Glycogen on a raw carnivore diet

[wodgina]

It seems the body stores around 2000 calories of the stuff in muscles and the liver.

Anybody know how long it take to replenish glycogen on a diet which includes carbs (including energy drinks) compared to a diet which makes glycogen from protein eg raw carnivore zero carb?

Andrew

[Satya]

Hi Andrew.

I have been pretty low carb for some time now.  I don't workout like an Olympian, but then, I don't think all that repetitive motion day in and out is healthy.  I don't buy into the energy drink business or needing immediate glycogen recovery.  In fact, Art Devany says:

" said it before and I say it again now: filling your muscles with glycogen is nonsense. I have pointed out how gene expression is altered by your activity and your stores of nutrients, among other things. And I have argued that body builders and runners and others who rush to refill their muscle with glycogen right after a work out are actually turning down the training response.

Now, here is an interesting article that measures gene expression and it shows that it is turned down when your muscles contain a lot of glycogen. You reduce the magnitude of the adaptive response to exercise if you are in a hurry, as so many body builders and runners are, to replenish your glycogen stores. They are not thinking at all about gene signaling and adaptation. They are in the linear thinking mode and must reason in a simple (dumb) inventory framework. Use up the glycogen and refill it right away."
http://www.arthurdevany.com/?p=301

I think it has 3 parts.  Damn I hope you continue at least low carb.  You are not fit yet, right?  Isn't that what you said?  Give it time.  I do heavy anaerobic threshold busting workouts about 1-2 hours duration, and I have survived.  They are not long endurance feats, but then, are those really the types of workouts we evolved on?

PS.  I didn't answer your question, but I wish you luck finding answers.  Please report back.

[rawrock2]

I don't workout like an Olympian, but then, I don't think all that repetitive motion day in and out is healthy.  I don't buy into the energy drink business or needing immediate glycogen recovery.

I don't buy into either and I'm a distance runner.  I try to get in 3-4 miles a day and I just follow RAF.  Works for me, I feel fine.  (though I do have rotator cuff issues )

[wodgina]

I don't buy into either and I'm a distance runner.  I try to get in 3-4 miles a day and I just follow RAF.  Works for me, I feel fine.  (though I do have rotator cuff issues )

A 3-4 mile (a day) run would not even make dent your glycogen reserves. So no recovery necessary. On the other hand 32 km run will if run around your anaerobic threshold will fully deplete glycogen reserves, especially day after day. That would be the real test on zero carb raw carnivore diet. Angelo thinks it's not possible I may agree.

[wodgina]

Hi Andrew.

I have been pretty low carb for some time now.  I don't workout like an Olympian, but then, I don't think all that repetitive motion day in and out is healthy.  I don't buy into the energy drink business or needing immediate glycogen recovery.  In fact, Art Devany says:

" said it before and I say it again now: filling your muscles with glycogen is nonsense. I have pointed out how gene expression is altered by your activity and your stores of nutrients, among other things. And I have argued that body builders and runners and others who rush to refill their muscle with glycogen right after a work out are actually turning down the training response.

Now, here is an interesting article that measures gene expression and it shows that it is turned down when your muscles contain a lot of glycogen. You reduce the magnitude of the adaptive response to exercise if you are in a hurry, as so many body builders and runners are, to replenish your glycogen stores. They are not thinking at all about gene signaling and adaptation. They are in the linear thinking mode and must reason in a simple (dumb) inventory framework. Use up the glycogen and refill it right away."
http://www.arthurdevany.com/?p=301

I think it has 3 parts.  Damn I hope you continue at least low carb.  You are not fit yet, right?  Isn't that what you said?  Give it time.  I do heavy anaerobic threshold busting workouts about 1-2 hours duration, and I have survived.  They are not long endurance feats, but then, are those really the types of workouts we evolved on?

PS.  I didn't answer your question, but I wish you luck finding answers.  Please report back.

Hey Satya

you did answer my question, in a way! Usual thinking, using glycogen means replenish glycogen and quickly,according to most athletes. Matbe we can adapt to replenishing our store/ maybe not as quickly but may have added benefits!

I will continue zero carb even if it means I can't race to my full potential...I plan to see it through.

No I'm not fit (in my terms) I have had very low reating heart rate in the past and pushed myself in endurance exercises to, I've always been good at sport especially strength and endurance and I'm not feeling that the moment.

I plan to train both aerobically and anaerobically. Anaerobically I feel I still have a shit load in reserve which I can't wait to release, I've run good 10km times in the past.

[Satya]

I will continue zero carb even if it means I can't race to my full potential...I plan to see it through.

No I'm not fit (in my terms) I have had very low reating heart rate in the past and pushed myself in endurance exercises to, I've always been good at sport especially strength and endurance and I'm not feeling that the moment.

I plan to train both aerobically and anaerobically. Anaerobically I feel I still have a shit load in reserve which I can't wait to release, I've run good 10km times in the past.

Hey Andrew!

Well, you do what you wish, but I for one would be thrilled if you at least gave zero carb a go for awhile, especially since you've spent months doing it now.  You know, I have been very resistant to the idea of zero carb in my life until very recently.  I think we go through stages when accepting new paradigms (much like stages of grief).  I have been stuck in denial about it for some time (in case you didn't notice  ).  But now that I am lowering plant consumption coming into autumn, I am really loving it, and I am breaking those nagging doubts about the viability of it.  Anyway, so now you are like my hero, okay?  Hee hee, no pressure or anything.  Seriously, I think you can be powerful and endure in training zero carb.  And really, there's only one way to find out. 

Andrew, you can win races zero carb!  You can do it!  Believe it!  (Shoot, if I can learn taekwondo in my 40s, and get pretty darn good, then anything is possible.)  If you doubt it for a minute, you won't ever try hard enough to reach your full potential.  At least that is my experience.  I just say, I can ace this ________________.  Whatever it is you fill the blank in with.

And please keep us in on your anaerobic training and how you feel.  Journaling about this sort of training, and any tweaking of this or that will go a long way towards your success.  Can you post resting and training heart rates and stuff like that from time to time?  Best wishes for some good, hard training and racing success! 

[wodgina]

Hey Andrew!

Well, you do what you wish, but I for one would be thrilled if you at least gave zero carb a go for awhile, especially since you've spent months doing it now.  You know, I have been very resistant to the idea of zero carb in my life until very recently.  I think we go through stages when accepting new paradigms (much like stages of grief).  I have been stuck in denial about it for some time (in case you didn't notice  ).  But now that I am lowering plant consumption coming into autumn, I am really loving it, and I am breaking those nagging doubts about the viability of it.  Anyway, so now you are like my hero, okay?  Hee hee, no pressure or anything.  Seriously, I think you can be powerful and endure in training zero carb.  And really, there's only one way to find out. 

Andrew, you can win races zero carb!  You can do it!  Believe it!  (Shoot, if I can learn taekwondo in my 40s, and get pretty darn good, then anything is possible.)  If you doubt it for a minute, you won't ever try hard enough to reach your full potential.  At least that is my experience.  I just say, I can ace this ________________.  Whatever it is you fill the blank in with.

And please keep us in on your anaerobic training and how you feel.  Journaling about this sort of training, and any tweaking of this or that will go a long way towards your success.  Can you post resting and training heart rates and stuff like that from time to time?  Best wishes for some good, hard training and racing success! 

I've been resistent to change as well BIG TIME, I thought that diet was the cure all for everything, I concentrated way to much on diet when in reality I needed to change my life in other ways, eg procrastination/stay fit etc etc. It's bloody hard to change some things and I guess I kinda reached a stage too.

Heehee 'no pressure or anything' yeah it makes sense to me that you can be both powerfull and have stamina on '0' carb. Look at what the inuit could endure.

I believe that recovery time may be a HUGE factor in this zero carb deal. Especially after some of my recent experiences above anerobic threshold. Have a huge training session one day then do nothing for a few days so your glycogen levels can be replenished. This makes sense in terms of killing a woolly mamooth and then feasting for a week.

Still early days and I really don't know what I'm talking about!

[Squall]

I believe that recovery time may be a HUGE factor in this zero carb deal. Especially after some of my recent experiences above anerobic threshold. Have a huge training session one day then do nothing for a few days so your glycogen levels can be replenished. This makes sense in terms of killing a woolly mamooth and then feasting for a week.

Still early days and I really don't know what I'm talking about!

I think you definitely know what you're talking about, lol. I've read some articles that would tend to agree with you. They basically posit that paleolithic man would have been more adapted to short, extremely powerful bursts of energy rather than extremely long, low power trickles (like marathon running). Its far more likely that big game hunting would have followed the former scenario, and most likely not the latter.

Just one comparison between a long-distance runner and a sprinter does it for me. Most sprinters are very well built and seem full of vitality. Marathon runners, by contrast, look kind of meek to me, almost sickly ... and damn skinny.

Anyway, I've read that paleolithic man's exercise regimen consisted of hunting, dancing, and lots of rest in between. I know dancing sounds weird, but some writers believe that it was very common. Maybe good for stress relief, or maybe important for the community's reproduction rate ... who knows.

[wodgina]

 

I think you definitely know what you're talking about, lol. I've read some articles that would tend to agree with you. They basically posit that paleolithic man would have been more adapted to short, extremely powerful bursts of energy rather than extremely long, low power trickles (like marathon running). Its far more likely that big game hunting would have followed the former scenario, and most likely not the latter.

Just one comparison between a long-distance runner and a sprinter does it for me. Most sprinters are very well built and seem full of vitality. Marathon runners, by contrast, look kind of meek to me, almost sickly ... and damn skinny.

Anyway, I've read that paleolithic man's exercise regimen consisted of hunting, dancing, and lots of rest in between. I know dancing sounds weird, but some writers believe that it was very common. Maybe good for stress relief, or maybe important for the community's reproduction rate ... who knows.

Sprinters look better than marathon runners. Marathon runners put a lot of stress on their bodies 42km in just over 2 hours! I doubt our ancestors were putting in those sort of efforts there was no need to.

It seems that humans were generally 'persistence hunters' running or walking within their areobic threshold over long distances to exhaust their prey and yes we can also put in more powerful bursts of energy maybe not as fast as our prey but we can usually win over a greater distance. Ever tried to out run a dog? over a small distance the dog will win but over larger distances the dog will tire.

It's funny why humans dance, I've always wondered what makes me want to get up and dance. Does it give us chance to show off our quality genes to the opposite sex? I don't think so all the time, look at mosh pits and 'men's only tribal dances'

[TylerDurden]

Some acquaintances of mine went to the Yemen and saw the men dancing around, without their women present, while shooting into the air with their rifles - now, I loathe dancing, but this sounds like more my kind of thing!

[Raw Kyle]

Are you sure about outrunning a dog Andrew? I saw on safari shows that wild dogs will chase their prey to exhaustion and I would be very surprised to find a human that could keep up 2/3 of the pace of the dogs for 1/2 as long. They can run at near a human sprint for a day or more.

Killing a woolly mammoth in my mind seems like a long distance running operation. Stab it with spears then follow it for a long time.

[wodgina]

Nah? I was only thinking of domestic dogs. They can out sprint me but over time/distance not a chance!

We are  persistence hunters for sure...hardly any hair, we can run/walk for hours on end, we sweat (so can run through the heat of the day)



 

[Sully]

Hey guys, I think wolves are built for endurance, just like humans. The forward pointing face and the breathing out of the mouth to get more oxygen is pretty similar.

[JustAnotherExplorer]

One of the problems with Dogs and endurance is that they can't sweat.  In order to cool themselves down they need to pant, evaporating water from their tongues.  AFAIK, they are unable to pant while running and need to come to a stop.

[wodgina]

One of the problems with Dogs and endurance is that they can't sweat.  In order to cool themselves down they need to pant, evaporating water from their tongues.  AFAIK, they are unable to pant while running and need to come to a stop.

Yeah that's what I thought. Humans are better endurance runners than dogs and horses, we can easily run further, speed up and slow down without expending too much energy can  and can sweat while running through the heat of the day while animals must stop and pant. We can chase them down until they over heat and and collapse.

http://www.physorg.com/news95954919.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

Sounds cruel but we used to chase down sheep like that on our farm when I was a kid.

[Dan]

From wikipedia ...
"Cursorial hunting is a hunting strategy practised by animals that are much slower over short distances than their quarry but have superior endurance over long distances.

The hunters will pursue at a relatively measured pace a targeted quarry which in response will make short but high energy sprints to escape. Eventually the relentless pursuit will exhaust the quarry allowing it to be brought down by its pursuers.

 
Wolves, hyenas, lungless spiders and humans are all animals that are well adapted to using this hunting strategy."

You've never seen a dog loping in the heat with his tongue hanging out?  If he's breathing, it still helps cool him.
Also, most of our potential prey can also sweat, it's just a matter of how much.  Persistence hunting usually seems to suggest heat, but you can also kill animals if you can get them to run hard enough to sweat in the cold.

Of course, as crappy a runner as I am, that may not get tested very soon.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

Nah? I was only thinking of domestic dogs. They can out sprint me but over time/distance not a chance!

We are  persistence hunters for sure...hardly any hair, we can run/walk for hours on end, we sweat (so can run through the heat of the day)



 

most full size dogs could out-run the best marathon runner ever as long as the weather is cool(more like cold[even if the human ran in a confortable temp range), but if the weather is even remotely warm the human would win because of our sweat glands.
so unless you run a 3hour marathon in hot weather your dogmeat!

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

im very curious on the topic of exercise recovery on a very-lowcarb/zero-carb diet.
i usually partake in HIIT-type training that leaves you unbelievably exhausted after only a 20 min workout, most of the time laying on my back for 15min hardly able to get up. i dont think our ancestors would ever come to that sort of glycogen depletion, save a literal wrestle-for-your-life-with-a-Sabertooth-Tiger situation. i find certain muscles are sore for days, sometime a whole week even when supplementing with carbs. i cant imagine not replenishing with carbs. unless, like someone said, your body will soon adapt to using ketones, and then maybe soreness wouldnt be so severe.

soon ill try zero carb for a period of time, if possible.

maybe doing more of a longer rotation, like HIIT one day, then rest a couple of days, then light exercise like hiking, running for a two days, then one rest day, then HIIT.

[Ioanna]

Hi Andrew,

If you're still here I'm very interested to know where you at present with your diet and recovery. Did you decide to stay on a non-carb regime?  Has your recovery from athletics improved?

Thanks, and look forward to your update

Ioanna

[Josh]

They basically posit that paleolithic man would have been more adapted to short, extremely powerful bursts of energy rather than extremely long, low power trickles (like marathon running). Its far more likely that big game hunting would have followed the former scenario, and most likely not the latter.

Just a speculation...relatively short bursts maybe compare to marathon running, but they would have required pretty good endurance in modern terms, no. At the least, they would have been outdoors and relatively active for hours.