Ulcer?

[Wolf]

First, I would like to say that I find it funny that I have probably suffered worse health problems after starting to eat raw than I ever did eating SAD.. first I seemed to have developed either salmonella or e.coli (I was having abdominal pains/cramps after eating and sick-feeling diarrhea for about a week straight, which has never happened to me before) then I think I got a urinary tract infection (burning pain while urinating, eventually finding blood in my urine, which I have never had problems with before) and now I seemed to have developed what I think to be an ulcer (burning/cramping pain in my stomach in the same spot after eating certain things, which has never happened before).

However, all the benefits far outweigh these inconveniences I have suffered.  Increased energy, less sleep needed (and I used to sleep around 10+ hours a day), and most wonderfully, my acne slowly but surely disappearing.. I don't think I will ever go back to a commercial or SAD diet ever again, despite how much I miss the food.

But right now I have a problem.  Everytime I eat certain foods, mostly fruits or bee pollen or honey other than my manuka honey, I experience a burning pain in my stomach, almost immediately after consuming.  Now, lately my diet has mostly comprised of fruits, raw honey, raw milk, raw cheese, and raw grass-fed beef when I can get it.  The problem I've had lately is that the raw 100% grass-fed ground beef I usually got and ate from trader joe's has started to taste nasty to me, and the only raw meat that tastes good to me anymore is a grass-fed top sirloin that is almost always out of stock at my organics store.  Now, I also work at Domino's, a pizza place, so there is a LOT of temptation at work to eat pizza almost everyday.  To prevent this, I have normally been eating two pieces of toast right before work, made from very lightly toasted (like left for no more than a minute in the toaster) ezekiel low sodium bread, smothered in trader joe's organic unsalted peanut butter (the only ingredient on th list is organic dry roasted unblanched valenca peanuts), trader joe's raw organic honey, and sprinkled with organic cinnamon on top.  Now I know this isn't the best of things to eat, and that it is hardly raw, but I think it is a far better substitute than ending up eating pizza at work.  This is what comprised my diet when I first started feeling the pains, but about day or two after the pain started, the meat I like came into stock at my organics store, and I started eating raw beef everyday for a week, and since then I have been eating nearly 100% raw.. the only time I may not have was when I went with my father and grandpa to a restaurant for dinner on father's day, although luckily we went to a place that had fish, and I ate an ahi tuna steak sashimi, which was served to me raw, however I do not know if the soy sause or the wasabi or the ginger that I also ate with it was raw at all.  But it didn't cause me any problems, and other than that I have been eating completely raw, but my stomach is still causing me pain, and I don't know what to do about it, because I have run out of beef and my store wasn't in stock, and I can't get back there until Thursday.  I have been drinking plenty of water (I only drink fiji water, which has a pH of 7.8 ) and trying to avoid acidic foods, but that's just the thing.. I've been looking up which foods are acidic and which are alkaline, and it seems that a lot of the food I eat is actually alkaline, and a lot of the foods that don't bother my stomach are actually acidic, and it's all very confusing, and I don't know what to do.. I also read someone here that said a pitta diet is best for ulcers and stuff, but many of the foods on the allow list are what cause discomfort, and I also know that my digestion can't really be that hot, as my stools come out light-coloured.  I drank raw apple cider vinegar for the passed two days, but I've run out now, and I've also been eating a lot of raw manuka honey which doesn't cause problems, although my regular raw honey and my bee pollen caused the most discomfort.  

So, does anyone know anything that can help with a possible ulcer?  I've had this problem for nearly two weeks now..

[Wolf]

Another thing I have noticed is that my urine has been very yellow lately, and I don't know why.. if I drink only water, shouldn't my urine come out clear?  Or maybe the large amount of fruits I eat has something to do with it?  I get all my fruits organic whenever I can, but not all of them are, I don't know if that would have anything to do with anything, but I mostly eat berries, although I also eat papaya, green grapes, organic fuji apples(they're always organic), and sometimes avocado.

[p0wer]

Very yellow urine could be because of excess vitamin B2. It is nothing to worry about, but you could put everything you eat in one day in a nutrient tracker and check, just to be sure it's the B2.

I don't know much about ulcers, but I'd for sure avoid fruits, especially the more acidic fruits, as well as honey. Or if you have to eat them then mix them with fat, fat is protective to the stomach. Probably it would be best to mainly eat fat and egg yolks/meat/fish until it gets better.

[Wolf]

What is B2 usually found in?  I have to work soon, so I can't really input my whole diet into a nutritional tracker right now..

Also, I just ate an entire green bell pepper (organic) and it hasn't caused my stomach any pain yet.  Bell peppers might not be considered spicy, but my tongue is extremely sensitive to spicy foods, and bell peppers actually taste a little spicy to me.  Or at least green ones do, I haven't really had any of the other colours in a long time.  but I can feel a very slight tingle on my tongue from the pepper.

And now I'm about to try some avacado.  I was thinking of also trying a raw egg yolk, but I'm not sure.. although things like milk, cheese, and beef didn't cause much problems.

[p0wer]

Btw you're probably looking at acidic/alkaline from the wrong point of view, regarding your problem. You should look at the ph foods have before you eat them. So lemons are very acidic, apples, grapes, oranges are all pretty close. Actually most fruits are quite acidic, except avocados I guess. Honey is also acidic. Check the ph table here: http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/01/24/dental-drama-tooth-problems-on-the-raw-diet-part-1/

[Wolf]

Well, avocados are supposed to be less acidic, I would assume less acidic than green bell peppers, but right now I'm feeling discomfort after eating avocado, while the green pepper didn't.  And yeah, many of the acid/alkaline food charts are very different and contradicting.  There's also a lot of them stating that even though you would think that fruits like lemon and lime are highly acidic, that they actually have an alkalizing effect in the body.. so I have no idea what to believe..

[p0wer]

They have alkaline effect because the ash content (the minerals basically) of lemon for example contains more of the 'alkaline' (like calcium, potassium, sodium, etc.) than 'acid' minerals (phosphorus, sulfur, ...).
But this is relevant after the lemon has been digested.. in the meantime it's acidic in your stomach because of the acids it contains, like ascorbic or whatever other acids it has.

[raw-al]

I agree with the above assessments re fruit being generally acidic. Some are more acidic than others and also it depends on whether they are ripe. Unripe are sour usually. Raw veges can be also if eaten in excess.

Yellow urine is OK. The purpose of urine is to empty out that which you don't need. I find that my urine turned yellow if I eat supplements especially vit c which is a function of the dyes used... I think.

Re the eating of pizza etc, we all face that temptation and I know that when I eat it I do not do well.

Honey in Ayurveda is considered heating and thus will cause stomach problems if eaten in excess, however as someone suggested combining it with fat such as butter is an extremely good idea. Also I have found that honey from the mid summer crop is less acidic that the early season stuff.

I suspect that you might consider to use your experience as a guide. If avocados don't work then don't eat them. Any one item in excess will tend to be problematic.

[p0wer]

Bananas seem to support the healing of ulcers, check this out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2447444

[sabertooth]

Giving up fruit and vegtables seemed to completly solve my stomach issues.

Of course I am an extremist who was pre diabetic prior to adapting to low carb so what I am doing may not work for everyone, but still I suggest that people with these type of stomach issues may benefit from the type of paleo I am advocating. I don't even get stomach aches at all, even after eating rotten meat washed down with raw eggs.

This diet works well for many , you may have to work hard to find the right ballence that works for you.

I have found that there is no compromising on my personal low carb experience, the body wont tolerate cheating.

[sabertooth]

I also suggest that all possible trouble foods be eliminated. Even foods that seem benign can still stifle the adaption process and keep you from achieving the benefits that the paleo diet can provide.

Ezekiel bread is bad stuff I have tried it back when I was having trouble handling grains.

Peanuts they are legumes and can cause problems.

Grapes are also questionable.

so is bee pollen

Vinegar can be irritating and could be a problem.

All these non paleo foods must be eliminated in order to rule them out as possible culprits.

[goodsamaritan]

Probiotics.
Overdose on tons of them.
Like this example: http://www.myhealthblog.org/2011/06/24/horrible-stomach-pains-3-women-1-weekend-saved-by-probiotics/

Good varied flora should allow you to digest anything.

[MoonStalkeR]

Your symptoms sound familiar. I recently had to stop eating a type of cheese (pasteurized) that was too acidic for me. I ate it regularly for about 8 months until I started having diarrhea from just about every food besides it. Is the cheese you eat acidic and do you eat it on an empty stomach?

Is the burning pain in your stomach centered around a specific spot (like a hole burning through it)? Last year I had such a problem. It was increasing toward a period spanning about a month until I started eating bread again to absorb gastric acid and protect my stomach. Fruits can be a problem for me, especially if acidic or fermenting in my stomach due to gastroparesis.

I suggest avoiding foods that are difficult to digest, like raw vegetables and cooked meat, which also causes large acid buildup and blood pooling. I would eat raw meat, some form of comforting starch(bread, tubers, grains, maybe banana), raw honey (only diluted in water or food, concentrated sugar and open wounds in stomach may not always be good), and raw fat mixed with food. If you eat fruit, make sure it doesn't taste acidic. Milk is also an option depending on how you handle liquid food.

It's also better to eat bread non-toasted, scratchy or rough foods can increase symptoms.

[MoonStalkeR]

Consider eating whole raw eggs. Egg whites may have soothing effects on your stomach.

[Wolf]

They have alkaline effect because the ash content (the minerals basically) of lemon for example contains more of the 'alkaline' (like calcium, potassium, sodium, etc.) than 'acid' minerals (phosphorus, sulfur, ...).
But this is relevant after the lemon has been digested.. in the meantime it's acidic in your stomach because of the acids it contains, like ascorbic or whatever other acids it has.

Oooh, I guess that makes more sense.. I was thinking that might be the case, but I wasn't sure, I never had to deal with acidic or alkaline foods, I always just ate whatever I wanted and felt like eating, and this all a bit confusing.

I agree with the above assessments re fruit being generally acidic. Some are more acidic than others and also it depends on whether they are ripe. Unripe are sour usually. Raw veges can be also if eaten in excess.

Yellow urine is OK. The purpose of urine is to empty out that which you don't need. I find that my urine turned yellow if I eat supplements especially vit c which is a function of the dyes used... I think.

Re the eating of pizza etc, we all face that temptation and I know that when I eat it I do not do well.

Honey in Ayurveda is considered heating and thus will cause stomach problems if eaten in excess, however as someone suggested combining it with fat such as butter is an extremely good idea. Also I have found that honey from the mid summer crop is less acidic that the early season stuff.

I suspect that you might consider to use your experience as a guide. If avocados don't work then don't eat them. Any one item in excess will tend to be problematic.

I don't like eating unripe fruit, I prefer all my fruits to taste sweet and I don't like them sour.. the only problem is that fruits have probably been my main source of food lately, and if I completely eliminate fruits, I really won't have any raw foods to eat anymore except eggs, and I don't think I can live on just eggs for a week.

I don't take supplements, but I eat a lot of fruit, so I probably have an excess of vitamin C anyways.

and I don't like to eat pizza, even though it tastes amazing, it always makes me feel sick and then I break out worse and I get tired and feel like crap.

I'm not sure what season my honey is from, for all I know it could be over a year old from who knows what season.. but as far as combining honey with butter, aren't you supposed to keep different food separate for digestion?  I always try to eat only one thing at a time, and eat it all in order of easiest to digest to hardest to digest and all that.. so wouldn't mixing honey with butter cause problems?

and yeah, I'm thinking I might just have to find out what I can eat by trial and error.

Bananas seem to support the healing of ulcers, check this out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2447444

Yeah, I heard about bananas helping with ulcers, I just haven't gotten around to buying any bananas.. but that study was done for banana powder, not regular raw whole bananas, so would it have the same effect?  I don't know where to buy banana powder..

Giving up fruit and vegtables seemed to completly solve my stomach issues.

Of course I am an extremist who was pre diabetic prior to adapting to low carb so what I am doing may not work for everyone, but still I suggest that people with these type of stomach issues may benefit from the type of paleo I am advocating. I don't even get stomach aches at all, even after eating rotten meat washed down with raw eggs.

This diet works well for many , you may have to work hard to find the right ballence that works for you.

I have found that there is no compromising on my personal low carb experience, the body wont tolerate cheating.

Rotten meat and raw eggs don't give me a stomach ache either, but the problem with those is my taste buds.. can't quite get the rotten meat taste or the slimy eggwhite texture passed my gag reflex.  I don't eat veggies anyways, but I do eat a lot of fruit, and right now I'm a bit low on my raw foods, and fruit's pretty much the only thing I got right now.

I also suggest that all possible trouble foods be eliminated. Even foods that seem benign can still stifle the adaption process and keep you from achieving the benefits that the paleo diet can provide.

Ezekiel bread is bad stuff I have tried it back when I was having trouble handling grains.

Peanuts they are legumes and can cause problems.

Grapes are also questionable.

so is bee pollen

Vinegar can be irritating and could be a problem.

All these non paleo foods must be eliminated in order to rule them out as possible culprits.

I know ezekiel bread and peanut butter aren't good, but I'm sure it's a heck of a lot better than pizza.. and I haven't been eating toast anymore since a couple days after feeling these stomach discomforts.

Grapes I eat just because I love the taste, but I just found out today that they gave me diarrhea, so I might back off on those a bit.

I don't see how bee pollen should be questionable though, if honey is paleo, then bee pollen must certainly also be paleo.

the apple cider vinegar is what helped me through the e.coli/salmonella/whatever it was as well as helped cure my urine infection, so I'm apt to believe it would help me with this as well.  It doesn't seem to have any negative effects in any case, and I only drink it when I get sick, so it certainly wasn't the cause, and I didn't drink it until I'd already been feeling this way for over a week, so I'm just trying to see if it will help.  I ran out though, so I can't drink it anymore anyways until I can get to the store on Thursday and buy more.

Probiotics.
Overdose on tons of them.
Like this example: http://www.myhealthblog.org/2011/06/24/horrible-stomach-pains-3-women-1-weekend-saved-by-probiotics/

Good varied flora should allow you to digest anything.

I don't really trust anything that comes in pill form, no matter what the source, but I have some rather rotten meat thats been sitting in my room for over a week now, I'm sure it's pretty good probiotic by now and would do me some good if I could just get passed my gag reflex... 

Your symptoms sound familiar. I recently had to stop eating a type of cheese (pasteurized) that was too acidic for me. I ate it regularly for about 8 months until I started having diarrhea from just about every food besides it. Is the cheese you eat acidic and do you eat it on an empty stomach?

Is the burning pain in your stomach centered around a specific spot (like a hole burning through it)? Last year I had such a problem. It was increasing toward a period spanning about a month until I started eating bread again to absorb gastric acid and protect my stomach. Fruits can be a problem for me, especially if acidic or fermenting in my stomach due to gastroparesis.

I suggest avoiding foods that are difficult to digest, like raw vegetables and cooked meat, which also causes large acid buildup and blood pooling. I would eat raw meat, some form of comforting starch(bread, tubers, grains, maybe banana), raw honey (only diluted in water or food, concentrated sugar and open wounds in stomach may not always be good), and raw fat mixed with food. If you eat fruit, make sure it doesn't taste acidic. Milk is also an option depending on how you handle liquid food.

It's also better to eat bread non-toasted, scratchy or rough foods can increase symptoms.

I do actually eat cheese everyday, although it is unpasteurized, but I have no idea how to tell if it's acidic or not.. all I know is that when I eat it, it doesn't make my stomach hurt.

The pain in my stomach is always in the same spot.  I don't eat vegetables, whether raw or cooked, and I don't often eat my meat cooked either, as I prefer it to be raw.  Honey I have been avoiding, other than my raw manuka honey which doesn't seem to cause me any discomfort, but also doesn't seem to be helping either.  I don't have any good source of raw fats other than raw dairy, which I drink a half gallon of raw milk one day a week usually.. as for bread, the only good bread i have is my low sodium ezekiel bread, which I stopped eating soon after these pains started.. and I only toasted it enough for it to become slightly stiff, not even enough for it to change colour at all.

Consider eating whole raw eggs. Egg whites may have soothing effects on your stomach.

My problem with raw egg whites is that I can't stand the slimey texture of it, grosses me out and makes me gag and unable to swallow it..

[Wolf]

And at least for now, a taste of cinnamon powder seems to act well as a quick, although temporary, pain relief for whenever I'm having these stomach pains.. dunno why.

[raw-al]

Hi..
I suffer from mouth ulcers twice every month. 
I usually apply glycerin or gel on it and it heals it temporarily and it comes again after a certain period of time. I just want to know the root of this ulcers, the main cause behind it. i heard that improper digestion of food causes mouth ulcers.. is this true..?  
Does anyone knows the main reason for these mouth ulcers..   

I deeply sympathize. I used to suffer from them all the time.

As a child I was pretty healthy, then when I finished high school, I went to work for the railroad to raise money for post secondary. I had to work shift work which totally screwed me up healthwise. Sometime around then, I started to get cankors (mouth sores/ulcers). When I went to school the pressure combined with disgusting diet (Cheeseburgers from Mickee Dees ) brought them on big time. At some point I noticed that fruit juice seemed to really bring them on. So I stopped that. Then I noticed that a big test would bring them on. Just had to suffer through that. Then when I was in my mid thirties I discovered Ayurveda which explained it all.

Avoid processed sugar, candy, chocolate, especially white sugar, like the plague
Avoid salt like the plague, not even hidden in foods that you prepare
Avoid alcohol like the plague, especially wine and especially, especially red wine
Avoid garlic and onions
Avoid fruit or fruit juices. Especially citrus.
Avoid spicy (hot foods)
Avoid cooked food
For the mental part... learn meditation or something to reduce stress effects. People with an overabundance of Pitta tend to bit a bit angry or have tempers.... I am the exception......... just kidding. They also tend to be excellent speakers

Now since things are never perfect in this world and pressures to break these rules abound, if you do transgress then have some sort of raw fat to recoat the GI tract. Whatever you like, butter, meat fat, avocado may help. If the taste is too strong, mix raw honey with it. Eat it when you feel like it. If you start to feel like your mouth feels a bit sour have some. Make absolutely sure that the honey and fat are raw, because cooked or pasteurized or heated honey will cause the problem to flare up

Here is the Ayurvedic explanation. It is not necessary to understand it completely.

Ay. says that your body and the universe are made up of various qualities or concepts called doshas. Pitta dosha is concerned with heat/digestion/metabolizing. We all need it but not too much. You obviously have an overabundance and the heat flows uphill (from the seat of Pitta which is the stomach essentially) and in your case manifests as mouth ulcers. Some people it might manifest as goiters, premature thinning or grey hair, headaches, sensitive eyes, raspy voice, toothaches, bad breath and any issue that shows up as blood as in the faeces or urine. (obviously menses is a normal process) So the cure is to reduce the heat in the stomach. I used to know a girl who had such an abundance of Pitta that she had all of her perfectly good teeth removed to quell the pain. She loved drinking a sour juice and would not give it up.

Having said all this about that, I have found that raw meat, butter, dairy, honey and juice as part of the Primal diet (Aajonus Vonderplanitz) does the job for me.

Raw meat seems to pacify all the doshas. Dairy pacifies Pitta. The juice acts like a mild, natural cleaner.

The reason glycerine or gels work for you is that is neutralizes the pitta sourness and acts like a temporary bandaid over the open wound of a canker. Problem is who knows that that stuff does when it travels through the system.

One thing I am curious about is that you say you get them twice a month.... Do you know what you ate or did in the 24-48 hours prior? Was it associated with menses?

[stoneforest]

My friend,
i have had a difficult time adjusting to my raw diet as well. and i have had to make many adjustments because of lack of tolerance to certain foods including moderate amounts of beef.

i definitely felt the same abdominal pain with raw honey and bee pollen.

lately, what appears to work best for me is raw salmon, raw beef fat, and one raw egg. this appears to be pretty light on my stomach. i dont know if its the alkalinity/acidity factor contributing to this or not. in accord with what our Sabertooth states, i believe it's atleast partially due to the fact thaty its very low carb.

i believe some of us must sometimes simplify our diet and later add different foods one by one to see what we can and can not tolerate.
good luck

[raw-al]

The alkalinity/acidity appears to be a factor with me also.

There are many ways to define what the issues are with different foods. I am still struggling a bit to get my brain wrapped around carb definitions. Laziness I suppose on my part. It's good to have a wide knowledge base from which to look at problems.

Simplification is a good idea.

[Dorothy]

Hi Wolf. Remember when I talked about quark? Well, I can't digest raw milk but when I ferment it it's good for me. It's almost impossible to find a simple description of how to ferment raw milk into quark, quark cheese, fermented whey and fermented butter on the internet - but I would talk you through it if you would like to make those things to get your probiotics. They are all quite soothing generally and would be a great way to compete with the desire for pizza. When you are filled up with yummy milkshakes you won't even be tempted. Let me know if it interests you otherwise I won't go through all the trouble to describe the whole thing as it would take some time for me. Willing of course to do it if you would like to give it a try though.

Honey is a tough one because it's so darn hard to find decent honey and pollen. If it's heated even a little it's just not the same thing and it's hard to stop at just a tiny bit. If you were reaching your hand into an active bee hive you probably wouldn't be eating much. 

Sweets and carbos can be such a temptation. Fruits I can't do without some fat to buffer them. Peanut butter has the most funguses of any food to my knowledge. It's one of the very top allergenic foods there is. Perhaps you could make some almond butter instead??? You would be surprised though how fermented milk cheese for carbos with some berries for your sugar fix, eggs yolks for the fat fix and whey for the protein can handle those cravings. Leave out the honey. Just too stimulating to the carb desires. If you can eat your fruits with the fat you won't desire as many as often because your blood sugars will be more stabilized.

If you need to eat the bread put on butter instead of honey or at least put butter and honey - cinnamon on top of that to stabilize the blood sugars. Cinnamon helps to heal the adrenal glands.

Good luck to you with your healing.

[PaleoPhil]

Dorothy, which is the better probiotic, quark or kefir? Do either help with constipation?

[Dorothy]

Phil - quark makes my bowels move easily. I've been in a quark love affair for a while now - especially since eating raw meat. I find quark balances the meat nicely and makes my bowel movements quite comfortable. On all raw foods without meat and mostly vegetables having quark would create almost too fast and furious of a "cleansing". ;-)  I have often thought that perhaps quark is the reason that I have found the conversion to eating raw meat so easy for me.

I believe which ferment is better completely depends on a person's individual gut flora and what is needed. Kefir never has appealed to me. It tastes and feels terrible to me - both water and milk grains. I bet it's because my body doesn't want those bacteria. Kefir is incredibly easy so I wished I liked it more. Yogurt is another ferment from milk that sometimes is just right and other times I couldn't care less about it. I can go months without any and then suddenly really want kombucha real bad and drink it like it's going out of style. It's like that with all my ferments. Good thing most of them last so well when cared for properly. I also find that other people have strong reactions and preferences. Usually though - there is one out of all the ferments that "hits home" and a big smile goes across the person's face.

One of the reasons I love trying all sorts of ferments so much is because you never know which one is going to light things up for yourself or someone else at any given moment. I love opening the cupboard of the fridge and having a choice. It seems for me to go in big waves - a half a year I want this, the next half a year I want that. I imagine that it just has to be very individual based upon my experience.

Do you have access to good grass-fed raw milk Phil? It's definitely worth trying both in my opinion. Quark is the easier to try first because you don't need to buy any grains and if it works and you like it, then you are handled and don't need to nurse grains. If someone will give you some kefir grains then the kefir is easier to try first.

[Wolf]

I haven't had any problems with my stomach lately anymore.. so I think it's gone, whatever it was.  but I've been eating a lot healthier and more raw since then.

Quark would be awesome to learn how to make.  I just have to be careful with my food because my dad already says that my food stinks and I don't want him to find out I am eating raw, or I'll probably get kicked out.  So I would probably have to make the quark in my room and bathroom instead of in the kitchen.  Although I'm sure raw dairy would be more acceptable to him than raw meat and eggs, so I dunno.  if you really don't mind explaining how to make it, I'd love to learn how. 

I don't have much problems with bowel movements though, except that I think some of my fruits don't quite fully digest.  Or either the red stuff that comes out is watermelon or meat.. but I don't think the apples I eat digest very well, either.  So I hope it is just watermelon.

[Dorothy]

Hmmmm. Quark on a super small scale made in a bathroom or bedroom without refrigeration. I think it could be done, but it would have to be made frequently. Where do you keep your milk now? If you get raw milk in one of those plastic containers and leave it in your room for more than 24 hours without refrigeration then you probably already are drinking clabbered milk which is a form of fermentation...... but ..... those plastic containers are deadly. I only once left my milk in one of those containers refrigerated for 2 days and when I went to make my butter from the cream it stank really bad of plastic. My dog would not eat it and neither would I. I usually take my milk out of those soft plastic jugs immediately after picking it up and get it into a proper pot to start fermentation. Glass would also be good - just like in the old days when they delivered your fresh raw milk to the front door in glass bottles and picked them up the next day. That milk was just fine before refrigeration - so if you did something similar to how it was done in the old days it would work too. Just take out a small amount of milk and get it into glass and make believe you are your own milkman getting fresh milk frequently. Our food supply has deteriorated terribly so it is now more complicated. Where do you get your milk? How often? How long is it in those plastic containers? If your milk stays in those plastic containers for much of any time at all I would throw away the cream that comes to the top because the plastic seems to conglomerate primarily in the fat. If it's goat milk then it cannot be used in the plastic because goat milk is naturally homogenized where the fat stays mixed throughout and then you can't get the plastic out of it.

Have you ever tried kefir Wolf? You can make that into a form of cheese as well. That would be easier to explain to your Dad if one day he happened to see what you were doing. Letting milk sour into cultured buttermilk as your concentrated culture to make quark is a bit more out of the norm than putting some kefir grains into milk and letting that become something like yogurt that he is familiar with. That way if you decide not to make your ferment for awhile you could leave the grains in the refrigerator in stasis until you start again telling your Dad that they are just like yogurt culture. Making cultured buttermilk takes up to a couple of weeks. You do it once and then you always have the culture. I just don't know how the culture will fair for any length of time without refrigeration. If you make quark every few days it would probably be fine, but if you have to wait weeks or months inbetween batches like I do, I'm just not sure how it will be left out on your counter. It's a big undertaking without knowing.

I have a milk delivery coming in this Thursday. What I will do is take some of my buttermilk culture, add some milk and leave it out on the counter to see how long the new cultured buttermilk can sit out without smelling bad or getting too sour to use or otherwise going wrong. My cultured buttermilk has lasted nicely for half a year without use in my fridge - let's see how it does on a counter like it would have been before refrigeration.

In the meantime - do you know anyone with kefir grains? A friend sent me some in the mail once. It was in the heat of the Texas summer and somehow they still survived. They are rugged little buggers. Most places that sell them won't ship in summer though. If you have a craig's list or freecycle  or Weston A. Price group in your area you can post requesting some.

[Wolf]

It doesn't have to be super small scale, but like maybe a quarter gallon to a half gallon of milk being used?  or is that super small scale?  lol.

I keep my milk in the fridge, I mean drinking milk raw isn't as big of a deal as eating meat raw.  Although I usually drink my milk in one day when I buy it, because I don't like how it tastes when it goes sour.. though maybe that's just the plastic taste?  They do come in plastic containers, but if I'm not keeping it in the fridge I try to drink it all as fast as I can.  I could easily transfer some to glass jars though, I have glass jars saved up.  I could also keep the quark in the fridge too, as long as it doesn't stink enough to make my dad notice and go through trying to find out what the smell is.

I tried some Kefir, Qephor brand made by the people who I get the raw milk from (Organic Pastures) and I don't really like it at all.  It just tastes like sour milk to me, I've never seen a Kefir that looked the consistency of yogurt.. Although I've looked and tried to find a raw yogurt, but I can't find any.  I've never really eaten the regular pasteurized yogurt either though, but I'm sure it tastes a heck of a lot better than Kefir. 

Are the Kefir grains needed to make quark?  I don't really want Kefir and I don't like Kefir, it's too sour for me.