People call me I'm a fruit for talkng about this stuff but here's Kurt Harris

[wodgina]

He's a doctor you know...heheh

If you keep changing your diet ad neuseam and you still think have constipation or swear you have adrenal exhaustion etc here's a reality check MF's

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-6

real reality check

[wodgina]

I'm thinking of going to cooked paleo, I still love raw fatty meat but would be so much easier eating paleoish cooked.

[TylerDurden]

I agree that there are orthorexics, but there are plenty of people who are forced to go through a dozen different dietary variations and yet genuinely don't recover (some or all of) their health-problems at all, without any "mind-over-matter" issue being involved. I mean there are genetic illnesses which are clearly incurable, and some peoples' health has been so heavily damaged by their life's experiences re bad diet etc. that no possible diet may be able to get rid of their constipation, say. I know someone, for example, who is c.85 years old, and has a nasty "bend" in his spine, due to former accidents etc., which is impacting his colon, so that he gets chronic constipation. Such a person might well benefit  somewhat from diet in other ways, but is unlikely to ever solve his constipation problem via diet(or any other way, given his age).

 I personally had to try a dozen different diets before going rawpalaeo, with most of those diets providing either no benefits at all or very few benefits. Only once I went rawpalaeo did most of my health-problems get solved within 4 months, but it took some years to fully solve all issues. I wouldn't be surprised, though,  given the vast length of time I had such inflammation etc. etc., that I encountered permanent damage of some sort(for example, I still have some very minor heat-intolerance, though not serious any more). Admittedly, though, I haven't felt the need to drastically change my diet for many years, other than very occasional, very short-term RZC trials or such-like for experimental purposes some years back - I just am trying to say that long length of time on unusual diets does not, by itself, imply orthorexia.

As for Kurt Harris's notions, he is simply trying to pander to the masses, so doesn't dare to be too far off the mainstream SAD diets, yet, at the same time, he needs to be slightly different so as to offer something slightly original and different from pizza/junk-food diets. That way, he  keeps attracting more followers.

[TylerDurden]

I'm thinking of going to cooked paleo, I still love raw fatty meat but would be so much easier eating paleoish cooked.

Undoubtedly, eating cooked meats makes things much easier, socially speaking. If you have no real issues with cooked meats at the moment, that's fine. That said, the amount of scientific evidence against heat-created toxins in cooked foods does indicate very strongly that these toxins are directly  implicated in age-related decline, no matter what the general health of a particular individual. Since you are relatively young, right now, it's likely not so important, but when you reach your 40s/50s, you may well increasingly find that going raw slows down the rate of arthritis accretion and other subtle issues. I know a lot of old people who are living much longer, but who complain constantly about their very painful aches and pains. Being able to get 10 percent less pain(?), or perhaps even 90 percent less pain(?), during an era where everyone is living much longer makes a difference to one's enjoyment of life in later years. I would still like to walk rapidly up and down steep inclines at the age of 90+ without feeling the need to be addicted to pain-killers etc.

[wodgina]

Know one knows anything.

How do you know it was all diet related? Your chronic fatigue disappeared when doing fun sports like skiing. People who are seriously physically ill can't go skiing.

[TylerDurden]

Know one knows anything.

How do you know it was all diet related? Your chronic fatigue disappeared when doing fun sports like skiing. People who are seriously physically ill can't go skiing.

You're missing the point. One can indeed be very seriously ill, but suddenly become more vital in specific circumstances, but only for a short time. For example, Tony Robbins once mentioned how a famous classical pianist in his 90s had cripplingly painful arthritis which resulted in his hands being in a clenched position most of the time, but, once he was sat at a piano for a concert, he suddenly became more alive and was able to play the piano in a pain-free state for the duration of the concert only. That was, undoubtedly, due to released endorphins in his brain cancelling out the pain effects for a short time. That is what I suspect I also experienced, given the odd  feel-good "happy" drugged-like feeling I usually felt during such short-term situations.

Homeopathy can also temporarily "cure" symptoms for a short time, without giving permanent relief.


In my own case, skiing doesn't take much out of me anyway, as I have always been an expert skier -skiing also makes use of some muscles far more than others, plus, in those days, I was far more likely to rest every few metres and go schussing straight downhill, which is the easiest type of skiing on the muscles, as you let gravity do most of the work. Also, chronic fatigue is also very variable:- I mean there are those  sufferers who have to lie in bed all day and can barely lift even a single finger, while others just feel moderately tired all the time. I had issues where I couldn't watch TV or read for more than half an hour at a time without being forced to rest/doze for a time, so that was somewhere in the middle. Then, I could still do 10 minutes in the gym before collapsing etc., and had difficulties re concentration/alertness. And my endurance-levels since going rawpalaeo have soared - I mean, I could never have swum to the La Mortola Bay in Italy and back during my times of severe ill-health. Now I do that every holiday with ease, despite the currents there.

[TylerDurden]

I should add that I did dozens of different "positive mental attitude" type courses long before going rawpalaeo. They were virtually all useless. The only one which actually helped a little was a subliminal program which I used as a sort of hypnotic subliminal screensaver - that slightly increased my levels of concentration if I didn't overdo its use, but, since it didn't help to reduce the vast levels of stress-hormones then flooding my system, that slight benefit was not of much use. Which is why I am extremely leery of the "positive mental attitude" field of self-help.

If I were orthorexic, or if it was "all in my mind", anyway, then all cooked foods would cause me immediate so-called "symptoms". But there is a wide variance between the effects of various cooked foods on my body, with some foods taking longer to take effect etc.

[goodsamaritan]

I tried cooked meat paleo for 1 month after 3 months into raw paleo and it sucked real bad.

Kurite had super clear skin on raw paleo.  He stepped down to cooked paleo and his acne flared back.

Cooking is a big hassle:
- cooking gas
- cooking pans
- washing the pans
- plus condiments
- plus recipe preparation

I manage the maids who have to cook for my family.

I swear if we didn't have maids to order around I'd put all my kids on raw paleo diet.

Cooking is such a hassle.

I'm thinking of going to cooked paleo, I still love raw fatty meat but would be so much easier eating paleoish cooked.

If you have to experience it go for it.

[wodgina]

TD I don't think you get the 'mind body connection' it's not 'all in your head' or 'positive thinking'. You can't of listened to the podcast or have trouble with comprehension.

Kurt made it very clear that a big component of poor health it is stress related, stress affects the brain which then affects the body.

Anyway this my last post on the subject, this podcast sums up everything for me. I doubt I will go cooked for long I always go back to raw.

[KD]

by and large people seem more practical/grounded here, but people do generally let their passions/constructs and beliefs of what is some kind of unbelievable diet create huge expectations for that filling gaps in other places. Basically following a perfect diet will never ensure health or even health progress..and often the pursuit of the perfect diet and rationalizing or subverting other issues will inevitably create problems. This is also assuming one is doing even that proper diet for all the million factors that are going on at any given time in the body and not just some idea of what a good diet should be or sounds appealing in a theoretical way.

Orthorexia can be defined a number of ways..one of which will unfairly and inevitably include anyone who is very conscious about their food choices to the extent that it shifts their lifestyle dramatically. The more serious form is when people will obsess over details of their diet to the point where it effects either their health OR their life drastically. That or following a specific program when it clearly to others is not yielding forward progress. This one also can be unfair in the short term I suppose as some things are slow changing.

If one is able to do something entirely extreme but not have it effect their social relationships/interactions/outlook etc...then I guess they can claim that their diet is not creating any weak links in that regard. Seems fairly difficult...

There is no real way one should live I suppose, but to putter around the house all day eating the perfect diet..just to live 10 years longer or to spend that time monastically pain free does not make a whole lot of sense. Life is about experiences. Doesn't mean people have to go to every wine and cheese tasting, but eating alone because 'no one understands' or 'everyone is sick and eats dead food' or always thinking that the world is somehow bad because of cooked foods or something obviously is not a healthy mindset and will effect health on top of happiness.

As for the mind-body thing, the podcast gave a couple of pretty conclusive examples. there also a pretty interesting comment below in regard to aborigines who use some kind of curse that usually results in physical death because of its effect on nerves and assimilation...which was circumvented by medical IVs which avoids internal functioning to absorb foods and liquids.

I think some people can take the mind stuff to an extreme as well (as mentioned with gurus constantly getting cancer and other maladies of which I also have observed/researched), I mean sure some people can get better on the pizza and beer thing, but obviously if there were not other consequences of such things many people we know would be extremely healthy...instead of just healthier than most health obsessed people...heh heh

Kurt to me represents balance and the very far endpoint of medical type mind..which I think is incredibly useful for the vast majority of people in improving their health. I do not see this as some mediocre compromise..but something that will work optimally over many other programs for people already without serious acute symptoms. Once people step into raw or other things..theres a whole lot more stresses and factors and health troubleshooting and all the other issues we are discussing, so its unfair to say everyone following a paleo diet (like Robb Wolf) would automatically be doing better on raw. Unless people absolutely need to take on such things and are willing to pay as much attention to their diet compositions..many other things (even gluten free etc..)are not worth sweating 100% generally. Saying such is not an attack on how useful a proper raw diet can be..or even that the actual possibilities of such are really unknown in terms of benefits. Certainly theres lots of things re: raw food and health that is beyond his purview.

basically what is comes down to is priorities and focusing on which things are most important and which things need work. As long as someone is honestly following that process and honestly tracking progress or lack of..that will inevitably lead them to the right diet..% raw food etc...

[TylerDurden]

TD I don't think you get the 'mind body connection' it's not 'all in your head' or 'positive thinking'. You can't of listened to the podcast or have trouble with comprehension.

Kurt made it very clear that a big component of poor health it is stress related, stress affects the brain which then affects the body.

Anyway this my last post on the subject, this podcast sums up everything for me. I doubt I will go cooked for long I always go back to raw.

I listened to most of the podcast(well 33 minutes) and was duly unimpressed, to put it mildly. I am well aware of Kurt's bogus theories already and have provided a rather  apt explanation of his true motives. As for "stress" affecting the brain, and then the body, again, this is meaningless in situations where people are genuinely ill and need more radical solutions than "feeling good about themselves" or similiar nonsense.  The effect of the brain, like I said before re endorphins, is only limited and is far less effective in conditions of serious ill-health.

[goodsamaritan]

Leaky gut is real and IBS are real and physical.

Just because their healing knowledge is limited and INEPT... they resort to calling the sick orthorexic.

And there are tons of other modalities beyond diet that heal people.

Stress and many other stressors are real, but it's just one aspect.

These people aren't raw paleo dieters, so they are lacking some healing tools with diet.

Kurt Harris is a cooked Paleo Nu guy... I wouldn't bet on COOKED PALEO diet for healing diseases. 

[KD]

these guys are hardly positive-thinking gurus...its less that people are going to heal things with a positive attitude and more that people can sabotage themselves and ignore the important aspects of life and health by depending on hypothesis in diet as some panacea. Most of the examples were anxieties worsening symptoms..and only one (IICR) which someone got better merely by removing those pressures..not that the person created peak health in any respects.

I think most folks here would agree that many other seemingly healthy diets do not go far enough to restore or ensure health (at least in their experiences), but that doesn't mean people will inevitably focus on what is important for them based in reality or that many peoples experiences or symptoms are not possibly psychosomatic or fabricated based on things they read. People across the board seem to often focus on minutiae or ideologies they already vibe with while there are obvious other things which are then hidden or ignored which could fix the situation in some cases. Thats extremely common..but combined with all the diet wars back and forth its a problem for smart people searching for that 'heart of gold' /holy grail or whatever. Too much passion means something else inevitably is neglected..not to mention it being really devastating if those miracles don't come true..or make things worse...

[PaleoPhil]

I don't call you a fruit for that post, Wodgina. It's true that there's more to health and happiness than diet, and perfectionism can undermine both. I did meditation, read Sarno (and was already practicing most of his tips) and also did yoga and other mind-body therapies (as well as pharmaceuticals and OTC remedies) long before I tried a Paleo diet, in part due to the influence of my father, who was into yoga and meditation and other mind-body approaches long before most Americans. In my case, dramatic dietary change (initially in the form of gluten and dairy elimination) was a last resort that took encouragement from my physician to try. I was skeptical that it would help, but it was surprisingly much more effective for me than any other therapy. That doesn't mean that there's no value to meditation or other mind-body medicine. I don't see it as an either-or scenario. I see them all as part of a whole package.

As an interesting contrast, here's what Dr. Eades had to say about orthorexia:

"Are you suffering from orthorexia? I am, and I hope you are too. http://bit.ly/iSBj2l"
On Twitter, 2 May 2011

Here's what he pointed to at http://bit.ly/iSBj2l:

"orthorexia |ôrtho'reksea|
an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy food

Not a medical diagnosis. It’s just now part of the conversation…"
--Jay Parkinson, MD

In fairness, KGH also said he doesn't consider orthorexia to be a medical diagnosis (though that isn't really a concession, because orthorexia is literally not a medical diagnosis) and I agree that some people place unrealistically high expectations on diet. On the other hand, I underestimated the power of dietary change multiple times and I've seen more people underestimate it (including most physicians) than overestimate it. There's much more of a problem of physicians and patients underestimating the efficacy of diet than there is of patients overestimating it.

[goodsamaritan]

some people place unrealistically high expectations on diet

In my healing practice, I see diet as more than 50% of the battle.
So yes I expect a lot from diet, from putting metabolism in overdrive, special food, juices, probiotics, rpd.
Diet change must be #1 for healing.

[PaleoPhil]

I agree, but there is also, sunlight, fresh air, human contact, communing with nature, meditation, physical activity, ....

[Löwenherz]

Cooking is a big hassle:
- cooking gas
- cooking pans
- washing the pans
- plus condiments
- plus recipe preparation
..
Cooking is such a hassle.

And don't forget: EVERYTHING STINKS!

In the meantime I even find the smell of cooked vegetables extremely disgusting, not to talk about cooked animal foods...

Löwenherz

[KD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE&feature=share

[wodgina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE&feature=share

Been posted before, whats the relevance?

[klowcarb]

If I weren't orthorexic, I'd look gross like most women 

[KD]

Been posted before, whats the relevance?

THIS was posted here? haha. Someone had just posted it on another site. Thought it was funny as hell (anyone but Bob wouldn't have been as funny and this show was usually just bad) and totally relevant to both the overactive mind...or I guess the oversimplification of peoples problems.

[Ioanna]

If I weren't orthorexic, I'd look gross like most women 

i suppose you think you are witty or funny, but that is as cruel as your comment against men in another thread.

it is deplorable that you cannot find strength of character, wisdom or physical attributes that combined are 'beauty' in anyone but yourself. 

i am surrounded by beautiful, hard working people that continually motivate me to better myself. they have their way, i have my (raw paleo) way. but that is me, and that is what i attract from the universe into my life.

is the remaining (approx) 96% of the world population gross too? 

[klowcarb]

i suppose you think you are witty or funny, but that is as cruel as your comment against men in another thread.

it is deplorable that you cannot find strength of character, wisdom or physical attributes that combined are 'beauty' in anyone but yourself. 

i am surrounded by beautiful, hard working people that continually motivate me to better myself. they have their way, i have my (raw paleo) way. but that is me, and that is what i attract from the universe into my life.

is the remaining (approx) 96% of the world population gross too? 

I think you lack a sense of humor.