Paleo Diet Links in Germany + Problems with Culture & Religion

[zaidi]

Hallo from Germany,

My name is Zaidi. My family lives in Germany (originally from Pakistan). I have already read about 250+ threads here + Mr. Vonderplanitz essays + Answers from RawPaleoGuy (but I am still a newbie).

Firstly, I want the links to Raw Paleo Diet in Germany (e.g. Discussion Forum + Where to buy pastured Meats etc.)

My family was in Pakistan last week and I got the chance to go for 100% "RAW" Paleo Diet (cold turkey) and I felt really good against my health problems. But the quality of meat was not pastured, but only "BIO" (which means organic in English).

My real problems will start with the return of my family, as there are some Cultural and Religious Values which should be followed then.

Culturally, we have "Joint Family System". This means it is very very difficult to revolt against the Culture, which says eating "RAW" is Taboo, which says Kitchen belongs to MAMA and we have to eat what Mama cooks. I really don't want to go to Mental Hospital, as this is the place where my family will bring me if I tell them that I want to eat "RAW" meat.  

And culture was not enough that religion also becomes problem too. More bad luck, as Muslim family, ONLY "Halal" (Kosher) meat is allowed to enter the home. This is not the end of story, but more bad luck that our Community's Muslim Butcher has the worst quality of meat I have ever seen & I am sure I have seen better Halal meats than this one.

As described above, my family is in Pakistan on visit and I am able to buy the "BIO" (i.e. Organic) Non-Halal meat from the Market and it is 10 times better in taste than the Halal meat from our butcher. Sadly, this party is going to end with return of my family.

So, what to do?

At maximum my family perhaps allow eating of some Raw Shrimps or little bit of Fish in sashimi form (I could not imagine of having raw fish in hands and eating like Eskimos in front of my family like I have done during this week).

Question 1: Is there any guy here who was able to maintain Raw Paleo Diet for longer period of time only upon Raw shrimps/fish?

Question 2: I found Black Tiger Shrimps here in Market, but they were not red in color (i.e. not from sea). Is it ok to eat such shrimps?

Question 3: What is better if I secretly get a chance to eat "Raw lean Meat" VS "Organ Meat" (both from same bad quality Halal meat present in our refrigerator)  ?

Question 4: Is Beef/Mutton really necessary? Mr. Vonderplanitz says that Red meat is necessary for tissues. Have you found this statement to be true?

Question 5: I need Paleo Diet Links in Germany (Discussion Forum + Shopping links in Germany). May be I am able to find Raw Organic Eggs too.

Question 6: I searched for "Fermented Liver Cod Oil" in German language, but have not found any yet. Is it ok to take normal Liver Cod  Oil for time being till I get the fermented one? What is the maximum dose that I could take from it?  

Question 7: In absence of raw Meat & raw Animal fat, is it ok to go for 2nd class oils like Coconut or Palm Oil? Should they be cold pressed ones?

Question 9: Considering my situation, it seems easy to switch to Paleo Diet which is cooked one. Do you really rate cooked paleo diet and recommend it?

Thanks a lot & Tchüß from Germany.

[p0wer]

Hi Zaidi.

Sounds like you'll have some hard time eating this way, that sucks :/ Actually if I think better, I probably wouldn't do it in front of my family either, it's pretty traditional too.

1. I'm mainly eating fish and egg yolks, rarely meat/organs.
5. Check this forum maybe http://www.tierisch.rohkostszene.de/ I don't really know German though so I'm not sure what's going on there. See also this here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/personals/raw-paleo-diet-in-germany/ For eggs, look for freiland (I guess it translates to free range pastured) eggs these are the best. The bio eggs are still somewhat lower quality than these.
6. If you eat fish you don't need cod liver oil
7. Coconut is good (cold pressed), I don't know about palm oil
9. Hm not sure about this, I myself would rather be raw vegetarian or smth similar than eat cooked meat

[PaleoPhil]

Hello, sorry to hear about your quandary.

"Question 1: Is there any guy here who was able to maintain Raw Paleo Diet for longer period of time only upon Raw shrimps/fish?"

That would be a diet seriously deficient in some nutrients. Why are they OK with raw shrimp? That's one of the few foods I cook. I tried raw shrimp and didn't like it at all. Are you thinking of shrimp cocktail, which is cooked shrimp that are chilled? I personally don't know any non-rawists who are OK with raw shrimp.

Would they be OK with you eating home-prepared sashimi and eggs most days or at least some days?

"Question 9: Considering my situation, it seems easy to switch to Paleo Diet which is cooked one. Do you really rate cooked paleo diet and recommend it?"

I found it to be a vast improvement over a standard modern diet for me, with raw Paleo even better.

[eveheart]

I cannot address all your questions, but I have a few comments.

I eat a raw paleo diet, and my main meat is lamb and lamb liver, which I buy from a halal market. I do not go to the nearest halal market, because I find their meat to be of poor quality. Instead, I go to another city with a better quality market. The lamb is naturally grass-fed.

I do not buy beef at the halal market because it is grain-fed beef. If I do buy beef, I get it elsewhere, where they sell grass-fed beef. I also eat wild-caught fish (usually salmon), scallops, and chicken.

I use some coconut oil from the Philippines, buying one that is labeled organic virgin coconut oil.

I have read forums online that discuss whether eating raw meat is halal. The opinion seems to be that halal meat can be eaten raw if it does not injure one's health. I had difficulty digesting cooked foods, and my health suffered, so I conclude that this was not the right way for me to eat. Many problems of my health have been healed by eating RPD, so I am seeing that it is a healthy way for me to eat.

[PaleoPhil]

"The opinion seems to be that halal meat can be eaten raw if it does not injure one's health. I had difficulty digesting cooked foods, and my health suffered, so I conclude that this was not the right way for me to eat."

This gives me an idea. Talk to Muslim clerics until you find one that's OK with eating raw meat and explain your problem. See if you can find one who will support you and talk to your parents. Surely Allah would not want you to be ill? Also, search Muslim history for any references on devout Muslims who ate raw meat. I know that Turks do (see çig köfte, aka Chee kufta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chee_kufta, which reportedly means "raw meat patty"), particularly those of true Turkish ancestry and culture. Maybe there is some prominent Ottoman mufti, imam or sultan in the past who loved raw meat?

[cherimoya_kid]

Those are some excellent suggestions, Phil. Kudos.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks. The question of raw meat in Islamic societies is an interesting one, so I did some more Googling and found the following:

"This day are all things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them..." [Quran, 5:5 http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/5.htm]

Q: I know that Muslims can't eat pork. But what about raw fish or raw meat? Can Muslims [eat] raw meat like sushi or raw kibe steak?

The Quran [specifies] about the danger of eating pork and other meals but not about raw meat like sushi or any other. I would like personal opinion about those meals and what can be the danger if you it them.

A: It is permissible to eat [raw] fish. With regard to [raw] meat from animals, for example, cattle, goat, chicken etc, it is permissible if the animal is made halaal by slaughtering it according to Shariah laws of Zabah.

Was Salaam

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask.pl?q=1027&act=print

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxt-7hOxEJM

[zaidi]

Hi Zaidi.

Sounds like you'll have some hard time eating this way, that sucks :/ Actually if I think better, I probably wouldn't do it in front of my family either, it's pretty traditional too.

1. I'm mainly eating fish and egg yolks, rarely meat/organs.
5. Check this forum maybe http://www.tierisch.rohkostszene.de/ I don't really know German though so I'm not sure what's going on there. See also this here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/personals/raw-paleo-diet-in-germany/ For eggs, look for freiland (I guess it translates to free range pastured) eggs these are the best. The bio eggs are still somewhat lower quality than these.
6. If you eat fish you don't need cod liver oil
7. Coconut is good (cold pressed), I don't know about palm oil
9. Hm not sure about this, I myself would rather be raw vegetarian or smth similar than eat cooked meat

Dear,

A lot of thanks for this valueable contribution. I have found all important links in Germany through your post.

"Freiland" mean only "Free Range" but not pastured.

May I ask why do you eat only "Egg Yolks" and not "Egg White"?

It seems that your diet of fish & eggs & occasionally meat/organs is the same which I will be having in near future due to my situation.

It seems that you get enough Protein through fish, but what about fats? Is "Egg Yolk" enough to provide the required amount of fat? If yes, then how many eggs (/egg yolks) are you eating every day? Are you still consuming coconut oil too?
 

[zaidi]

I cannot address all your questions, but I have a few comments.

I eat a raw paleo diet, and my main meat is lamb and lamb liver, which I buy from a halal market. I do not go to the nearest halal market, because I find their meat to be of poor quality. Instead, I go to another city with a better quality market. The lamb is naturally grass-fed.

I do not buy beef at the halal market because it is grain-fed beef. If I do buy beef, I get it elsewhere, where they sell grass-fed beef. I also eat wild-caught fish (usually salmon), scallops, and chicken.

I use some coconut oil from the Philippines, buying one that is labeled organic virgin coconut oil.

I have read forums online that discuss whether eating raw meat is halal. The opinion seems to be that halal meat can be eaten raw if it does not injure one's health. I had difficulty digesting cooked foods, and my health suffered, so I conclude that this was not the right way for me to eat. Many problems of my health have been healed by eating RPD, so I am seeing that it is a healthy way for me to eat.

This is good suggestion and I am already looking to go in nearby big city in search of better meat (preference is naturally grass fed meat). I don't know why I was only thinking about Beef, and why not lamb meat. After your post, I have realized that there are more chance of success with lamb/goat meat.

I have some serious problems and one week of raw paleo diet was enough to prove me that I am on right track.

[zaidi]

Hello, sorry to hear about your quandary.

"Question 1: Is there any guy here who was able to maintain Raw Paleo Diet for longer period of time only upon Raw shrimps/fish?"

That would be a diet seriously deficient in some nutrients. Why are they OK with raw shrimp? That's one of the few foods I cook. I tried raw shrimp and didn't like it at all. Are you thinking of shrimp cocktail, which is cooked shrimp that are chilled? I personally don't know any non-rawists who are OK with raw shrimp.

Would they be OK with you eating home-prepared sashimi and eggs most days or at least some days?

Raw Shrimps were ok for me as I am able to buy them from nearby shop (they are already cleaned and I only have to wash them which could also be done in the shop). Then there is a big green garden nearby where people often sit and take their meals or snacks. I was planning to have raw shrimps as snacks and thus avoid the family issues. Raw shrimps are small enough to be eaten as Salad and no one noticing it. Sadly, this could not be done with big size fish or raw meat.

Taste is a secondary issue for me while I am suffering from serious health problems and thus eating raw shrimps is not difficult for me.

And thanks a lot about Chee Kufta & Kibe Cru. I want to stay secretly on raw paleo diet for some time before confronting my family. If I attain some good health results, may be it also convince them.  

PS: In Video, she used the soaked Bulgar Wheat. Is is Paleo to soak and use Bulgar?

[p0wer]

May I ask why do you eat only "Egg Yolks" and not "Egg White"?

Depends how perfectionist you are; in egg whites and the placenta there are some anti-nutrients like avidin for example. Avidin has anti-microbial properties, and a side-effect to this is it binds to biotin (possibly to other nutrients too) making it unavailable for absorption. Recently I started eating them too though because I need some extra protein.

It seems that you get enough Protein through fish, but what about fats? Is "Egg Yolk" enough to provide the required amount of fat? If yes, then how many eggs (/egg yolks) are you eating every day? Are you still consuming coconut oil too?

Yes egg yolks are loaded with good fats and along with organ meats (e.g. liver, heart) they have the highest quality protein. I eat 8-10 per day. If you eat fatty fish like salmon that's a good source too. If you can find coconuts that's much better than coconut oil.

[Susan]

Hallo Zaidi,

da du in Deutschland lebst, antworte ich dir mal auf deutsch : Informationen zur Rohkost findet man im  Rohkostwiki. Dort sind eine Reihe von Rohkost-Versendern aufgelistet. Die Firma Orkos liefert u.a. qualitativ hochwertiges Fleisch von Lamm und Wildschwein, außerdem Eier. Wer sich über Rohkost mit anderen austauschen möchte, kann dies in einem Chat tun.

Gruß
Susanne

[goodsamaritan]

Question 1: Is there any guy here who was able to maintain Raw Paleo Diet for longer period of time only upon Raw shrimps/fish?

I have done this plus raw eggs and fruit for 3 months.
It is technically called Wai Diet.

Unless you can find fatty raw fish like blue marlin, you need the eggs for additional fat.
I also ate raw squid with eggs.

I felt good during this time.

You can make it look more civilized with vinegar so it seems like ceviche from their point of view.

[zaidi]

Hallo Zaidi,

da du in Deutschland lebst, antworte ich dir mal auf deutsch : Informationen zur Rohkost findet man im  Rohkostwiki. Dort sind eine Reihe von Rohkost-Versendern aufgelistet. Die Firma Orkos liefert u.a. qualitativ hochwertiges Fleisch von Lamm und Wildschwein, außerdem Eier. Wer sich über Rohkost mit anderen austauschen möchte, kann dies in einem Chat tun.

Gruß
Susanne

Thanks a lot liebe Sussane.

Orkut scheint die beste Fleischqualität zu haben. Aber es ist teuer und ich konnte es sich nicht leisten (zumindest nicht Momentan).

(back to English for other users too)

Some one wrote in this forum that in Europe Lambs & Goats are normally grass partured. Is it correct for Germany too? Have you ever tasted the normal supermarket lamb/goat meat?