Author Topic: Ron Paul for President of the USA  (Read 250538 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #325 on: December 26, 2011, 05:00:03 am »
Paper backed by precious metals has very limited supply not enough for economy to function properly especially in times of globalization.

Inflation is not a problem.  Economies grow the most when inflation is around 2-3%/year, anything outside of that range has negative effect on the economy.
Paper backed by precious metals is the only thing that is real. The current one leads to wars, and government encroachment on everything.

In the past governments were kept from going into needless wars by the reality of dough-ray-me. They had none to buy ships, guns and soldiers. But with your suggestion they just have to print more. Remember the Weimar Republic and the Continental.

Inflation slowly erodes the buying power of those on the lower end of the economic scale while increasing the wealth of those on the top. This type of thing eventually leads to anarchy as the peasants will only take it for so long as the wealth disparity becomes too wide.

The CEO of Wally World makes more in two weeks than his employees make in a lifetime. It's not a question of fairness, it's a question of when people hit the bottom. At a certain point people will just say no. History repeats itself.
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Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #326 on: December 26, 2011, 05:22:39 am »
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Paper backed by precious metals is the only thing that is real

It maybe real but it does not work.  Find a working alternative first then bash it all you want.

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Inflation slowly erodes the buying power of those on the lower end of the economic scale
I'm not sure about other countries but in the US if you are on the lower end of the economic scale it is mostly your fault.  US has virtually unlimited opportunity to succeed.  My family came to the US with nothing in our pockets and we succeeded because we took the opportunity instead of lying on the couch and play game consoles all day long.

I repeat, inflation of 2-3%/year is the most desirable rate EVERY country is trying to achieve.  It's the indication of stability and economic growth.  If you don't understand it then lower end of the economic scale would happily welcome you.


Offline miles

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #327 on: December 26, 2011, 10:45:41 pm »
Paper backed by precious metals is the only thing that is real. The current one leads to wars, and government encroachment on everything.

In the past governments were kept from going into needless wars by the reality of dough-ray-me. They had none to buy ships, guns and soldiers. But with your suggestion they just have to print more. Remember the Weimar Republic and the Continental.

Leaders within empires always encroached upon everything, and empires always made big invasions to get more money when their's started to run low. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way, but you will never find the solution when you ignore this fact. If Gold is the international currency, then whoever has the most gold-mines will have the most money. If a country has less gold-mines but the power to acquire more, then they will do so, the same as with oil now; and the same as with Rome and Gaul in the past, ETC..! Except that now, people might be able to find out how many resources a country had, and then they would call this 'USA Gold', 'China Gold' etc, and they would still be worth different amounts depending on what useful resources the country had.

As long as everyone can keep up with calculating the exchange rate between currencies and the actual value of a currency, I don't see why it would matter how much a currency is worth relative to the numbers. When people print more money without gaining resources they are just fiddling with the numbers to make it look like they have a different value of money than they really do, it doesn't change the value they really have. VALUE of money is still based upon resources like food, oil, and whatever else people need or want.

Changing the numbers is just to make people spend more, or to trick other countries into selling stuff to them for a lot less than the numbers suggest. This is a desperate attempt to try and kick-start the economy somehow, and take it out of decline, to try and delay people's perception of the decline long enough for something to change, or to do something about it, etc. The decline is a decline in value, due to a decline in resources available. If the decline continues the country must secure more resources, which adds value to their currency, BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY HAVE STUFF TO TRADE.

When another country accepts payment from the USA, they expect that they can use that money at a later date to purchase something of similar value, but at a time when they have more need of it. As long as the country accepting the payment is aware of the TRUE value of the dollar, and the actual resources USA has, it is no problem. Money is an 'owe me one' for resources. It's like if I pretended I had 1000 apples growing in my orchard but not ripe yet, so I asked you to lend me 100 apples, since you have 1000 already ripe apples, and I wrote you a piece of paper saying I owe you 100 apples, and really I only had 10 apples.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #328 on: December 26, 2011, 11:13:18 pm »
It maybe real but it does not work.  Find a working alternative first then bash it all you want.

Code: [Select]
Inflation slowly erodes the buying power of those on the lower end of the economic scale
I'm not sure about other countries but in the US if you are on the lower end of the economic scale it is mostly your fault.  US has virtually unlimited opportunity to succeed.  My family came to the US with nothing in our pockets and we succeeded because we took the opportunity instead of lying on the couch and play game consoles all day long.

I repeat, inflation of 2-3%/year is the most desirable rate EVERY country is trying to achieve.  It's the indication of stability and economic growth.  If you don't understand it then lower end of the economic scale would happily welcome you.

Interesting you say paper backed by gold doesn't work. Yet you give  no example. I gave two examples.

Blaming people on the lower end of the economic scale for their own woes is weak. You suggest that they deserve it because they play Gameboy all day and watch TV. It occurs to me that it would be easy to conclude that you should be in the lower economic echelon as you appear to be doing the same thing. Except in your case you are playing with a keyboard all day writing non-sensical posts on a forum which is about raw foods.  ;) ;D

Anyone who has made substantial amounts of money would be quite willing to cede that whether one works hard all day is not the litmus test of their financial prosperity.

We all like to claim that hard work and honesty were the precursors to our good fortune.

Any book on management, business, etc will tell you that working hard is usually an indicator that the person is not suited to what they are doing and should take up another form of employment. This gets proven over and over. Yet it is not 100% bulletproof. Some people do work very hard and become rich.

I am neither suggesting that poor people are all honest hard working or the reverse that rich are all lazy and indolent. Just that this has nothing to do with anything, it's your justification for talking loose and fast.

Sometimes just the fact of moving to a different locale can make one rich, or having a better mousetrap, or having better connections, or being nefarious, or, or, or.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #329 on: December 27, 2011, 12:59:37 am »
I don't pay any attention to Singapore currency simply because it is so tiny.
How convenient. However, that is actually a good argument, even if inadvertent, for a more decentralized city-state-type society.

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I'm perfectly fine with paper money.
Singapore currency is a paper currency--the difference being it's backed by hard assets. I take it you mean that you're fine with fiat currency, correct?

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It's the only viable alternative.  Remember, for economy to function properly money has to be very liquid, compact, easily divisible into fractions, have relatively long shelf life, and have large enough supply.  Paper money (as legal tender notes) is the only one that fits that requirement.
Again, the Singapore currency is paper legal tender notes, and it does all that.

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Paper backed by precious metals has very limited supply not enough for economy to function properly especially in times of globalization.
As I have pointed out, precious metals are NOT the only way to back a currency so that it is a hard currency. The Singapore currency is not backed just by precious metals but also foreign assets from nations it trades with.

The goal of the Singapore monetary authority is "sustained non-inflationary economic growth" (http://www.mas.gov.sg/). Singapore is one of the most globalized economies in the world. It's not without problems, but they seem to have figured out a decent way to create a hard currency in sophisticated economy. Here is an explanation of how the Singapore currency can grow to meet demand:

Ever Wondered How the Money Supply Grows in Singapore?
http://therichkidwannabe.blogspot.com/2011/01/ever-wondered-how-money-supply-grows-in.html

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Inflation is not a problem.  Economies grow the most when inflation is around 2-3%/year, anything outside of that range has negative effect on the economy.
There's no guarantee that inflation will remain forever within that narrow range, and it hasn't in the USA, historically, if you look beyond the last few decades:



With a fiat currency, there is the potential for worse inflation and even catastrophic inflation and loss of confidence. As the chart shows, the shocks can also go the other way - to drastic deflation. Thus a fiat currency is less robust to unexpected shocks than a sophisticated modern hard currency. That's the point.

What has been the result of Singapore's pursuing a hard currency strategy (and sound fiscal policy)? "Singapore had a current account surplus of about 14 percent of GDP in 1995, the highest in the world, and much of this was used to acquire reserves (which stood at some $67 billion in September 1995, for less than 3 million people)...." (The Case for a Common Basket Peg for East Asian Currencies, http://www.iie.com/publications/papers/paper.cfm?ResearchID=280).

The Singaporean inflation rate has remained relatively stable over the years despite Singapore being a fast-growing tiger economy. They did suffer an oil-price shock in the early 70s, as Singapore is even more dependent on foreign oil than the USA. Recent spiking in commodities and housing prices has caused the inflation rate to rise above the historical averages, but it still remains relatively controlled and along with the increase in inflation has gone an increase in the value of the hard assets that back it.

I don't know if the Singapore currency approach is exactly right for the USA, but it does appear to show that we are not without hope that there is a better way of doing things than our current fragile fiat currency approach. It seems like you're eliminating possibilities before you've even explored them, just so you can argue against Ron Paul.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:47:13 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #330 on: December 27, 2011, 01:19:23 am »
I repeat, inflation of 2-3%/year is the most desirable rate EVERY country is trying to achieve.  It's the indication of stability and economic growth.  If you don't understand it then lower end of the economic scale would happily welcome you.
I do not know your age and therefore your susceptibility to the issue but once you have made your money and you are sitting on it (retirement) you will be much better off to be sitting on gold (or some other solid asset) than on a depreciating currency as it is eroded on an annual basis equal to inflation.

As a person who I am assuming is consuming raw foods with the objective of living a longer and more useful than normal lifespan, this will mean that your sunset years will be spent being concerned about your dwindling (deflated) asset base.
Cheers
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Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #331 on: December 27, 2011, 06:13:30 am »
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Interesting you say paper backed by gold doesn't work. Yet you give  no example.

It stopped working around 1930s in the US.  And shorty after all over the word.  Do you need any more examples?

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As a person who I am assuming is consuming raw foods with the objective of living a longer and more useful than normal lifespan, this will mean that your sunset years will be spent being concerned about your dwindling (deflated) asset base.

If you put your money to work then inflation is not an issue.  If you only depend on fixed income then yes it is a big problem.  I plan not do depend on fixed income/pile of unused cash later in life.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #332 on: December 27, 2011, 07:01:40 am »
It stopped working around 1930s in the US.  And shorty after all over the word.  Do you need any more examples?
The US system where gold guaranteed the paper was done away with in 1913. Speculation is that this is the major contributor to the crash of 1929 and all of the major crashes since then.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #333 on: December 27, 2011, 07:43:41 am »
Money that was attached to gold was considered more trustworthy because it was historically harder for the money changers to manipulate.

Money manipulation is an old problem that may of good men through history have fought with in their day. Anyone interested in the facts of the matter I suggest watch "The Money Masters" as well as the "Secret of OZ".
The Secret of Oz - Winner, Best Docu of 2010 v.1.09.11

We have taken a quantum leap away from attaching our monetary system to hard assets like gold and silver(as in the story of OZ). Now the lord of mammon is ruled by a system of cyber centered credit manipulation.

Money these days is created digitally and its now easier than ever for the money masters to manipulate. Of course I think people are getting wise to the mass corruption currently ongoing and hopefully there will be enough blow-back from the masses of people getting screwed,  to force a change in the way money is being lorded over.

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Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #334 on: December 27, 2011, 09:08:22 am »
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The Singapore currency is not backed just by precious metals but also foreign assets from nations it trades with.

Man, you are really obsessed with singapore dollar.

First, these so called international assets don't mean anything.  If you know what that means please explain what those assets are, how they got purchased and with what currency, and whats' the redemption mechanism.

Second, SMALL emission currency such as Singapore dollar (or New Zeland dollar, or similar) can be easily backed by hard assets.  (not a wise move though).  LARGE emission currency such as Euro, UK pound, Jap yen, and ESPECIALLY US dollar with its reserve currency status cannot be backed up by ANY hard assets.

They are not even backed up by the paper it is printed on.  If everyone went to the bank and asked to withdraw US dollars there will not be enough paper money for everyone.  Don't you see that?  Go to a nearest community college and ask Economics teacher and he will explain you in detail why US dollar cannot be backed by anything other than economic growth trends.

By the way, I've been in Singapore twice, very nice place, you should visit.

Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #335 on: December 27, 2011, 09:17:07 am »
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The US system where gold guaranteed the paper was done away with in 1913. Speculation is that this is the major contributor to the crash of 1929 and all of the major crashes since then.

Not true.  Gold coins were in circulation up until 1933.  You could exchange paper money for gold coins up until around 1933 when US government started taking gold coins out of circulation.  See executive order 6102.  Silver coins were in circulation up until 1964.

The crash of 1929 was caused by greedy people trying to make easy money.

Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #336 on: December 27, 2011, 10:21:59 am »
Another thing is US currency just like currencies of every other major country is not fixable.  Those currencies can't go back to gold standard or any other standard just like we cannot go back in time.

Back to Ron Paul.  Experts are saying if weather is good Iowa would go to Romney.  If weather is bad it'll go to Paul.
 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #337 on: December 27, 2011, 10:36:01 am »
Man, you are really obsessed with singapore dollar.
Good grief. First you spouted the unsupported soundbite that leading currencies "can't be backed up by any other physical means, not gold, not silver, not anything." Then when someone points out examples that suggest that at least some backing might be possible, like the Singapore dollar (or the partially or fully gold-backed US currency and other currencies of the past, which others here have pointed to) and explains it when you go on to make mistaken assumptions about it, you claim they're obsessed with it. If you don't want to see anything about it, then don't make false claims about it or ask questions about it.

The most fervent gold or metal fans probably wouldn't be satisfied with a Singapore-type approach, but it does suggest a type of potential future compromise. These examples aren't necessarily the precise right path for the USA today, but that's not the point. The point is that you've failed to prove that leading currencies can't be backed by any hard assets to any extent at all. Resorting to insults only suggests the weakness of your argument and undercuts your credibility.

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First, these so called international assets don't mean anything.  If you know what that means please explain what those assets are, how they got purchased and with what currency, and whats' the redemption mechanism.
Why should I do your work for you? Also, if you don't even know the answers to those questions, then how can you be so certain that a similar approach wouldn't work for other countries?  Besides, you implied with your "obsessed" comment that you're not interested in the Singapore dollar--so you're either merely feigning interest here or were feigning lack of interest above.

Another thing is US currency just like currencies of every other major country is not fixable.
Isn't that defeatist? Shouldn't you explore the topic further before coming to that dismal conclusion? Would you make no changes at all to the current US currency or federal reserve system?

All currencies are not precisely equal in every way, right? Given that, which nation currently has the best currency, in your opinion and why?

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Back to Ron Paul.  Experts are saying if weather is good Iowa would go to Romney.  If weather is bad it'll go to Paul.
Who do you propose as a better alternative to Ron Paul and why?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 10:46:39 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #338 on: December 27, 2011, 11:50:25 am »
Gary Johnson

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #339 on: December 27, 2011, 11:55:51 am »
Gary Johnson

Maybe in 2016.  Ron Paul has the ball now in 2012.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #340 on: December 27, 2011, 02:24:09 pm »
Problem with Gold backed currencies is who's to say the gold is actually there?

Fort Knox hasn't been audited since the 70's

Don't mind Singapore, been there heaps of times. Jim Rogers (American billionaire, gold bull) lives there...he said"If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia." and back on subject he endorsed Ron Paul.



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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #341 on: December 27, 2011, 03:36:59 pm »
As I recall, the Fort Knox  conspiracy theory went on for decades until 1971 where it was convincingly debunked after an audit was forced as a result of all the pressure from conspiracy-theorists. So, Ron Paul is wrong to try to get another audit, since no US government would dare to rob Fort Knox of its bullion in case of a possible future audit.

Besides, conspiracy theories usually tend to be either  fallacious due to a total lack of truly verifiable information, or self-evident to many due to overwhelming, accurate information appearing, especially with the help of the Internet. To suppress data wholesale so well that not one single person/ex-employee of Fort Knox could tell the world that the gold was missing would imply that the US government was far more intelligent/superhuman and more competent than it actually is.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #342 on: December 27, 2011, 04:30:23 pm »
As I recall, the Fort Knox  conspiracy theory went on for decades until 1971 where it was convincingly debunked after an audit was forced as a result of all the pressure from conspiracy-theorists. So, Ron Paul is wrong to try to get another audit, since no US government would dare to rob Fort Knox of its bullion in case of a possible future audit.

Besides, conspiracy theories usually tend to be either  fallacious due to a total lack of truly verifiable information, or self-evident to many due to overwhelming, accurate information appearing, especially with the help of the Internet. To suppress data wholesale so well that not one single person/ex-employee of Fort Knox could tell the world that the gold was missing would imply that the US government was far more intelligent/superhuman and more competent than it actually is.

40 years ago?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:48:49 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #343 on: December 27, 2011, 04:50:44 pm »
As I recall, there is a government audit once a year, anyway. For someone among the inspectors not to blab to the media about the loss of gold just sounds incredible.  And the government would always be sh*tting themselves about the possibility of a genuine audit forced by someone like Ron Paul. Not likely.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #344 on: December 27, 2011, 05:15:47 pm »
They don't feel fear.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #345 on: December 27, 2011, 10:58:41 pm »
Don't mind Singapore, been there heaps of times. Jim Rogers (American billionaire, gold bull) lives there...he said"If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia."
Yeah, that's how I found out about Singapore's currency being partially backed by metals. When I learned that Jim Rogers had moved there, knowing how much a fan he is of hard currencies and metals, I wondered whether the Singaporean currency might have some hard backing and looked into it. Interestingly, Singapore also chose not to adopt a US-type central bank, instead opting for what it saw as a superior system with a monetary authority, one in which it is difficult for the government to just print money as needed or go deeply into debt. As a result, Merk Investments has said that "Singapore is the new Switzerland" and is investing heavily in their currency.

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and back on subject he endorsed Ron Paul.
Cool.

Jim Rogers supports Ron Paul
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #346 on: December 28, 2011, 03:48:42 am »
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Who do you propose as a better alternative to Ron Paul and why?

I personally like Bobby Jindal to run for president.  I think he is a real deal not a fake like most others.

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Isn't that defeatist? Shouldn't you explore the topic further before coming to that dismal conclusion? Would you make no changes at all to the current US currency or federal reserve system?

I am completely satisfied with US currency and do not see any need for changes.  I get paid in US dollars and I spend US dollars.  Any excess I diversify into different kind of assets.

What is your problem with US dollar?

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Why should I do your work for you?
Because I failed to find any info on it and say it again this so called backing is nothing more but empty words on paper.  Prove that it is any more useful than any other paper money and maybe I'll change my mind.  Here is the follow up question.  Can you go to a bank in Singapore and try to redeem SGD into some of those assets?

Offline ys

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #347 on: December 28, 2011, 03:58:01 am »
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"Singapore is the new Switzerland"

Guess what, Switzerland was suffering because of strong frank and they finally pegged it to Euro.  The same thing will happen to SGD.  Strong SGD will bring Singapore economy down simply because Singapore is heavy exporter.  To combat strong SGD Singapore will either print more paper or peg it to another currency.  If you know any other way please let us know.

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #348 on: December 28, 2011, 04:11:40 am »
This was on today's Yahoo front page.

Ex-Aide: Ron Paul Foreign Policy is 'Sheer Lunacy'

http://news.yahoo.com/ex-aide-ron-paul-foreign-policy-sheer-lunacy-144730256.html

I won't go into details which some were already discussed here.  All I want to say it is next to impossible to win elections with headlines like that.

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Re: Ron Paul for President of the USA
« Reply #349 on: December 28, 2011, 05:29:37 am »
I personally like Bobby Jindal to run for president.
I meant among the people actually running for president. Do you even intend to vote? Can you recommend anyone I may actually be able to vote for?

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What is your problem with US dollar?
You have indicated that you aren't concerned at all about potential problems with the US dollar, so why do you bother to ask?

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Because I failed to find any info on it and say it again this so called backing is nothing more but empty words on paper.  Prove that it is any more useful than any other paper money and maybe I'll change my mind.
That is not believable, as you've already said that you won't "pay any attention to Singapore currency simply because it is so tiny," you implied you're fine with fiat currency, you indicated that "inflation is not a problem," and even though you report personally believing in diversification, you apparently don't see diversification or asset backing as an advantage for government reserves or currencies. Whatever information I've provided you've just dismissed and you haven't bothered to provide any supporting information to justify casually dismissing potential problems with fiat currencies. Your mind seems made up. So what's the point of discussing it further?

http://news.yahoo.com/ex-aide-ron-paul-foreign-policy-sheer-lunacy-144730256.html
That link does include some serious allegations. It will be interesting to see what response Ron Paul provides and how he weathers the latest candidate intense scrutiny. So far every campaign has crumbled under the scrutiny. If Ron Paul falters then I predict that Romney will be the next target, and Republicans who aren't very familiar with him won't like what they learn. Then, who knows, maybe the polls will shift back to Perry again? Obama must be loving this chewing up of Republicans.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 05:41:37 am by TylerDurden »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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