much as possible. It's like the life of livestock. Of course if that is what makes the livestock or human most happy then it's a good thing, but I'm 26 and I feel right now I would rather play music, travel, play video games or whatever rather than feed, clothe and nurture an infant all day.

[Raw Kyle]

We are just sharing our OWN hopes and dreams.
Our hope and dreams for our OWN children.

The way I see your posts about this is treating lower fertility rates as a syndrome or disease condition, thus relegating someones potential lifestyle choice as a perversion, weakness or disease symptom.

[goodsamaritan]

The way I see your posts about this is treating lower fertility rates as a syndrome or disease condition, thus relegating someones potential lifestyle choice as a perversion, weakness or disease symptom.

The current fertility rates in highly urbanized cities are far far below replacement.
It is the elephant in the room FACT of dying people, dying population.
Now some people would certainly choose for that to happen for themselves, such as klowcarb, and she WISHES this upon other people.

While I do not wish my dreams on other people. I factly state its for my own children.

Which puts me at a higher moral ground than klowcarb.

You are also on a higher moral ground than klowcarb because you speak of your current dreams for yourself and you don't wish it on others.

klowcarb said:

I hope a lot of these women run away, get educated, and become doctors or whatever they dream of being, and the men sit masturbating at home.

-----------

Fertility rates, why parents should be concerned:

For example: JAPAN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan

Total fertility rate of 1.2 for the entire nation. (2010)

fertility rate for tokyo is 1.02 in 2006

I live in the most highly urbanized city in my country, Manila.  Current fertility rate in Manila to 1.6 ?  And still going down.  It's not far fetched that by 2040 the fertility rate in manila will be the same as Tokyo at 1.00.

My kids are in a clear and present danger say 20 to 30 years from now in their reproductive years.  As a parent, I should be alarmed, I should take action.

Many years I taught my grandmother this FACT of the matter why I have to positively encourage children to get married early and have many children.

It is because times change.  In my grandmother's time, they pestered their children not to get married early, to finish their studies, for career first, family later.

But the pendelum has swung TOO FAR.

The frog has been BOILED TO DEATH.

It is time to push the pendulum back to SANER levels.

And I'll start with my own blood line.

[KD]

says here "Japan faces the same problems that confront urban industrialized societies throughout the world: over-crowded cities and congested highways." Its like 3 people per square inch there. Perhaps its as simple as people not having the extra pod to stash a baby in or they can't even find a spare place above the washing machine to make love on. Even in the mainstream consciousness Japan is seen as having problems in this regard and using them as an example suggests that other places are in far less crisis yet this very link says population has gone down 0.22% last year and less than .5% in 5 years. Worldwide its true the growth RATE goes down but the expected population still increases to obscene projections, its just the rate of increase which is going down in some places and not even in others. The world has increased in population over 4 billion people or almost 5 times the size in the period since they invented photography, so this is hardly a significant decrease and any old ways clearly worked better in times where other rules applied. From a health perspective people are losing the ability to conceive a child naturally but this hardly impacts the eventual success through technologies, perseverance, or inexperienced young people deprived of birth control or common sense or other life goals or under the infulence of religion.

I think in its simplest form. many people here are or were recently in their teens, twenties, and early thirties and understand that making decisions like marriage and children (even with financial security which is not so common these days) is just not something one rushes into or often is even capable of dealing with at that age. This is based on basic observation of other people and honest assment of themselves which obviously would carry on to much younger people. Since people here are actually on a natural diet, are comparatively free of most general social programming and still have hangups about their own abilities to raise children properly I think that is pretty significant. Its certainly easier to say things should be a certain way when in fact they arn't that way.

growing up almost everyone in my lower middle class school came from broken homes. I knew very few people whos parents were still together. Most of these people were 2nd generation. so their parents were born here but were likely products of old world thinking and were one of many neglected children themselves. When I got to college was when there was actually a surprising number of people whos parents were still together. Often times it was because people came from more 'professional' households were their parents were much older when they conceived and likely wanted to have kids after much thought and planning and were not old-school. I remember soccer games and such where the parents were like in their late 20's or early 30's. When I me peoples parents in college they were always in their late 50's or 60's. Anyway, even now most of the people I went to college with are not married even though many are in monogamous relationships and like everyone I went to high school with is on their first or second marriage. its monkey see monkey do with this stuff. There is a natural urge to procreate but there is an intrinsic part of humanity that is about curiosity and experiences. People seek out partners and children to share experiences and to have new ones, not to split off cell fragments and form other amoebas.

[sabertooth]

There is a "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" aspect to my current situation. Raising 4 kids and supporting a wife as well as an expensive dietary practice while on the verge of poverty may seem completely foolish to some. All I can say is that if you could only see for yourselves how the happiness that we experience every day "usually" balances out the stress and responsibility, then you would be able to truly understand what My wife and I are doing in this world. There is this great hope that we share of raising a new type of human being. Her being a crystal soul and me being bright glowing Indigo gives us the real opportunity to usher in the the new age of the Rainbow people.(scoff if you will, but I am fairly serious )

Perhaps I have been corrupted as the Donkey Knight Don Quixote by reading to much into the ideals of nobility and it has skewed my view of reality to the point of making myself ridiculous. I remember reading the Rainbow by D. H. Lawrence, when I was an awkward and nerdy teenager and just totally fallen head over heals for some of his ideas of love and family life that were expressed within the storyline.  

"They knew the intercourse between heaven and earth, sunshine drawn into the breast and bowels, the rain sucked up in the daytime, nakedness that comes under the wind in autumn, showing the birds' nests no longer worth hiding. Their life and inter-relations were such; feeling the pulse and body of the soil, that opened to their furrow for the grain, and became smooth and supple after their ploughing, and clung to their feet with a weight that pulled like desire, lying hard and unresponsive when the crops were to be shorn away." (Chap. 1)

"Was his life nothing? Had he nothing to show, no work? He did not count his work, anyone could have done it. What had he known, but the long, marital embrace with his wife. Curious, that this was what his life amounted to! At any rate, it was something, it was eternal. He would say so to anybody, and be proud of it. He lay with his wife in his arms, and she was still his fulfillment, just the same as ever. And that was the be-all and the end-all. Yes, and he was proud of it."
— D.H. Lawrence (The Rainbow)

"Why, oh why must one grow up, why must one inherit this heavy, numbing responsibility of living an undiscovered life? Out of the nothingness and the undifferentiated mass, to make something of herself! But what? In the obscurity and pathlessness to take a direction! But whither? How take even one step? And yet, how stand still? This was torment indeed, to inherit the responsibility of one’s own life."

She saw in the rainbow the earth's new architecture, the old, brittle corruption of houses and factories swept away, the world built up in a living fabric of Truth, fitting to the over-arching heaven."

[klowcarb]

yep reach useless feminist career goals that no males care about and then get to 30...35...40 realise whats really important (family) and find out they are not fertile. Eggs are in bad shape.

Right, because what men care about is the only thing that is important. Plus, you can adopt if you want.

[klowcarb]

that's mean

It's mean to wish that women get the opportunity to decide what they want?

[klowcarb]

  What you don't realise is that by not having children, you are making way for those individuals/cultures that are having lots of children. One guy recently stated that because Moslems were having far more children while their Western counterparts were refusing to have such children, that eventually Europe and other such areas would become dominated  by Islamic Fundamentalists along with their female-subduing culture. OK, I am as guilty as you in that regard re not having children.

Having lots of children, anyway, does not guarantee a loss of women's rights. For example, I once did some interesting research on polygamous women from the Independent wing of the Mormon Fundamentalists, who routinely have something like 7-8 children each. Such women, despite sharing 1 husband with several other women, benefitted more than a wife in a monogamous marriage, because they were able to share the wife's responsibilities among the other wives, so could hand over child-caring responsibilities to another wife while still pursuing a career etc. Admittedly, this only worked well for the women if there were no more than 2 or 3 wives in the polygamous relationship. More than 3, and the women naturally started to benefit less.

This is true only if I truly cared about the fate of humanity after I am gone, which is not a huge concern for me. I would wish for a smaller, more robust population of paleo eaters.

[klowcarb]

My mother in law married my father in law in the USA and had their first child there.
When they were offered migration to the USA, they turned it down and instead went back to Manila.
Why?

Answer: For the sole purpose that both she and her husband wanted more children and in the part of the US where they were, they found it impossible to reach their goal of more children.  They went back to Manila and my mother in law gave birth to a total of 8 children.

Mother in law began her career after after her 4th child and she's got a hell of a swinging career today in her 70s.

She can do 8 kids and career in Manila because of maids. (sorta like additional housewives without sexual involvement)

My idol of a strong grandma.

Now that is a powerful story of combining motherhood with the mother's wish for something outside just raising children. I could definitely support that.

[TylerDurden]

This is true only if I truly cared about the fate of humanity after I am gone, which is not a huge concern for me. I would wish for a smaller, more robust population of paleo eaters.

But what you'll get is future cultures with high birth-rates and large numbers and all of which will oppress women. But then your view is the same as a former, decadent French king who happily drove France to financial ruin, but who predicted the French Revolution that would thereby result, stating:- "apres moi, le deluge!"("after me, the flood!")

[wodgina]

It's mean to wish that women get the opportunity to decide what they want?

How about if I wrote your post the other way around?

[Raw Kyle]

It's mean to wish that women get the opportunity to decide what they want?

I was referring to you wanting men to stay at home and masturbate or whatever. I'm assuming that's some kind of punishment you're wishing on the entire male population, not sure how else to take it.

[goodsamaritan]

Back on topic



I made a graph of the Philippines Total Fertility Rate per decade.

It's the same deal with other more "advanced" countries.

Our slope is steeper.

The TFR can be explained as a combination of:

- Contraceptive / Abortive Use (which brings down women's health because birth control hormones, IUDs, pills, patches, shots are all injurious)
- Less sexual activity (health related)
- Less probability of conceiving and bringing to term (health related, more fastfood, chemicals in food?)
- Popularity of c-sections (profit motive my the medical industry, incompetence of current women)
- Postponement of marriage to a later age... marrying age was legally raised from 14 to 18 in 1990


Anything else I missed?

[raw-al]

My GF's great grandparents had 23......

Not unusual in Quebec or Newfoundland at the time.

Bearing (pun intended) in mind that life was a bit different back then. Children were considered a necessity for managing chores and they were your pension plan and the church also demanded it.

2 boys is a nice number.

[Raw Kyle]

Anything else I missed?

What about what I said, which is that there are more activities and things to spend money and time on than before, therefore less time and money is spent on raising children.

[goodsamaritan]

Good idea.

And the exorbitant cost of children in an urban setting.

[wodgina]

Expensive in Australia. Average family home is US450 000, and that is in the middle of no where. It's expensive here GS. If you had four kids you would probably have to buy a 700 000 dollar house. We can't afford maids etc

Also our government taxes those who choose to raise their children through having a stay at home mum.

[TylerDurden]

Expensive in Australia. Average family home is US450 000, and that is in the middle of no where. It's expensive here GS. If you had four kids you would probably have to buy a 700 000 dollar house. We can't afford maids etc

Also our government taxes those who choose to raise their children through having a stay at home mum.

You get extra taxes if one spouse doesn't work? That's criminal.

 The German and Austrian system is reversed, with special big tax-breaks if one spouse doesn't work, but huge extra taxes if the 2nd spouse also works, making it pointless for the wife to work, really.

[Brad462]

The less little brats running around, the better...