Tribal hierachy

[TylerDurden]

I don't think there was any promotion of vegan diets, as such, in past posts?

Anyway, what is this "energy body" stuff? Never heard of it, even when I was a vegan, all those years ago.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't think there was any promotion of vegan diets, as such, in past posts?

Yeah, I didn't notice Dorothy promoting veganism either and I'm not getting why the very harsh response. Seems like overkill. I thought Dorothy was already eating raw eggs and fish and the only technically non-Paleo thing I'm aware of her eating is raw dairy, which multiple people here eat and qualifies as "Primal". I too have witnessed that vegan and vegetarian diets tend to promote anxiety and raw animal foods tend to promote calmness and confidence, but nobody likes being called flighty, anxious, and so on, whether or not the tendency is real. If raw Paleo is calming, which it does seem to be, then one just has to wait for it to have its calming effect.

Cherimoya, I know you had bad experiences with vegan/vegetarian diets and with vegan/vegetarian trolls, so your suspicion and low tolerance for such is understandable, but Dorothy talked positively about eggs and fish at the Giveittomeraw forum and was attacked for it there, so she's not a vegan/vegetarian troll.

[KD]

hmm. The original comment I just saw as VERY direct and perhaps agressive and sort of like talking around an issue as if there was no real person there.

I know I have a similar posting style sometimes.

This energy thing is I think one of those hotbutton issues that many ex-veg and current veg folks get particularly passioniate about because it deals with unknowns.

I think in particular this whole idea of rationalizing physical reactions or dismissal of physical evidence through spiritual constructs does not seem to be very RPF to put it lightly. This is very common in veganism and seems to rub 'non or ex-believers' the wrong way. Part of this probably has to do with some kind of empathy or just plain empirical backlash to what is believed to be misplaced or incorrect ideas. Also part of it might be some anxieties over what really IS right. I know its some percentage of both for me when my long term vegan friends even acknowledge that I am healthier than I was. Yet in order to believe that they have to think i'm robbing the souls of animals or else it makes no sense. But worse still [for them]..that I'm doing something they COULD'NT POSSIBLY do themselves..despite the obvious [to me] shortcomming in the physical world [for them].


http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/grumpy-vegan-excessive-health-of-raw-paleo-dieters-bad-karma/msg55330/#msg55330


Alot of vegans truly believe that they have the right biological program going..but for people who have some skepticism to that and believe the decision in more spiritually motivated I highly suggest they would read an article like mentioned here above (which is pro vegan). To me anyone with a critical mind should understand the transparency here that many of these beliefs really have nothing to do with physical health but at best theories of human spirituality that are incredibly biased and were distorted through time.


http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/spirituality/raw-veganism-mainstream-how-to-popularize-raw-meat-raw-fat-eating/msg53554/#msg53554


---

so yeah I saw it as saying that this feeling/experience that YOU have is not right...that is a hard sell and inevitably results in harsh discussion...but it would be good to talk about these issues openly...just perhaps without disrespecting peoples viewpoints about things ultimately no one knows. I don't think we should be like other forums in pretending we have the exact solution to the point where certain aspects of things cannot be questioned...no matter how much evidence is there. This forum does seem to be [rightly] focused on like...facts through..so I can see ck (not knowing dorothy from others forums as someone who asks good questions) being a bit off the cuff about what amounts to hypothesis or subjective stuff... after the other recent potential troublemaker who I think I may have located searching for these other topics. 

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/fruitarianismvegan-is-closer-to-a-paleo-diet-than-'zero-carb'/msg13977/#msg13977

[cherimoya_kid]

When someone repeatedly brings up the fact that they were a vegan for 20+ years, that puts me on my guard.  Dorothy even started a thread called something like "I just ate meat for the first time in 20 years.  What should I expect?"

To me, that is bordering on an intentional effort to point out her own veganism. 

By itself, I was going to let it go.  However, the stuff about healing energy from her hands and energy bodies crossed the line.  Those are favorite topics of the spaced-out longtime vegan crowd, and that kind of talk makes me very suspicious. It's not that I'm against it, it's just...that's what those people talk and care about.

I left this forum for 8 months because I got sick of the DurianRider nonsense.  Even when he wasn't trolling, people would talk about his Youtube videos as if he had something intelligent to say. 


Really, I shouldn't even have to explain why I'm tired of all the vegan trolling and nonsense here. Yeah, I'm probably oversensitive to it, but...

Let's ask ourselves....what do we want to encourage here?  Longtime vegans asking us to hold their hands through every bite of meat/fish as they struggle back from vegan extremism?  I think I'd rather encourage people who already either

1. Are experts at this diet.  I'm love to have some more members with my, Tyler Durden's, or Good Samaritan's level of knowledge.  Those are the most valuable members we have.

2. Don't know everything yet, but have been learning about the diet for a while, and are committed to giving it a serious try.

Making a thread every time you eat a bite of meat is a bit much. That, in and of itself, isn't the problem, though (although I'd argue, now that I've been through this situation, that it should be a big red flag).  The problem is vegan obsessions taking over this board. 

I'm not saying anything bannable has yet occurred, just that I'm getting uncomfortable with all the vegan references, etc..

----------Let me make this VERY clear...if anyone doesn't understand why I am hyper-vigilant re: vegan topics here, then they may want to consider leaving this board. -----------

[Dorothy]

Cherimoya - what you are doing here feels no different to me than DurianRider's guerillas coming after me for eating raw eggs, dairy and fish.

I am indeed inexperienced and perhaps this is not the right place for me to come to learn. I guess I did post too much for a forum that was not very active.

If the people at places like gitmr are driven out for eating even eggs and dairy (and especially the likes of me eating fish) and people are driven out of here for saying that they have been raw vegan/vegetarian or saying anything that other vegetarians have said ........ not many places to explore this RAF for those in transition from other raw diets then is there?

What a bummer. I made some big strides today.

The moderator wants me gone so I go. 

I did raw up to this point all on my own, I guess doing raw meat on my own won't be that much different. All these different groups - and I fit into none of them!

Oh well, Phil has my email address if anyone wants it.


 

[Dorothy]

I shouldn't leave without addressing Tyler who wrote: Anyway, what is this "energy body" stuff? Never heard of it, even when I was a vegan, all those years ago.

What I was referring to had nothing to do with being a vegan or a vegetarian per se. I didn't know that vegans talked about it either. Since I was a child I have perceived things that others haven't. Because of it I am often able to see and take pain from another's body with my hands. I should have never brought it up because I actually rarely speak about it. Few understand but when someone is pain they seem to find me quickly enough and want to try. I have helped a great many people with it. I use this skill now to help my husband with his pain when nothing else will so it is important to me atm.

When I tried the cooked meats and the prosciutto it stopped the energy to my hands. That's a very personal thing and I wasn't trying to make any generalized deductions or claims. It was an individual experience.

To leave on a more finished note, I was able to find some fresh, raw, organic, grass-fed ground beef. Today I ate some of it raw and I felt no pain, no digestive upset and no negative affects to the energy to my hands or my overall energy. So far - if anything - I think it might have increased the energy. I will find out later for sure when I do some healing work and I get another person's feedback.

So, the energy stuff only related to me as an individual and my own diet - nothing general. To interpret such things generally, to me, makes no logical sense.

[PaleoPhil]

Those are favorite topics of the spaced-out longtime vegan crowd, and that kind of talk makes me very suspicious. It's not that I'm against it, it's just...that's what those people talk and care about.

Isn't it somewhat natural for newbies who are longterm vegans to carry over some of their topics to here early on? If they're not obvious trolls I try to give them a chance and only sour on them when they persist in negative behavior.

Let's ask ourselves....what do we want to encourage here?  Longtime vegans asking us to hold their hands through every bite of meat/fish as they struggle back from vegan extremism?  I think I'd rather encourage people who already either

1. Are experts at this diet.  I'm love to have some more members with my, Tyler Durden's, or Good Samaritan's level of knowledge.  Those are the most valuable members we have.

2. Don't know everything yet, but have been learning about the diet for a while, and are committed to giving it a serious try.

Isn't that a bit of a catch 22 though, kind of like when people need experience to get a job, but how do they get the experience before they get the job? Someone has to cut them a break to get them started.

The problem is vegan obsessions taking over this board.

I'm fairly carnivore-oriented myself, and from the beginning it seemed like any time I reported less than thrilling results from eating fruit I got criticized for it, so this board has always been more plant oriented than fits my personal needs, but I balance that out by checking out the Dirty Carnivore forum and some LC blogs too. I get lots of useful info at both the plant-oriented and meat-oriented forums and I find it useful at times to get different perspectives, otherwise it becomes a circle jerk, as someone here once wisely wrote.

----------Let me make this VERY clear...if anyone doesn't understand why I am hyper-vigilant re: vegan topics here, then they may want to consider leaving this board. -----------

I think I understand it. Don't agree with it, but I think I understand it.

Dorothy has made great strides from her vegan days and now eats raw eggs, dairy and fish, so that's sufficient for me. Heck, several people have said that just eating eggs and fish is sufficient animal foods to be considered Paleo, even if one regularly eats refined sugar like Wai diet folks tend to!

[cherimoya_kid]

Cherimoya - what you are doing here feels no different to me than DurianRider's guerillas coming after me for eating raw eggs, dairy and fish.

 I think you might fit in better after you've eaten this way for at least several months. I'm not against you posting, but...I have a very low opinion of the spaced-out types who are "sensitives" and "perceive energies", and generally find that they are very drama-heavy. Not that you are drama-heavy, you might not be. I don't know you well enough to say, yet.

This really is nothing against you. I don't think ill of you.  I just like to keep the forum on-track.

I think it's best to avoid talk of energies, etc., because

1. It's not relevant

2. It repels skeptics and atheists

3. It makes us seem unscientific

and I want this board to have plenty of scientific credibility. I also want it to be a place where those of all belief systems can feel comfortable, as long as they are truly interested in rawpaleo diets.

[cherimoya_kid]

Isn't it somewhat natural for newbies who are longterm vegans to carry over some of their topics to here early on? If they're not obvious trolls I try to give them a chance and only sour on them when they persist in negative behavior.
Isn't that a bit of a catch 22 though, kind of like when people need experience to get a job, but how do they get the experience before they get the job? Someone has to cut them a break to get them started.
I'm fairly carnivore-oriented myself, and from the beginning it seemed like any time I reported less than thrilling results from eating fruit I got criticized for it, so this board has always been more plant oriented than fits my personal needs, but I balance that out by checking out the Dirty Carnivore forum and some LC blogs too. I get lots of useful info at both the plant-oriented and meat-oriented forums and I find it useful at times to get different perspectives, otherwise it becomes a circle jerk, as someone here once wisely wrote.
I think I understand it. Don't agree with it, but I think I understand it.

Dorothy has made great strides from her vegan days and now eats raw eggs, dairy and fish, so that's sufficient for me. Heck, several people have said that just eating eggs and fish is sufficient animal foods to be considered Paleo, even if one regularly eats refined sugar like Wai diet folks tend to!

Agreed on the newbies part, but sometimes they get off-topic, and start saying things that could turn off potential members.  Remember the guy who said black people have big butts because they eat chitlins?  He wasn't a jerk, but I had no choice but to put the brakes on him, wouldn't you agree?. It's better if newbies just post a little in the beginning, mainly reading existing threads, and then increase from there.

[PaleoPhil]

It's better if newbies just post a little in the beginning, mainly reading existing threads, and then increase from there.

That's true.

[Dorothy]

The problem with forums is that stereotyping, mis-understandings and rudeness are too easy to slip into because of the anonymity and distance.

I don't think that Cherimoya would have said to me to my face that I have irreversible brain damage from what I ate in the past and especially not have yelled it in a crowded room. I also doubt that he would have told me to just listen and be quiet or he'd throw me out. Nor would he equate talking about having not eaten steak in 20 years or energy perception with being a racist. No one I have ever met has talked to me like that in actual life.

In person to person society there are more cues to pick up on and repercussions to take into account. I or one of the other people present (especially my mate) might have attacked physically. Saying insulting things is not done lightly in person.

I saw that the board was very quiet but in the world of forums that does not necessarily mean the same thing as a room filled with actual people in which I would have known that only the elders were to speak. I understand now that I spoke out of line and was not in tune with the group dynamic. It would have been much better in such a place never to have mentioned my eating history and in such a quiet place to not make comments.

A suggestion (since this is the suggestion section) I would make is that if a new member is communicating in a way that a moderator would like to change, that instead of doing it in public, to use a private, more gentle approach. An example would be perhaps a pm such as "this is a raw animal foods forum and as the moderator I prefer that vegetarianism and veganism and subjects common in those circles to not be mentioned or discussed so I am going to delete your post. I also prefer that new members take a few months reading over previous posts before commenting" would have been appreciated by me.

I will do as you have instructed Cherimoya and be quiet and just read. I've been eating raw eggs, fish and dairy for years (and now understand that you do not consider that paleo) so it is not my place to make comments without enough experience. I will gain a good deal of experience before commenting again. Clearly no particular diet creates good manners. My manners will improve no matter what my diet ends up being. I will use the forum more appropriately. I apologize.

 

[cherimoya_kid]

I or one of the other people present (especially my mate) might have attacked physically.
 

And you're banned, for threatening a mod.  Please do not re-register.

[Projectile Vomit]

If you seriously ban her, then you probably shouldn't be a moderator. You blew this way out of proportion...

[miles]

And you're banned, for threatening a mod.  Please do not re-register.

Haha Chermimoya such a kid.

I think you should check if your water-board has started adding oestrogen or something.

I also think you should allow Dorothy to choose a champion and you should meet him for a fight. If Dorothy's champion wins you lay down your moderator status, if you win Dorothy will leave the forum. That's paleo conflict resolution.

By the way... I understand the problem. Because the forum is generally quiet, if one person starts posting a lot, their opinions are heard over everyone else, so if one person keeps talking about mystic energy fields and spirit bombs it could easily be viewed as the style of the forum by outsiders. This was mildly unsettling to me too. However I think you greatly over-reacted, and what Dorothy said in her last post was excellent. I think you should apologise to her and follow from what she said in her last post.

I don't really care though tbh it's just a forum people can still do paleo diet without it, I just woke up too late today so I'm awake at night with nothing else to do.

[PaleoPhil]

In person to person society there are more cues to pick up on and repercussions to take into account. I or one of the other people present (especially my mate) might have attacked physically.

And you're banned, for threatening a mod.  Please do not re-register.

LOL I'm a mod too and if I ever ban a pussycat of a lady like Dorothy for saying she or someone "might have attacked physically" if they had theoretically been in my presence and I insulted them, then I hope someone will slap me senseless with a dainty pink glove.

I've been eating raw eggs, fish and dairy for years (and now understand that you do not consider that paleo)

If you read this forum enough you'll see that there are some fervent defenders of raw dairy here. I've been on the receiving end of criticism from dairy promoters for being skeptical of claims that dairy is optimal food, but I don't mind raw dairy eaters being in the forum. If they started claiming that raw dairy is truly Paleo in every sense of the word and an optimal food category for everyone, then I would disagree with them and ask them to produce evidence. I do value civility and substance. If they didn't act trollish and kept their pro-dairy posts in the dairy sections of the forum, then I doubt I would ban them.

Heck, Don Matesz of the Primal Wisdom blog is now even claiming that most grains and legumes are Primal, so the definitions of Paleo and Primal vary quite a bit, though I try to be respectful of what the official forum definition of raw Paleo is here (http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/what-exactly-is-a-raw-palaeolithic-diet/), even though I don't agree with it 100%, and I can understand the moderators wanting that.

[Iguana]

However I think you greatly over-reacted, and what Dorothy said in her last post was excellent.

Yes, indeed it was. I concur.

Unfortunately I didn’t follow the whole story. Some posters here have a great talent to write more and faster than normal people can or are willing to read. There’s so much on the web that we have to select what we read, otherwise we spend all our time front of the computer screen reading irrelevant stories. Thus, generally, the longest a post is, the less it is read – unless the writer has some really interesting things to explain and is doing that as shortly as possible, with a minimum of words.

But if we start to ban people for writing too many lengthy posts, then there is another one who should have been banned long ago…

[cherimoya_kid]

Number one, I am absolutely not required to defend my ban of Dorothy.  I am a mod, and this forum is not a democracy.  If we turned it into one, we'd be overrun with vegan trolls. I've had to ban the same person 6 or 8 times in a row, in several cases, both spammers and trolls.  

I'm not automatically in favor of harsh moderation, but the vegans have forced me into this stance.

The fact is, I'd be happy if this forum only had about 15 members with unrestricted posting, and everybody else had to have each post approved manually by a mod.

Why?  Because we only have about 15 members who have much to teach.  The rest are just asking the same questions over and over, 80% of the time.

Not only that, the useful info gets lost when there are too many posts, especially long ones, and ones that drift off topic.  

[Projectile Vomit]

I think it's time for Phil to whip out his dainty pink glove and get to work then.

When I first arrived at this site I probably acted much like Dorothy, albeit without such an emphasis on veganism simply because that hadn't been such a large part of my past. Over time I've matured, and my posts are usually few, short and meaningful (or at least I like to think so, perhaps others will disagree).

The point I'm trying to make is that if you ban everyone who isn't 100% mature in their raw paleo development initially, this forum will become a pretty sparse place. And when there are moderators who are obviously using their status for power tripping, that doesn't help either.

I hope that Dorothy is re-instated, and that she gets a well-deserved apology from cherimoya_kid

[cherimoya_kid]

When I first arrived at this site I probably acted much like Dorothy, albeit without such an emphasis on veganism simply because that hadn't been such a large part of my past. And when there are moderators who are obviously using their status for power tripping, that doesn't help either.

I hope that Dorothy is re-instated, and that she gets a well-deserved apology from cherimoya_kid

Several points--you average about half a post a day or less.  Dorothy averages more than 10 TIMES that amount.  So, no, not even remotely comparable.

Veganism is a creeping cancer in the raw foods community, precisely because of the slow, gradual, and hard-to-reverse effects of the neurological prolems it causes.  It's a vicious cycle.  You are flakey, so you start eating vegan, and then veganism damages your brain so you can't make good decisions, so you continue to be vegan, and so on.  

Eric, I want to make you aware that I have several friends who are suffering severe neurological problems because of long-term veganism.  They know it, but can't think clearly enough to change, and so the problems get worse and worse.  

Power-tripping?  Ban 500 spammers and 200 trolls here, like I have, and then talk to me about power-tripping.  How many forums have you moderated?  How many forums have you seen ruined by trolls and spammers? I've seen a LOT of excellent forums overrun by trolls. Hatrack.com is an excellent example.  It used to get 10 times the posts it does now, but because of 2 or 3 persistent trolls, it's a shadow of its former self. They had an unfortunate banning back in 2003 (the mod was a fool, and was immediately replaced), and haven't banned anyone since, and that was a terrible overreaction to an overreaction.  It had very sad consequences, because that forum was a model of politeness and civility, and was full of well-reasoned, intelligent discussions.  Now it's 50% flame wars.
 

As far as apologies, Dorothy would have to have at least 5 or 6 months of on-topic, non-rambling, substantive, concise posting, before I would consider apologizing for the ban.  It's not about whether she's a worthy person...it's about what she brings to the forum.  This isn't a social club.  It's much closer to being a classroom.  

Classrooms have rules, and for good reasons, Eric.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't want to argue it forever and Dorothy has accepted the banning anyway, as she didn't feel made welcome. After a break period during which she learns more on her own and elsewhere, maybe she could be given another chance, given that Eric, Miles, KD and Tyler seem to agree with me that she deserves one.

Even SuperInfinity/Padraig seemed slightly calmer and more reasonable in his latest incarnation, so anything's possible.

[Projectile Vomit]

...you average about half a post a day or less.  Dorothy averages more than 10 TIMES that amount.  So, no, not even remotely comparable.

Exactly my point. If you traced back to my earlier incarnation (user Sitting Coyote) and had the ability to see my average per-day post count when I started and average length, I'd bet it was very similar to Dorothy's. I was probably even more of a loudmouth than she was, and my posts probably more infantile. But of course I learned a lot, including a lot of humility, and things changed.

As far as apologies, Dorothy would have to have at least 5 or 6 months of on-topic, non-rambling, substantive, concise posting, before I would consider apologizing for the ban.  It's not about whether she's a worthy person...it's about what she brings to the forum.  This isn't a social club.  It's much closer to being a classroom.  

And how's she going to demonstrate that when you've chased her away?

Thought experiment: If I were a raw vegan who knew my health was failing because of a nutritional void in my diet and happened to find this board, and found a kindred spirit in Dorothy's (or someone similar) initial posts because we shared a common history of raw veganism, and then saw how she was attacked and booted from the board for merely talking about her acknowledged failure to make a raw vegan diet work for her, would I feel welcome?

Would I even feel inclined to take the idea of eating raw animal foods to fill the nutritional void in my diet seriously?

One of the stereotypes created for those who consume raw animal foods is that of extreme aggression. That stereotype fits your reaction to Dorothy's posts (and to other things) like a glove. Is that the image you want to convey in this public forum? Is that the image the forum more generally wants to convey when they give aggressive people moderator status?

[Iguana]

I don't want to argue it forever and Dorothy has accepted the banning anyway, as she didn't feel made welcome. After a break period during which she learns more on her own and elsewhere, maybe she could be given another chance, given that Eric, Miles, KD and Tyler * seem to agree with me that she deserves one.

* me too.

[cherimoya_kid]

I'm OK with bringing her back after a cooling-off period, at least in theory.  I have serious doubts that she will come back truly reformed, i.e., staying on topic, keeping posts short, and avoiding overposting...which is why an unbanning seems problematic.  I could be wrong about her, though...and if I'm proven right, it will give me more credibility with this group, so I'm open to it. If I'm proven wrong, then it's a learning experience for me, and potentially everybody.

To PaleoPhil--re: SuperInfinity....yeah, I'm shocked that he is actually sounding pretty sane in this incarnation. I banned him so many times I lost COUNT. He just wouldn't quit.  I half-expected to still be banning him when we were little old men.  He's a perfect example of someone who couldn't take a hint...and I still don't think he took a hint.  I think he just studied the issues more, and has grown in his dietary knowledge.  In other words, I don't think he's any more likely to respond to moderation now, he just happens to be more knowledgeable now, so he's not conflicting with us as much.

To Eric--we don't really appreciate people acting crazy under one username, then coming back later under another.  That's pretty trolly, there, dude. No wonder you're giving me such guff about this.  You couldn't fit in here at first, either.

To be fair, I did plenty of fucking up on forums before I started here, much like some of you have done here.  It's not entirely realistic to compare how a lot of you behave here with how I post here.  I know how to keep it simple, keep it factual, and keep it short and relevant.  Those aren't skills you learn overnight. 

In addition, few of you have probably closely watched a good forum destroyed by trolls over a period of years. Few of you have also probably seen a forum get good and stay good by banning trolls quickly. I have done both of those, and it gives me a unique perspective on people who "don't fit in" on a forum.  Not only that, I am easily irritated by others' ignorance, and I hate everything to do with veganism, the vegan subculture, vegan beliefs, attitudes, etc.. This is because of what veganism did to me and people I care about. 

But, we must all realize that these facts are unique to me.  Please forgive me for my extremes, at the same time you give thanks for the good things I do here, like banning spammers quickly, and offering lots of useful knowledge for free, in an easily-understood way. Well, I hope it's easy to understand.

[TylerDurden]

Eric's original username was his full real name, which is why he wanted it changed. Some people are worried that their job might be affected if their employer knows about their "strange" diet etc..

[Inger]

I hate when people come back with changed usernames. It is so childish.
You get no connection at all and everything is only more confusing. I would not allow such if it was my forum. OK, come back, but on the same name, thanks. Period. Of course, I know this is impossible to follow in practise, as how can you control that, people change emailaccounts easy today. But I very much dislike such a practice. Weakness.

When it comes about Dorothy, I understand CK very well. Dorothy also was fast to point out that raw veganism worked wonderful for her (what it did clearly NOT, read further). No problems. She just changed because of her husbands, she never had any problems all these years. Such statements are dangerous if you look at how many raw vegans have gotten ill. Also died. Dorothy could also not eat raw for long in a row and then she "had" to eat cooked food - because she was feeling too good - ! Ha. I bet it was she got truly unbalanced in her body cause her diet was not optimal THAT is the truth IMHO.
So, it is easy to spread lies without recognising it at all yourself.

Inger