Yo Brits! What is the real story about the London Riots? Looting? Mayhem?

[wodgina]

Well I don't know if you checked out the 'Women' thread, but most of these conversations (TD or not) are often bigoted, racist, etc..its the caveman way essentially. I personally do agree with Mel Gibson and some other folks that at the end of the day we need to acknowledge to some extent that individuals are different and 'not equal' and not always tolerate all this PC crap in discussing such things on those terms. The problem is that he and others tend to take things way too far in not being respectful towards others' point of view and experience. People that are PC need to respect challenges to their viewpoint and people that are 'naturalistic' need to acknowledge that things change and don't have simple solutions.

In other words, just because in nature people have taken on certain roles does not mean contemporary societies cannot change those roles. It does mean they might have consequences particularly for the people who don't benefit as much from such.

As per the looters and unrest which will likely only spread and get worse...there is going to have to be some GOVERNMENT solution to such things that is not just us-against-them violence. IMO as a wake up...basially there isn't going to be an unraveling of social programs or return to some constitutional interpretation (here in the US or elsewhere) to how government functions..nor should there be as these things are unprepared for how truly complex people are. Everything in the past ONLY worked by marginalizing other people (women/blacks etc..) and in creating gaps between individuals more so then other times in history - nevermind in 'nature' - and at a price of removing all kinds of freedoms to drink clean water and find clean food and just live. Even medieval serfs only had to work less then 20 hours a week or something and they always had clean food and booze. The shitty aspects of the world we live in are not due to liberal policies but to industry and greed. Modern liberal policies (like conservative policies) can be a tool for others to capitalize and hold on to such resources and create ignorance.

Its true that constant striving for equality and such brings up a tremendous amount of problems that some would rather not deal with..but hell we get to pick up our food from a store and live in a relatively safe dwelling free of raids from angrier lusting savages.

I think even most people even on the right do not believe we will solve problems by returning to some extreme but just to more simplistic model..that it is not all a big conspiracy.

since people are forced to pay taxes and such, individuals that receive benefits should now be forced to meet more strict requirements to receive them. (I hesitate to write: like in China) which serve as incentives and benchmarks not to be an asshole.

If people want some kind of basic medical coverage (which is necessary even for healthy people in case of physical accidents and such) then they should have to comply with basic rules..like they can't have more then 2 kids. If people are unemployed for more than three months they should HAVE to get up and go to some non-bs public program that makes or constructs things. We should concentrate on the crack down of real food by corporations via government and lobby for policies where all the things that are 'bad' like fast food and such should go the way of cigarettes and just be taxed to death so that only hipsters can afford them as novelty items.

Please quote one bigoted or racist comment from the 'women' thread.

[TylerDurden]

David Cameron is apparently introducing a zero-tolerance policy like in the US. He has an American advisor, a former police officer who suggested the idea.

[raw-al]

Sounds like a good idea.

[TylerDurden]

A number of journalists in the UK are now claiming that the reason behind the riots was that some white and Asian working-class people are also adopting black gang culture.

[PaleoPhil]

David Cameron is apparently introducing a zero-tolerance policy like in the US. He has an American advisor, a former police officer who suggested the idea.

Yeah, the approach is also referred to as community policing, the broken windows theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory and the quality of life approach. All these terms could be viewed as elements used in William Bratton's overall approach.

The idea sounded good to me when the media reported James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling's 1982 proposal of the broken windows theory and their findings and Bratton's success with cleaning up the NYC subways and reducing subway crime seemed to confirm it. I had noticed myself that the Italian North End neighborhood of Boston was more well-kept and seemed to have lower crime than other neighborhoods, though some people told me that this was due to the mafia dealing harshly with petty crime that they weren't running--but that's a form of community policing and zero tolerance enforcement too, just private instead of public.

Since then there have been criticisms. This one is particularly unusual and likely controversial:

In the best-seller Freakonomics, economist Steven D. Levitt and co-author Stephen J. Dubner both confirm and cast doubt on the notion that the broken windows theory was responsible for New York's drop in crime. Levitt noticed that years before the 1990s, abortion was legalized. Women who were least able to raise kids (the poor, drug addicted and unstable) were able to get abortions, so the number of children being born in broken families was decreasing. Most crimes committed in New York are committed by 16- to 24-year old males; when this demographic decreased in number, the crime rate followed. At the same time, Levitt also found that the greater number of police as well an increased incarceration rate had contributed to the decline in crime. Levitt's book is based on published scientific studies that have been subject to peer-review. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Here's another:

Bratton / Timoney;
Zero Tolerance, European Experience
http://www.lacp.org/Articles%20-%20Expert%20-%20Our%20Opinion/020919-Zero_Tolerance-AJ.html
We have been assembling a general consensus of international perceptions of the media-heralded "zero tolerance" policing theory, its patent incompatibility with Community Policing methods and precepts, and the flawed scholarship with which William Bratton and John Timoney presented their results on European speaking tours.

It will be interesting to see whether it works in the UK.

[raw-al]

Thanks PP. I read that also but couldn't recall which book it was in.

BTW Tyler I was giving possible explanations for the issue, not to excuse anyone or justify these activities, but to provide a stepping off point to look into prevention of similar issues in the future.

Prevention is much simpler than mopping up.

This is the idea behind the Paleo diet... prevention

[sabertooth]

A number of journalists in the UK are now claiming that the reason behind the riots was that some white and Asian working-class people are also adopting black gang culture.

I have noticed this phenomenon in my own community. Here in Kentucky we are about as far removed from the ghettos that produced the gang culture as you can get, and yet there are droves of white middle class and working class young men who act, talk, and think as if they were a part of that ghetto thug culture. Within that culture there are a lot of simple minded people who believe it's honorable to retaliate against those who harm their home dogs. There is an eye for an eye mentality in gang life that has led to much of the gang violence in the black community. This may be the case with the riots.

"Why can't we all just get along"
                          Rodney King



 

[raw-al]

I have noticed this phenomenon in my own community. Here in Kentucky we are about as far removed from the ghettos that produced the gang culture as you can get, and yet there are droves of white middle class and working class young men who act, talk, and think as if they were a part of that ghetto thug culture. Within that culture there are a lot of simple minded people who believe it's honorable to retaliate against those who harm their home dogs. There is an eye for an eye mentality in gang life that has led to much of the gang violence in the black community. This may be the case with the riots.

That is exactly the outcome that Christina Hoff Sommers http://www.amazon.ca/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Feminism/dp/0684849569 suggested in "The War Against Boys". It will only get worse.

[goodsamaritan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMvuoGji3yU

Perfect Storm: The England Riots Documentary

http://wideshut.co.uk - A look at the wider context surrounding the recent England Riots.

I was enlightened by this documentary.
Very good.
It's the bankers!!!

[raw-al]

GS,

Interesting, thanks.

Someone should teach spelling to the documentary makers.

You know the crazy thing about all of this is that there is always someone sitting in the background making money off all this. Someone will have to repair their house/store/car so the car builder will make a buck. In Libya someone is making money off of selling the guns to the military and the uniforms. Someone is making money off of supplying the Police with all the riot gear. The price tag for all this is paid for by the "Po folks" who work. The politicians go on spending it like there's no tomorrow.

[wodgina]

Sounds like a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iWKulQzeYw

[Projectile Vomit]

Gotta love Keiser. Straddles the line between tongue in cheek news commentary and humor. On par with Comedy Central and The Colbert Report, in my opinion.

[magnetic]

Now New York is preparing for riots: http://www.infowars.com/new-york-cops-prepare-for-civil-unrest/

In a way, they might materialize as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[wodgina]

Geez...everything is going to plan

[miles]

For his part in decrying social media, Cameron was praised by none other than Communist China, which habitually censors the Internet to hide political corruption or prevent legitimate protesters from receiving media attention. The Communist state routinely uses such powers, which Senator Joe Lieberman has called to be introduced in the United States, to cover up atrocities and abuses against its own citizens.

Twitter, Facebook and Youtube are all banned in China and even sanitized government approved versions of these websites are now being shut down for long periods of time so that they can “remove all politically sensitive content under orders from Chinese internet authorities”.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, despite my misgivings that the Chinese are odious Communists and have a somewhat restrictive government, they always seem to be being more sensible than anywhere else in the world as regards the economy, death-penalty stance and a hundred other things.

[TylerDurden]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/janetdaley/8713091/UK-riots-The-end-of-the-liberals-great-moral-delusion.html

[cherimoya_kid]

Hmm, despite my misgivings that the Chinese are odious Communists and have a somewhat restrictive government, they always seem to be being more sensible than anywhere else in the world as regards the economy, death-penalty stance and a hundred other things.

You do realize that China executes for many crimes other than murder, right?  Here's a quote from the Wiki on the death penalty in China:

"...Capital punishment is applied flexibly to a wide range of crimes, some of which are punishable by death in no other judicial system in the world. Economic crimes such as tax fraud have appeared routinely among the dockets of those receiving the death sentence, as have drug offences. Capital punishment in China can be imposed on crimes against national symbols and treasures, such as theft of cultural relics and (before 1997) the killing of pandas.[7] Corruption, property crimes such as theft, and smuggling gold, silver or other precious metals are also amongst the 55 crimes that are eligible for the death penalty in China.

Capital punishment is also imposed on inchoate offenses, that is, attempted crimes which are not actually fully carried out, including repeat offenses such as attempted fraud. The recidivistic nature of the offenses, not their seriousness per se, is what is adjudicated to merit the capital sentence..."




What do you think?

[TylerDurden]

I am well aware of that, which is why I am so in favour. In the West, fraud and corruption, which are heinous offences which routinely destroy the lives of individuals and families, are usually "punished" with very lenient, short sentences in open prisons because they are seen as white-collar crimes. Same goes for killing wildlife - sentences in the West for killing wildlife are pathetic, since wildlife are a national treasure, and in a way irreplaceable given vanishing habitats etc., execution seems reasonable as a deterrent, sort of like stealing the Crown Jewels in the old days was a capital offence. Plus, I disagree with the absurd notion that human life is somehow worth "more" than the life of an animal. It's all a matter of numbers, so since there are only c.123,000 gorillas in the world and c.6.94 billion human beings, that means that each gorilla's life is worth as much as the combined lives of 56,422.76 human beings.

Theft of other peoples' property seems reasonable as a capital offence. Simple theft could be "rewarded" with the lopping off of a hand, Islamic-style. Smuggling gold and silver probably need a lighter sentence, but each country to its own...

[cherimoya_kid]

I am well aware of that, which is why I am so in favour. In the West, fraud and corruption, which are heinous offences which routinely destroy the lives of individuals and families, are usually "punished" with very lenient, short sentences in open prisons because they are seen as white-collar crimes. Same goes for killing wildlife - sentences in the West for killing wildlife are pathetic, since wildlife are a national treasure, and in a way irreplaceable given vanishing habitats etc., execution seems reasonable as a deterrent, sort of like stealing the Crown Jewels in the old days was a capital offence. Plus, I disagree with the absurd notion that human life is somehow worth "more" than the life of an animal. It's all a matter of numbers, so since there are only c.123,000 gorillas in the world and c.6.94 billion human beings, that means that each gorilla's life is worth as much as the combined lives of 56,422.76 human beings.

Theft of other peoples' property seems reasonable as a capital offence. Simple theft could be "rewarded" with the lopping off of a hand, Islamic-style. Smuggling gold and silver probably need a lighter sentence, but each country to its own...

So a teenager who steals a tube of lipstick on a dare or whim should lose a hand?

Geoff, I don't mean this in an insulting way, so please don't take it that way.  However, I really have to say that your nutritional opinions seem far, FAR better thought through than your opinions on crime, and really, politics in general.

Again, that's not meant as an insult.

[Iguana]

Tribal men share everything: there was no private property within Paleolithic tribes. It’s clear that private property was brought about by agriculture and the end of nomadic life in the Neolithic era. Even a few years ago, the notion of private property was unknown for Polynesians: if you have more than them, they take away from you; if they have more than you, they give you.

Just like the Neolithic and modern diets, the social structures born out of the Neolithic way of life are incompatible with our genetic dispositions and are therefore not sustainable. That’s one more reason why every civilization ends up in collapse.

[TylerDurden]

So a teenager who steals a tube of lipstick on a dare or whim should lose a hand?

Geoff, I don't mean this in an insulting way, so please don't take it that way.  However, I really have to say that your nutritional opinions seem far, FAR better thought through than your opinions on crime, and really, politics in general.

Again, that's not meant as an insult.

Islamic law does not per se insist on cutting a hand off on the 1st occasion, and I don't think they view the theft of just a lip-stick as real "theft" as such. Invariably,  the penalty only happens after the thief has been caught on several occasions(2 or 3 times) stealing something serious. Needless to say, shoplifting of minor items is going to be a very, very rare crime in a country with such a law. Those looters in the UK would never have dared to commit such crime in the face of such a penalty.

[magnetic]

Tribal men share everything: there was no private property within Paleolithic tribes. It’s clear that private property was brought about by agriculture and the end of nomadic life in the Neolithic era. Even a few years ago, the notion of private property was unknown for Polynesians: if you have more than them, they take away from you; if they have more than you, they give you.

Just like the Neolithic and modern diets, the social structures born out of the Neolithic way of life are incompatible with our genetic dispositions and are therefore not sustainable. That’s one more reason why every civilization ends up in collapse.

Tribal men are not members of paleolithic tribes, you conflate the two. Not all tribal men share everything, that is just a flat out lie. Some tribal people may live communally, but most tribes have customs for what property is owned. Gift economies can function like private-property economies, so no currency is needed.. A tribe is just a kinship-based group, a form of large, extended family.

Paleolithic men formed hunting bands, and were the primary providers. Women were of biological necessity forced to care for the young, and limited to hunting small game animals and gathering fruit, berries, edible plants, etc. Egalitarianism is a myth, social stratification the norm. The more intelligent, strong, cunning, etc. would have been given first choice for eating, mating, etc.

Civilization ends in collapse because individuals lose interest in their own affairs, they hand over power to a small group of individuals who promise utopia: free health care, bread and circuses, etc. This socialist utopian thinking comes to dominate a society and then it collapses because no one is producing, there are too many parasites.

It is as if you  had a tribe where everyone was the chief, and no one wanted to hunt. It would not last long.

[TylerDurden]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8713298/London-riots-were-orchestrated-by-outsiders.html

[Iguana]

Tribal men are not members of paleolithic tribes, you conflate the two.

I’m referring to tribal people in Paleolithic era, in case it was not clear enough. I wasn’t there, but it is logical that private property is a consequence of agriculture.

Not all tribal men share everything, that is just a flat out lie.

Ah, you call me a liar because you misunderstood what I wrote… 

Civilization ends in collapse because individuals lose interest in their own affairs, they hand over power to a small group of individuals who promise utopia: free health care, bread and circuses, etc. This socialist utopian thinking comes to dominate a society and then it collapses because no one is producing, there are too many parasites.

So, you know it. It’s invaluable to have somebody with such a great knowledge.